Sram 32-11(?) Cassette and Shimano 2300 Rear Mech.



Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Hi!
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Quick question:

I have an 8 speed 12-25 rear cassette (Shimano) with a Shimano 2300 rear mech and Shimano 2300 8 speed brifters. Not too fancy, I know.
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Problem is that the 12-25 cassette makes climbing really hard, so I was thinking of getting a wider range cassette.

SRAM makes an 8 speed cassette that is 32T and probably down to 11 or 12. It is the standard equiped cassette in an 8 speed Fuji alu road bike, but with Shimano "Claris" shifters, (the new 2300?) and a Sora rear mech.


http://www.fujibikes.com/bike/details/sportif-23-c

REAR DERAILLEUR Shimano Sora CASSETTE SRAM PG-830, 11-32T, 8-speed CHAIN KMC HV700, 8-speed BRAKE LEVERS Shimano Claris Dual Control

Would I need any of the following if I change the cassette from the Shimano 2300 12-25 to the SRAM 11-32?


-New shifters?
-New chain?
-New rear mech? ("Short cage" or "Long cage" or other?)


Will all the gear combinations be usable (even the large disk front with the large disk in rear)?


Thanks.
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alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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If your current rear derailleur has a LONG cage, then you may not need to change it ...
  • While you would ideally have a chain which is 4 inches longer, if you do not shift into the Big-Big combination then your current chain will probably be long enough ..
While it is certainly possible to end up with more chain than the rear derailleur's cage can accommodate, on a ROAD bike the excess which will run slack on the 'return' is cosmetic ...
  • If THAT (a possibly slack chain) bothers you, then you can get a NON-Rapid Rise Shimano MTB rear derailleur (the now-vintage XT 750 SGS is my favorite & recommendation if you can find one that is in good-to-very-good condtion ... ~$30+ in the US, plus shipping). MY preference for the non-Rapid Rise rear derailleur is because I am (of course) using Campagnolo shifters ... A RAPID RISE rear derailleur should give you the advantage of cleaner DOWNSHIFTS to lower gears ...
BTW. Of course, if YOU feel compelled to buying new shifters, then (as I have mentioned too numerous times to count!), get a pair of 10-speed (heck, even 11-speed) CAMPAGNOLO shifters!!! :big-smile:
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Thanks
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These are the components at the moment: (I dont think that the 2300 deraileur has "short" and "long" versions.)


SHIFT LEVERS Shimano 2300 STI
CASSETTE Shimano HG-50, 8-speed, 12-25
CHAIN KMC Z51
CRANKSET Shimano 2300 compact
CHAINRINGS 50/34
REAR DERAILLEUR Shimano 2300


Are extra links available (if more are needed) to make the chain longer or should it be replaced?


Is the rear deraileur OK for that setup? It's this deraileur:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/2300/SI_5XA0A_001/SI-5XA0A-001-ENG_v1_m56577569830673817.pdf


I kinda liked the SRAM Apex group but I was also thinking about Campagnolo. Allthough all the LBS's tell me that finding parts is gonna be really hard, as they are not very well supported by dealers as Shimano...
 

maydog

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Feb 5, 2010
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32 is bit of a stretch for that setup. I bet you could go to 12-30 and a longer chain. A 28 tooth big sprocket is a sure thing.

I used to have a bike that had a 52-42-30 front triple, eight speed rear and I experimented with cassettes that had 32, 30 and 28 big sprockets. I could get the gearing comically low and could spin up hills at any cadence I wanted. What I lost, however, was reasonable steps in gearing on the flats. I found myself often wanting for a gear in between the available steps. Now I am a lot stronger and do not use the 30+ mountain cassettes on my 8 speed and rarely if ever go to the small chainring, even in the mountains.

34-25 is already pretty small, you must have some long steep climbs. With a mix of hills and flats, you may be happier by taking a baby step and trying a 12-28 cassette without changing anything else - you can find SRAM PG850 cassettes for less than $25US.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by Volnix
These are the components at the moment: (I dont think that the 2300 deraileur has "short" and "long" versions.)


SHIFT LEVERS Shimano 2300 STI
CASSETTE Shimano HG-50, 8-speed, 12-25
CHAIN KMC Z51
CRANKSET Shimano 2300 compact
CHAINRINGS 50/34
REAR DERAILLEUR Shimano 2300


Are extra links available (if more are needed) to make the chain longer or should it be replaced?


Is the rear deraileur OK for that setup? It's this deraileur:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/2300/SI_5XA0A_001/SI-5XA0A-001-ENG_v1_m56577569830673817.pdf


I kinda liked the SRAM Apex group but I was also thinking about Campagnolo. Allthough all the LBS's tell me that finding parts is gonna be really hard, as they are not very well supported by dealers as Shimano...
You should consider a NEW chain ...

Of course, a friend OR shop may have enough extra links, BUT you will then have to be worried about the relative amount of wear (aka "stretch") ... certainly, "okay" on a very temporary basis BUT you have to also ensure that the chain's width is the same (i.e., the same model/generation of chain).

Regardless, unless you are in hurry, TRY-BEFORE-YOU BUY ...

Your current rear derailleur MAY be fine because it seems to be "okay" on the FUJI Sportif 2.3 C ...

If you can avoid shifting onto the largest Cogs when the chain is on 50t Chainring, then you can worry about the longer chain when you need to replace it with a new chain.

I do know someone who jammed up an older 8-speed 105 shifter (hey, it was a very long time ago) when the 12-23 Cassette was replace with one which had a 28t Cog BUT the chain wasn't replaced AND the ham-fisted rider who was borrowing [the one person was hoping to sell the bike to the test rider ... it was the LBS's fault because the guy who was doing the test ride had a shop install the new Cassette!!!] the bike (¿apparently?) tried to shift onto the largest Cog while the chain was on the 53t (?) outer Chainring.
FYI. You can buy separate MICHE Cogs ... and then, re-stack your current Cassette with a 27t to 29t Cog (you will have to eliminate one of the smaller cogs, of course). THAT will tell you if you want-or-need an even larger Cog (e.g., 32t).

You have to decide how cost-effective adding a Miche Cog will be ...

I re-stacked a couple of Campagnolo Cassettes which I have ... and, it definitely seemed to be cost effective in those instances.

As far as Campagnolo shifters, you will NOT need any other components to make them compatible with current components on your bike.
The 10-speed Campagnolo shifter + a Shimano 8-/9-speed rear derailleur == 8-speed Shimano Indexing.

NEW 10-speed Campagnolo (Veloce) shifters are available on eBay for about $130+ ...

Why pay more?

You can probably re-sell your Shimano shifters for almost as much!

The cost for USED 10-speed Campagnolo shifters varies widely based on the model & condition.

An 11-speed Campagnolo shifter can recreate 8-speed Shimano indexing if you use the alternate rear derailleur cable anchoring at 9 o'clock (indicated under the column labeled "old Dura-Ace").

Et cetera.
 

oldbobcat

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Aug 31, 2003
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Originally Posted by alfeng
If your current rear derailleur has a LONG cage, then you may not need to change it ...
Alf, thought you would have known that cage length has nothing to do with the maximum rear cog capacity--it's the maximum distance between the axle and the jockey pulley, which is a function of the length of the derailleur body, the length and shape of the hanger, and the offset of the jockey pulley from its pivot on the knuckle. Anyway, the point is moot, it's a short cage with a nominal max cog of 26t.

As maydog mentioned, you might get it to clear a 30. I'm more conservative and I hate pulley rumble, so I'll say you should be able to push the 2300 to 28t.

Anyway, the cheapest workaround, and a pretty damned elegant one to boot, is a new Shimano Claris rear derailleur (RD-2400). It's spec'ed to handle a 32t max rear cog and 37t total wrap, exactly what you're aiming for. Your local bike shop should be able to get you one for around $37 US, or less. A more economical substitute is the SunRace RD-R81 rear derailleur, advertised as a direct substitute for the Claris. You might be able to find these online.

Should you decide you need 1:1 gearing with a 34t cassette, any Shimano MTB rear derailleur made for 8- or 9-speed chains will do the trick. For an appropriate mix of performance (shifting precision), weight, durability, appearance, and price, I recommend the new 9-speed Alivio (RD-430) and Acera (RD-390) units.

And as alfeng mentioned, you will need a longer 8-speed chain.
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Thanks
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Since the 28t cassette is allready beyond the specifications of the derailleur it's probably the maximum I might try and maybe a new chain. Hope that the derailleur wont brake and damage the wheel spokes. One LBS allready told me half a year ago that the chain is allready a bit streched and should be replaced...


As for a more extensive upgrade I might check some campagnolo stuff online, but e-shopping is starting to give me a headache lately, tracking the orders and stuff, so I would prefer to get them for a local shop for 2 euro more or something, but they dont sell them...


Might put the current stuff on sale too, just in case I can get some Campagnolo or Sram 10 speed shifters of the net...


@maydog the climbs are kinda steep. The problem is that, in no way I can climb them with a near 90rpm cadence. It was like weightlifting on the last time I tried! So I am usually just doing some flat rides or some very easy climbs.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
Alf, thought you would have known that cage length has nothing to do with the maximum rear cog capacity--it's the maximum distance between the axle and the jockey pulley, which is a function of the length of the derailleur body, the length and shape of the hanger, and the offset of the jockey pulley from its pivot on the knuckle. Anyway, the point is moot, it's a short cage with a nominal max cog of 26t.

As maydog mentioned, you might get it to clear a 30. I'm more conservative and I hate pulley rumble, so I'll say you should be able to push the 2300 to 28t.

Anyway, the cheapest workaround, and a pretty damned elegant one to boot, is a new Shimano Claris rear derailleur (RD-2400). It's spec'ed to handle a 32t max rear cog and 37t total wrap, exactly what you're aiming for. Your local bike shop should be able to get you one for around $37 US, or less. A more economical substitute is the SunRace RD-R81 rear derailleur, advertised as a direct substitute for the Claris. You might be able to find these online.

Should you decide you need 1:1 gearing with a 34t cassette, any Shimano MTB rear derailleur made for 8- or 9-speed chains will do the trick. For an appropriate mix of performance (shifting precision), weight, durability, appearance, and price, I recommend the new 9-speed Alivio (RD-430) and Acera (RD-390) units.

And as alfeng mentioned, you will need a longer 8-speed chain.

Originally Posted by Volnix
Thanks
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Since the 28t cassette is allready beyond the specifications of the derailleur it's probably the maximum I might try and maybe a new chain. Hope that the derailleur wont brake and damage the wheel spokes. One LBS allready told me half a year ago that the chain is allready a bit streched and should be replaced...


As for a more extensive upgrade I might check some campagnolo stuff online, but e-shopping is starting to give me a headache lately, tracking the orders and stuff, so I would prefer to get them for a local shop for 2 euro more or something, but they dont sell them...


Might put the current stuff on sale too, just in case I can get some Campagnolo or Sram 10 speed shifters of the net...


@maydog the climbs are kinda steep. The problem is that, in no way I can climb them with a near 90rpm cadence. It was like weightlifting on the last time I tried! So I am usually just doing some flat rides or some very easy climbs.
OH!?! There ARE a lot of things which I don't know ...

BUT, the limitations of Shimano (and, I suppose Campagnolo to a lesser extent) rear derailleurs is probably NOT one of them ...

I guess that I need to make a sweeping generalization based on a limited, but meaningful (in my mind!?!) observation of various derailleurs & derailleur hangers ...

The Cog Size which is spec'd by Shimano & Campagnolo is based on the old 70s-80s derailleur hanger as seen on my OLMO ...




You will observe the minimal drop because the derailleur hanger was designed for the Campagnolo Nuovo Record & OTHER vertical rear derailleurs which preceded the Japanese takeover of the component market.

As you may-or-may-not recall, the largest Cog which was spec'd for a Nuovo Record rear derailleur was (also) a 26t Cog.

BUT WAIT. I was able to a Nuovo Record rear derailleur with a 13-28 Freewheel because my Peugeot's derailleur hanger was MUCH LONGER. No, it wasn't ideal ... not even close, but it was usable with "rumble" only with the 42t Chainring (?) & 24t Cog (?!?) combination (due to the orientation of the cage & how the Upper Pulley wheel was situated) but NOT when the chain was on the 28t Cog (again, due to the orientation of the cage ...).

The Nuovo Record's greater limitation (IMO) was the lack of chain wrap because I had paired the 13-28 Freewheel with an XT front crank when I used THAT Crank/Freewheel combination for one ride when I was trying to determine how low a gear I needed ...

BUT, the slack chain was a cosmetic issue

BUT, despite the Olmo's minimal hanger drop, you should also observe that it is a Shimano 105 (RD-5600) rear derailleur whose design I "corrected" by replacing the 11t UPPER Pulley Wheel with a 10t Pulley Wheel.

That might be an 11-32 Cassette (who can remember?!?) ... but, maybe that's an 11-34 because I know that at the moment the Olmo has an 11-34 Cassette ... for the record, I reverted to using an (older) XTR rear derailleur on the Olmo.

OTHER people made the observation that they have successfully used a Shimano Road rear derailleur with an 11-32 Cassette by adjusting the B-screw to provide more clearance for the Upper Pulley wheel so that the 11t Pulley Wheel does not have to be replaced.

At some point, I modified an Ultegra rear derailleur with the cage from an XT rear derailleur (kids, don't try this at home!) because I thought it would be nice to have a little more chain wrap just in case I was going to wuss out with a 50-34 crankset ...

And, here is a 12-34 Cassette with a "corrected" Dura Ace rear derailleur ...



Yes, that chain is too short for that Cassette!!!


Further ...

It must have been about 10 years ago that I re-stacked a 12-25 (?) Cassette for a friend with a 28t Cog. The bike (Giant CADEX) had a "normal" rear derailleur hanger ... although the DA (7400) rear derailleur was/is spec'd to 26t, there was no problem ... and, the chain was JUST long enough that it didn't need to be changed.

In other words (the point of all of the preceding verbiage), the max Cog size is a VERY CONSERVATIVE specification for Shimano's rear derailleurs ...

And so (again, based on the FUJI Sportif 2.3 C being capable of handling the combination of a 50-34 Crankset + 11-32 Cassette) ... trying the existing rear derailleur, first, is a realistic & more economical path to try.

BTW. The previously mentioned CAMPAGNOLO Veloce shifters are from a "real" brick-and-mortar bike shop which apparently sells its excess inventory on eBay.
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Originally Posted by alfeng
And so (again, based on the FUJI Sportif 2.3 C being capable of handling the combination of a 50-34 Crankset + 11-32 Cassette) ... trying the existing rear derailleur, first, is a realistic & more economical path to try.

BTW. The previously mentioned CAMPAGNOLO Veloce shifters are from a "real" brick-and-mortar bike shop which apparently sells its excess inventory on eBay.

The Fuji is equiped with a Sora deraileur:


Quote: REAR DERAILLEUR Shimano Sora


I kinda like the SRAM Apex more then the Campagnolo Veloce... That might be a bit "Pikey"
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but it feels like it better suits the Allez. (There is (or maybe was) only one Campagnolo equiped Specialized bike and it was a "Black Line Super Expensive" or something, model...)


Campagnolo might be a bit "Franken-bike" on the Allez, but then again that is not really an "engineering - based" thought.
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Anyway there are probably lots of MTB 8-speed cassettes up to 28T, which seems to be the safest-cheapest combination to get some extra leverage...


Later on, maybe flipping the whole group for a Campagnolo Centaur or SRAM Apex might be the way to go... Unless I crash the %&%^# A1 alu frame (Lolololol)
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and end up with an E5 tapered head tube Allez with a Shimano 2300 group and a slightly un-true rear wheel.
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maydog

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Feb 5, 2010
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On my latest build, I use a Shimano Tiagra 4600 short cage dérailleur and a 28 tooth max sprocket; it works beautifully. The 4600 dérailleur is rated up to a 30 tooth max cog.

Are the designs of the 2300 and 4600 so different? As Alf mentioned, the 26t max capacity is most likely conservative.

Sheldon's info is ageing but still relevant:
http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#capacity
 

alfeng

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by Volnix
The Fuji is equiped with a Sora deraileur:

I kinda like the SRAM Apex more then the Campagnolo Veloce... That might be a bit "Pikey"
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but it feels like it better suits the Allez. (There is (or maybe was) only one Campagnolo equiped Specialized bike and it was a "Black Line Super Expensive" or something, model...)

Campagnolo might be a bit "Franken-bike" on the Allez, but then again that is not really an "engineering - based" thought.
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Anyway there are probably lots of MTB 8-speed cassettes up to 28T, which seems to be the safest-cheapest combination to get some extra leverage...

Later on, maybe flipping the whole group for a Campagnolo Centaur or SRAM Apex might be the way to go... Unless I crash the %&%^# A1 alu frame (Lolololol)
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and end up with an E5 tapered head tube Allez with a Shimano 2300 group and a slightly un-true rear wheel.
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FYI. Okay, setting aside my bias against SRAM for a moment ...

Unless someone tells you otherwise, if you ever want to amend your bike with any SRAM shifters, you will ALSO need to buy BOTH a new SRAM Front AND SRAM Rear derailleur -- so, it must be closer to a €200 outlay rather than a €100 expense for a set of Campagnolo Veloce shifters via the fore mentioned brick-and-mortar eBay retailer (Velo Mine in Springfield, Illinois ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-Campagnolo-Veloce-Shifters-Silver-Alloy-Power-Shift-10-Speed-fits-Centaur-/251365429196?pt=US_Shifters&hash=item3a868c0fcc ... the current price is HIGHER than what I cited, now, but the cable set is included ... theoretically, that is about a €30 "added value") ...

Campagnolo's LEFT shifter will work with almost any cable actuated Front derailleur.

So, while cosmetics CAN be considered to be a significant factor when choosing a component (or, component group) ... a €100 difference would certainly make the Campagnolo shifters look a lot better to me if all other things were equal ...

Of course, if you sell your current shifters sooner-rather-than-later (that is, before you put too many more miles on them), then you can reduce the net cost by more ... if you opt for SRAM, the gap of the percentage difference of the net cost becomes even greater.

BTW. If you opt for Campagnolo shifters, then there will be two Specialized models which have Campagnolo shifters -- exclusivity can be thought of as a good thing!

BTW2. If you never experienced balky shifting, then you may not appreciate how much nicer the Campagnolo shifters function than Shimano shifters as you downshift when you are already on an incline ...
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Thanks!
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Hmmm, that seems like a good deal... If the customs dont require any import tax.


Might just try the 40euro total new chain and 28T cassette for now...