sram chain link and mixing XTR cassette with 105 derailleur

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Garry Broad, Jun 15, 2003.

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  1. Garry Broad

    Garry Broad Guest

    i've been trying to get a Cannondale caad4 road bike up and running again. i got the bike save two
    wheels and a cassette.

    So...I've built the two wheels, just very standard components (mavic MA3 rims and sora hubs), and
    it's up and running, but I have a couple of questions that I'd appreciate any info on...

    the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur, but I've installed a Deore 9 sp
    cassette (oh dear, mountain bike cassette, right?) and it's taken a bit of adjustment to get it set
    up without the derailleur rubbing on the largest cog of the cassette. The cassette is a HG-50 11-32
    9sp shimano. It shifts fine, but now the gear of large-cog front/large-cog rear has the chain to be
    quite tight, and yet if I add another link to reduce this stress the gear of: small-cog front/
    large-cog rear has the derailleur rubbing on the large cog of the cassette. Wrong cassette?

    And...with the cassette, I bought a new chain - just a basic shimano hyperglide chain
    (HG-53)........but rather than mess around with the special 'new pin' link they provide, I picked up
    a Sram chain link as well (9sp, gold coloured). I've put the link on, but I kind of feels a bit
    loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get the feeling that it 'clicked' into place. Would
    there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?

    thanks anyway garry
     
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  2. M Series

    M Series Guest

    I wouldn't advise using large:large because of the problem you see, chains are not designed to have
    much sideways flex, though I know some folk get away with it and your problem could well be due to
    the size of your sprocket
    (32) and I presume your front large chainring is 53, you will probably get a similar ratio with your
    small front chain ring and a smaller rear sprocket with less flex.

    If I was in your predicament I wouldn't worry about it and simply not use the large chainring with
    the two large sprockets.

    "Garry Broad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > i've been trying to get a Cannondale caad4 road bike up and running again. i got the bike save two
    > wheels and a cassette.
    >
    > So...I've built the two wheels, just very standard components (mavic MA3 rims and sora hubs), and
    > it's up and running, but I have a couple of questions that I'd appreciate any info on...
    >
    > the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur, but I've installed a Deore 9 sp
    > cassette (oh dear, mountain bike cassette, right?) and it's taken a bit of adjustment to get it
    > set up without the derailleur rubbing on the largest cog of the cassette. The cassette is a HG-50
    > 11-32 9sp shimano. It shifts fine, but now the gear of large-cog front/large-cog rear has the
    > chain to be quite tight, and yet if I add another link to reduce this stress the gear of:
    > small-cog front/ large-cog rear has the derailleur rubbing on the large cog of the cassette. Wrong
    > cassette?
    >
    > And...with the cassette, I bought a new chain - just a basic shimano hyperglide chain
    > (HG-53)........but rather than mess around with the special 'new pin' link they provide, I picked
    > up a Sram chain link as well (9sp, gold coloured). I've put the link on, but I kind of feels a bit
    > loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get the feeling that it 'clicked' into place. Would
    > there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?
    >
    > thanks anyway garry
     
  3. Jim Price

    Jim Price Guest

    Garry Broad wrote:
    > the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur,

    You didn't say how much you paid for the bike a fortnight or so ago, but it sounds like its got nice
    stuff on it.

    > Wrong cassette?

    Well, wrong combination of cassette and derailleur - you would really either want a smaller cassette
    or a longer cage derailleur. You can wreck the derailleur by not having enough slack to get it into
    the big-big combination and then accidentally changing into it, so its not really a good situation
    to leave unfixed, unfortunately.

    > I've put the link on, but I kind of feels a bit loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get
    > the feeling that it 'clicked' into place.

    I've got several of these, and the "click" can be a bit variable, but ususally if its fully in
    position its OK. The only one I ever had break was a Taya one, which has a fairly unsatifactory
    means of attachment which makes it easy to bend the side plates.

    > Would there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?

    I suppose it is possible that the pin is a slightly smaller diameter than the Shimano pin, which
    might make it a little loose. This might make it wear a bit faster.

    --
    Jim Price

    http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

    Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.
     
  4. Garry Broad

    Garry Broad Guest

    On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 19:58:47 +0100, "M Series" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I wouldn't advise using large:large because of the problem you see, chains are not designed to have
    >much sideways flex, though I know some folk get away with it and your problem could well be due to
    >the size of your sprocket
    >(32) and I presume your front large chainring is 53, you will probably get a similar ratio with
    > your small front chain ring and a smaller rear sprocket with less flex.
    >
    >If I was in your predicament I wouldn't worry about it and simply not use the large chainring with
    >the two large sprockets.
    >

    Sure. I completely over-looked this - the fact that, although possible, it's not absolutely
    necessary that every gear works impeccably throughout the entire range, specifically when
    'bending/crossing' the chain, which is obviously not ideal.

    It's the first time I've looked at these slightly newer bikes and components, scrabbling around, as
    I do, in the older, secondhand market for bikes where the margin for error is a bit wider really -
    friction shifting with 6-7 speed freewheels, where components can be swapped without a lot of care
    as to what is what'!

    These STI shifters are soooooooooo fantastic though. Very nice.

    cheers

    Garry <moving into 20th century>

    >"Garry Broad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >> i've been trying to get a Cannondale caad4 road bike up and running again. i got the bike save
    >> two wheels and a cassette.
    >>
    >> So...I've built the two wheels, just very standard components (mavic MA3 rims and sora hubs), and
    >> it's up and running, but I have a couple of questions that I'd appreciate any info on...
    >>
    >> the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur, but I've installed a Deore 9 sp
    >> cassette (oh dear, mountain bike cassette, right?) and it's taken a bit of adjustment to get it
    >> set up without the derailleur rubbing on the largest cog of the cassette. The cassette is a HG-50
    >> 11-32 9sp shimano. It shifts fine, but now the gear of large-cog front/large-cog rear has the
    >> chain to be quite tight, and yet if I add another link to reduce this stress the gear of:
    >> small-cog front/ large-cog rear has the derailleur rubbing on the large cog of the cassette.
    >> Wrong cassette?
    >>
    >> And...with the cassette, I bought a new chain - just a basic shimano hyperglide chain
    >> (HG-53)........but rather than mess around with the special 'new pin' link they provide, I picked
    >> up a Sram chain link as well (9sp, gold coloured). I've put the link on, but I kind of feels a
    >> bit loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get the feeling that it 'clicked' into place.
    >> Would there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?
    >>
    >> thanks anyway garry
     
  5. Garry Broad

    Garry Broad Guest

    On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 20:42:52 +0100, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Garry Broad wrote:
    >> the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur,
    >
    >You didn't say how much you paid for the bike a fortnight or so ago, but it sounds like its got
    >nice stuff on it.

    Ha!...this is one of those 'how much do you earn'???...not saying :)

    Well all in all, it's run up to about £210 now....120 for the frame and shifters, and then another
    90 odd for the wheels etc....and now a bit more to put it right....<groan> :)

    >Well, wrong combination of cassette and derailleur - you would really either want a smaller
    >cassette or a longer cage derailleur. You can wreck the derailleur by not having enough slack to
    >get it into the big-big combination and then accidentally changing into it, so its not really a
    >good situation to leave unfixed, unfortunately.

    No, ok. If a job's worth doing..point taken.

    >> I've put the link on, but I kind of feels a bit loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get
    >> the feeling that it 'clicked' into place.
    >
    >I've got several of these, and the "click" can be a bit variable, but ususally if its fully in
    >position its OK. The only one I ever had break was a Taya one, which has a fairly unsatifactory
    >means of attachment which makes it easy to bend the side plates.
    >
    > > Would there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?
    >
    >I suppose it is possible that the pin is a slightly smaller diameter than the Shimano pin, which
    >might make it a little loose. This might make it wear a bit faster.

    It's not the diameter of the pin that was of concern but the width of the link, just seems a
    fraction too big....bit of play there. (Definitely a sram gold, 9 sp). Anyway, I still have the
    original shimano 'new pin'....(don't like those much).....so I guess I can 'seal the chain up' with
    it. What a lot of arsing around if you want to break into one/re-join one of these hyperglide
    chains? I kinda like chain splitters!

    cheers garry
     
  6. M Series

    M Series Guest

    I have a couple of old bikes from the 1980s and a one from the late 90s with 9 Speed Ultegra. It is
    a pleasure to ride. At present I am trying to keep my 1989 Shimano 105 Reynolds 531 going.

    "Garry Broad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 19:58:47 +0100, "M Series" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >I wouldn't advise using large:large because of the problem you see,
    chains
    > >are not designed to have much sideways flex, though I know some folk get away with it and your
    > >problem could well be due to the size of your
    sprocket
    > >(32) and I presume your front large chainring is 53, you will probably
    get a
    > >similar ratio with your small front chain ring and a smaller rear
    sprocket
    > >with less flex.
    > >
    > >If I was in your predicament I wouldn't worry about it and simply not use the large chainring
    > >with the two large sprockets.
    > >
    >
    > Sure. I completely over-looked this - the fact that, although possible, it's not absolutely
    > necessary that every gear works impeccably throughout the entire range, specifically when
    > 'bending/crossing' the chain, which is obviously not ideal.
    >
    > It's the first time I've looked at these slightly newer bikes and components, scrabbling around,
    > as I do, in the older, secondhand market for bikes where the margin for error is a bit wider
    > really - friction shifting with 6-7 speed freewheels, where components can be swapped without a
    > lot of care as to what is what'!
    >
    > These STI shifters are soooooooooo fantastic though. Very nice.
    >
    > cheers
    >
    > Garry <moving into 20th century>
    >
    > >"Garry Broad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >>
    > >> i've been trying to get a Cannondale caad4 road bike up and running again. i got the bike save
    > >> two wheels and a cassette.
    > >>
    > >> So...I've built the two wheels, just very standard components (mavic MA3 rims and sora hubs),
    > >> and it's up and running, but I have a couple of questions that I'd appreciate any info on...
    > >>
    > >> the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur, but I've installed a Deore 9 sp
    > >> cassette (oh dear, mountain bike cassette, right?) and it's taken a bit of adjustment to get it
    > >> set up without the derailleur rubbing on the largest cog of the cassette. The cassette is a
    > >> HG-50 11-32 9sp shimano. It shifts fine, but now the gear of large-cog front/large-cog rear has
    > >> the chain to be quite tight, and yet if I add another link to reduce this stress the gear of:
    > >> small-cog front/ large-cog rear has the derailleur rubbing on the large cog of the cassette.
    > >> Wrong cassette?
    > >>
    > >> And...with the cassette, I bought a new chain - just a basic shimano hyperglide chain
    > >> (HG-53)........but rather than mess around with the special 'new pin' link they provide, I
    > >> picked up a Sram chain link as well (9sp, gold coloured). I've put the link on, but I kind of
    > >> feels a bit loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get the feeling that it 'clicked' into
    > >> place. Would there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?
    > >>
    > >> thanks anyway garry
     
  7. Jim Price

    Jim Price Guest

    Garry Broad wrote:
    > On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 20:42:52 +0100, Jim Price <maxxard[email protected]> wrote: Well all in all, it's
    > run up to about £210 now....120 for the frame and shifters, and then another 90 odd for the wheels
    > etc....and now a bit more to put it right....<groan> :)

    Well, its still looking good value against say a Raleigh R50!

    > It's not the diameter of the pin that was of concern but the width of the link, just seems a
    > fraction too big....bit of play there.

    Doh! This from the SRAM website:

    "Lastly, the PowerLinks may ONLY be used with the corresponding SRAM PowerChains. The tolerances of
    other chains, made by other manufacturers (Shimano, KMC, etc.), will not mate properly with the
    PowerLink system."

    This may be lawyerspeak of course.

    --
    Jim Price

    http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

    Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.
     
  8. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Garry Broad wrote:
    > the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur, but I've installed a Deore 9 sp
    > cassette (oh dear, mountain bike cassette, right?) and it's taken a bit of adjustment to get it
    > set up without the derailleur rubbing on the largest cog of the cassette. The cassette is a HG-50
    > 11-32 9sp shimano. It shifts fine, but now the gear of large-cog front/large-cog rear has the
    > chain to be quite tight

    Doesn't matter as long as the derailleur *can* shift into that combination (in the event of
    accidental shift) with breaking anything. Best not to add a link unless you have to.

    A long cage mech would help if your 105 is a short cage job.

    > And...with the cassette, I bought a new chain - just a basic shimano hyperglide chain
    > (HG-53)........but rather than mess around with the special 'new pin' link they provide, I picked
    > up a Sram chain link as well (9sp, gold coloured). I've put the link on, but I kind of feels a bit
    > loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get the feeling that it 'clicked' into place. Would
    > there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?

    The combination should be ok. Powerlinks don't make much of a "click" so you're probably ok. The
    natural chain tension keeps the link in place.

    ~PB
     
  9. Garry Broad

    Garry Broad Guest

    On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 02:47:22 +0100, "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:

    >Garry Broad wrote:
    >> the shifters are STI shimano 105, as is the rear derailleur, but I've installed a Deore 9 sp
    >> cassette (oh dear, mountain bike cassette, right?) and it's taken a bit of adjustment to get it
    >> set up without the derailleur rubbing on the largest cog of the cassette. The cassette is a HG-50
    >> 11-32 9sp shimano. It shifts fine, but now the gear of large-cog front/large-cog rear has the
    >> chain to be quite tight
    >
    >Doesn't matter as long as the derailleur *can* shift into that combination (in the event of
    >accidental shift) with breaking anything. Best not to add a link unless you have to.
    >
    >A long cage mech would help if your 105 is a short cage job.

    Yes, it is....and I've decided to swap the cassette for a 12-25 road cassette. I'd rather not have
    that kind of rubbing/noise going on, then whoever ends up with this bike can change as desired.

    >> And...with the cassette, I bought a new chain - just a basic shimano hyperglide chain
    >> (HG-53)........but rather than mess around with the special 'new pin' link they provide, I picked
    >> up a Sram chain link as well (9sp, gold coloured). I've put the link on, but I kind of feels a
    >> bit loose, it seems to be holding, but I didn't get the feeling that it 'clicked' into place.
    >> Would there be a compatibility problem between the link and the chain?
    >
    >The combination should be ok. Powerlinks don't make much of a "click" so you're probably ok. The
    >natural chain tension keeps the link in place.
    >

    Right, ok. Typically with these things, doing a Google search(which I'd normally do before posting)
    can sometimes leave you more confused than before you began. Some say the sram/shimano combination
    is ok, some not. I'll give it a whirl.

    cheers

    garry
     
  10. Pete Biggs wrote:

    > A long cage mech would help if your 105 is a short cage job.

    Or even if it's a long cage. IIRC the long-cage road mechs are only rated to cope with a large
    sprocket of 27T, which, natch, no-one makes. They will work with a 28, but I reckon anything bigger
    than that is pushing it a bit.

    Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
  11. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Dave Larrington wrote:
    > Pete Biggs wrote:
    >
    >> A long cage mech would help if your 105 is a short cage job.
    >
    > Or even if it's a long cage.

    Might be right and I would prefer to use an "MTB" mech with that cassette myself - but I have read
    of reports it road mechs working "fine" with cassettes that go up to 32.

    > IIRC the long-cage road mechs are only
    > rated to cope with a large sprocket of 27T

    Ratings tend to be conservative - especially the capacity ones.

    > , which, natch, no-one makes.

    Shimano and Marchisio do.

    ~PB
     
  12. David Nutter

    David Nutter Guest

    Dave Larrington <[email protected]> said:
    > Pete Biggs wrote:
    >
    >> A long cage mech would help if your 105 is a short cage job.
    >
    > Or even if it's a long cage. IIRC the long-cage road mechs are only rated to cope with a large
    > sprocket of 27T, which, natch, no-one makes. They will work with a 28, but I reckon anything
    > bigger than that is pushing it a bit.

    I'm using an Ultegra long-cage mech with a mountain bike cassette with a large sprocket of 28t. The
    screw that controls the jockey wheel/sprocket proximity is screwed almost all the way in, so
    (theoretically) there should be space for at least a 29t sprocket. I haven't tried it though, and
    since I have a triple, monster rear sprockets aren't necessary for me.

    Regards,

    -david
     
  13. David Nutter wrote:
    > since I have a triple, monster rear sprockets aren't necessary for me.

    Old-time aviators used to say of altitude that while too much was occasionally an embarassment, too
    little was invariably fatal. With gear-inches, the reverse is true.

    Commuting bike: 12-34, 24-38-50 Technical standby bike: 14-34, 28-44

    Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
  14. David Nutter

    David Nutter Guest

    Dave Larrington <[email protected]> said:
    > David Nutter wrote:
    >> since I have a triple, monster rear sprockets aren't necessary for me.
    >
    > Old-time aviators used to say of altitude that while too much was occasionally an embarassment,
    > too little was invariably fatal. With gear-inches, the reverse is true.
    >
    > Commuting bike: 12-34, 24-38-50 Technical standby bike: 14-34, 28-44

    Heh, one of these days I will undoubtedly encounter a hill I can't climb with what I have (lowest
    gear is 30x28). Then everyone can have a good laugh as I push the bike up to the top ;)

    All the bits on this bike were on special offer or eBayed (excepting the wheelbuilds) so I didn't
    get to pick and choose the exact gearing or stick to one groupset, explaining the eclectic mix of
    stuff I have[1]. I think over time I will slowly replace most of the drivetrain with mountain bike
    bits for durability and probably lower the gearing a bit too.

    Even with loads of groceries in the Super C's I haven't found a hill in Durham that's hard to climb
    with the gears I have *touches wood*

    Regards,

    -david

    [1] I think I have at least one component from each of the road groups except Dura Ace on there,
    along with some Deore LX just for fun...
     
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