Sram Force Vs. Dura Ace
- Thread starter Eager Rider
- Start date
Now that you've gotton the predictable 'Campag rulz dude' responses, I'll give a review of my recent experiences with Shimano and SRAM.
As an overview and in chronological order over the last 6 years I've used, Ultegra 9sp, Chorus 9sp, Chorus 10sp, Ultegra 10sp and SRAM Force 10sp. I've also had a couple of loaner bikes with DA 10sp post 2004 for short periods of time (~1 month at a time).
Firstly I can't actually tell much difference between Ultegra and DA. The DA is lighter on a scale, I can tell the difference on the bike. The shifting on the DA I perceive to be marginally crisper (whether it is or just me thinking it is .. who knows). I like Shimano in the fact that it is ubiquitous, so you break something or need an emergency repair and your LBS down the road is pretty much going to always have the part in stock. From a performance point of view, it doesn't shift as nice as the Chorus 10sp which is crisp and precise, braking isn't quite as solid. Why did I shift from Campag after a few seasons if I liked it? Parts availability was one part, interchangability of neutral wheels in races I was doing was another, the biggest thing however was that I had XT/XTR on my MTB's and the external BB's sold me, something not available on Campag until this year, and given they decided to jack the price on Chorus by not offering alloy cranks was imo simply extortion.
This year I built a 'dream' bike and had a long think between Chorus/DA/Force. I've only ever had very good experiences with SRAM mtb gear over the last 2-3 seasons and figured I'd try it as much out of curiosity as anything else. I put the full Force group on with the exception of the cranset, which I put R700 Shimano compacts on. The reason for this is the frame has an Italian thread BB and SRAM/Truvativ use a proprietary BB interface and I really didn't want to be stuck looking for BB's. In terms of performance the shifting is very crisp, very much like Campag. The double tap system you'll either love or hate I'd guess, I personally find it intuitive. And do date have only wrong shifted on it once about 5 minutes into my first ride. I've raced the bike about 5-6 times since completing the build, including one race in horrible wet conditions where everything ended up caked in mud. Didn't miss a shift, including climbing, out of the saddle chasing and sprinting. The shifting on the front derailleur is a lot smoother than the Shimano (the Shimano is horrible and a pet hate of mine). Still neither compare to the micro trim on the Campag setups, which is to be fair a creature comfort. Performance wise, they all shift from the big ring to the small and back again. Of all the systems I've had, the Chorus 10sp was the only one to ever drop a chain on a shift on the FD. Braking on the Force calipers leaves the Ultegra for dead, which is the weakpoint of the Ultegra group imo. It's also better than DA though the gap isn't so big. The Shimano calipers have a nice feature in the micro adjust centering screw. If you change wheels regularly this is great. You don't have it on the Force calipers.
One final note is that people have questioned the whole missing tooth concept on the SRAM cassette (which is common to both the Force and Rival groups, it would be nice if they did a Ti version ala DA in the same design to finish off the group). After putting the bike together, my Cervelo Soloist Team which has Ultegra was about due for a new cassette and chain. I put on a 12-23 SRAM 1070 cassette and gave it a new DA chain (as I bought a bunch of chains a while back when they were on sale). It was actually a nice control as I got to compare shifting with only a change in cassette. I found shifting became crisper on the SRAM cassette, ymmv.
So I'd say I'd pick the SRAM group again over both DA and Chorus, from a performance point of view. From a durability point of view, it's really to early to draw an opinion as to how SRAM fares. Having said that I've had issues with Shimano (9sp group was a pig), and the Chorus 9sp group was great until the left ergo needed a rebuild after 10,000k. Yes yes the Campag proponents will all tell me well at least you can rebuild it (right for $100 in AU), and I've never had a Shimano STI fail and the 9sp ones I had ended up with about 25,000k on them when the bike was retired.
Like all internet reviews ... YMMV!
--brett
As an overview and in chronological order over the last 6 years I've used, Ultegra 9sp, Chorus 9sp, Chorus 10sp, Ultegra 10sp and SRAM Force 10sp. I've also had a couple of loaner bikes with DA 10sp post 2004 for short periods of time (~1 month at a time).
Firstly I can't actually tell much difference between Ultegra and DA. The DA is lighter on a scale, I can tell the difference on the bike. The shifting on the DA I perceive to be marginally crisper (whether it is or just me thinking it is .. who knows). I like Shimano in the fact that it is ubiquitous, so you break something or need an emergency repair and your LBS down the road is pretty much going to always have the part in stock. From a performance point of view, it doesn't shift as nice as the Chorus 10sp which is crisp and precise, braking isn't quite as solid. Why did I shift from Campag after a few seasons if I liked it? Parts availability was one part, interchangability of neutral wheels in races I was doing was another, the biggest thing however was that I had XT/XTR on my MTB's and the external BB's sold me, something not available on Campag until this year, and given they decided to jack the price on Chorus by not offering alloy cranks was imo simply extortion.
This year I built a 'dream' bike and had a long think between Chorus/DA/Force. I've only ever had very good experiences with SRAM mtb gear over the last 2-3 seasons and figured I'd try it as much out of curiosity as anything else. I put the full Force group on with the exception of the cranset, which I put R700 Shimano compacts on. The reason for this is the frame has an Italian thread BB and SRAM/Truvativ use a proprietary BB interface and I really didn't want to be stuck looking for BB's. In terms of performance the shifting is very crisp, very much like Campag. The double tap system you'll either love or hate I'd guess, I personally find it intuitive. And do date have only wrong shifted on it once about 5 minutes into my first ride. I've raced the bike about 5-6 times since completing the build, including one race in horrible wet conditions where everything ended up caked in mud. Didn't miss a shift, including climbing, out of the saddle chasing and sprinting. The shifting on the front derailleur is a lot smoother than the Shimano (the Shimano is horrible and a pet hate of mine). Still neither compare to the micro trim on the Campag setups, which is to be fair a creature comfort. Performance wise, they all shift from the big ring to the small and back again. Of all the systems I've had, the Chorus 10sp was the only one to ever drop a chain on a shift on the FD. Braking on the Force calipers leaves the Ultegra for dead, which is the weakpoint of the Ultegra group imo. It's also better than DA though the gap isn't so big. The Shimano calipers have a nice feature in the micro adjust centering screw. If you change wheels regularly this is great. You don't have it on the Force calipers.
One final note is that people have questioned the whole missing tooth concept on the SRAM cassette (which is common to both the Force and Rival groups, it would be nice if they did a Ti version ala DA in the same design to finish off the group). After putting the bike together, my Cervelo Soloist Team which has Ultegra was about due for a new cassette and chain. I put on a 12-23 SRAM 1070 cassette and gave it a new DA chain (as I bought a bunch of chains a while back when they were on sale). It was actually a nice control as I got to compare shifting with only a change in cassette. I found shifting became crisper on the SRAM cassette, ymmv.
So I'd say I'd pick the SRAM group again over both DA and Chorus, from a performance point of view. From a durability point of view, it's really to early to draw an opinion as to how SRAM fares. Having said that I've had issues with Shimano (9sp group was a pig), and the Chorus 9sp group was great until the left ergo needed a rebuild after 10,000k. Yes yes the Campag proponents will all tell me well at least you can rebuild it (right for $100 in AU), and I've never had a Shimano STI fail and the 9sp ones I had ended up with about 25,000k on them when the bike was retired.
Like all internet reviews ... YMMV!
--brett
Brett, you just had to spoil it don't you? 
For Campag shifter rebuilds, there are great video clips on YouTube.com.
Take apart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t0ttU_Jm0Y
Put it back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSAnAmBXYSY
How much are those G springs for the Campag shifter? I should enquire about the price as that's pretty much the only thing that requires replacement over time.
For Campag shifter rebuilds, there are great video clips on YouTube.com.
Take apart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t0ttU_Jm0Y
Put it back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSAnAmBXYSY
How much are those G springs for the Campag shifter? I should enquire about the price as that's pretty much the only thing that requires replacement over time.
thats true, though if you want to compare apples and apples, chains and cassettes are cheaper on Shimano than Campag (at least here in Aus, and thats mail order pricing).
at the time, i'm sure i could have ordered the parts myself (~$25US ex shipping) from memory and done it myself with some good instructions. i just made the decision to put it in with someone who'd done it before and have them do it for me. no real regrets.
--brett
at the time, i'm sure i could have ordered the parts myself (~$25US ex shipping) from memory and done it myself with some good instructions. i just made the decision to put it in with someone who'd done it before and have them do it for me. no real regrets.
--brett
I don't get any of you.
campy shifters are the best. Why? Because they have a lot of f**king trim.
Also they can easily be rebuilt, not like shimano. (that is if you have any type of mechanical logic)
Lastly is the fact that all campy shifters are pretty much the same, from veloce to record (except that bushing vs bearing thing that doesn't matter really) (this means you can buy something for not a lot of money that works well)
Finally you go a buy yourself a jtek shiftmate and buy cheaper shimano components to run with your campy shifters.....
End of story! You get the best cheapest combo possible.
campy shifters are the best. Why? Because they have a lot of f**king trim.
Also they can easily be rebuilt, not like shimano. (that is if you have any type of mechanical logic)
Lastly is the fact that all campy shifters are pretty much the same, from veloce to record (except that bushing vs bearing thing that doesn't matter really) (this means you can buy something for not a lot of money that works well)
Finally you go a buy yourself a jtek shiftmate and buy cheaper shimano components to run with your campy shifters.....
End of story! You get the best cheapest combo possible.
free_rideman said:
i like the trim on them but seriously it's a convenience nothing more or less and lets you be a bit more sloppy in your setup. my ultegra 10sp gets a little rub when the chain is totally crossed 39/13 and 39/12. the solution of course is shift into the big ring and find a gear. the sram is about the same. even with the trim all the way out the 10sp Chorus i've had rubbed when it was crossed. so yes while the trim is a nice little creature comfort, what problem does it solve exactly?
yes yes i acknowledged they (chorus 9sp) i had were able to be rebuilt. they had about 10,000km on them when they started slipping gears. i've never had a shimano sti actually do this and require replacement anyway, so for me it was something of a moot point during the functional life of the equipment.
personally i like the way campag shifts, i like their groups as a whole. is there any noticable performance benefit from me using campag/shimano during racing (or for that matter force). none of them have ever failed me at a critical point so the answer is no.
--brett
Well I have three bikes with 10 sp Ultegra. They have all 'allegedly' been professionaly set up by a LBS. They all have derailleur rub in one or more gear. And not silly maximum cross overs from biggest front to biggest rear cog etc. My Campag bikes never suffer from that kind of irritation, because the design accounts for allowing some trim.sideshow_bob said:
As far as I am concerned I have spent far more on Shimano based bikes before realising my mistake, but I won't in future. Shimano design and sell a shabby front derailleur solution which has a distinct tendency to rub, and on longer rides in particular it annoys me intensely.
My bikes infuture will be Campag, as long as they maintain the front trim in their designs and continue to have the same level of performance and development in the rest of their components. (And I think their wheels are really excellent as well.)
SRAM? Can't comment as I don't have any. But the reviews I have read in the UK magazines have generally not been all that enthusiastic. And then there's the safety recalls on the brakes ... I would stick to something that had a strong track record, and Campag certainly has that.
KellyT said:
In one post you say anyone with an iota of mech skill can rebuild a Campag ergo, in the next people are setting up your FD? Bit odd but okay. I'm sure you'll find many people here who are adequately able to setup Shimano FD's so that they don't rub. My Ultegra is a case in point, no rub. It's not that hard (and Shimano STI's do actually have a single stop trim function). What I will agree is the shifting is much smoother on both Campag and SRAM FD's than Shimano which I find clunky. But as I said in my first post, all of them functionally shift from the big to the small ring and vice versa.
KellyT said:
True their wheels are exceptional from the top down.
KellyT said:
Shimano and Campag have all had their issues. Am I the only one remembering those sexy Record aero posts from the 80's that had the unfortunate tendency to snap? Cervelo have recalled bikes in the last year, Cannondale their SI cranks, Time have recalled pedals etc etc. Unless it's a trend it's not really reflective of much. In fact Campag made some garbage brakes that were recalled in the 80's after making components for what 50 years previously and developing that 'strong track record'.
For every great review there is an average or **** review, happens for most products. Personally I'd rather form my own opinions. In the case of SRAM Force, it's to date been pretty good. That view may change down the track if there were say durability issues, or they re-engineered and dropped backward compatibility etc.
--brett
Where did I say someone with an iota of mechanical skill could rebuild an Ergo? If I did I had too much red wine that night! (Which is possible.) I know they can be rebuilt, but I wouldn't do it myself, I'd break it for certain. I prefer to have my LBS set up the bikes as I know they are way better at it than I am.sideshow_bob said:
But the whole design of the Campag FD is much less of a dog. If the Ultegra FD is set up 100% spot on, it seems to be okay. But the one time it was, some of our local 'roads' (they would have been better to have left the few that the Romans finished) gave my trek a formidable kicking ... and then the rub was straight back again.
Sorry, I'd like to say something good about Shimano FD's, I own such a lot of them. But they're ****.
I went to Performance Bike to get some stuff the other day and noticed the price tag on a bike, can't remember the brand, anyhow I thought it was Chorus but when I got closer saw it said SRAM, #1 it looked fugly up close and #2 the shifting was weird, overall? I didn't like SRAM looks and feel.
That's why I keep using Dura Ace, and I've been using Dura Ace since 2003 but before that it was Ultegra, when I couldn't afford DA.
That's why I keep using Dura Ace, and I've been using Dura Ace since 2003 but before that it was Ultegra, when I couldn't afford DA.
KellyT said:
Sorry my mistake, I confused you with another poster in this thread.
KellyT said:
So umm .. if they are dialled in correctly then they are fine. Like I said in my first post, the nice thing about Chorus is it lets you be a little more sloppy in your setup. Personally once my FD's are dialled in they really only get looked at every few months. If yours are going out of tune on a single ride no matter how poxy the roads are there is something amiss in the setup.
--brett
I've tried all 3 group sets, but focusing on DA and SRAM.
SRAM feels a lot quicker and crisper, and I almost went with them over DA, but they are still a new product. After they work out their kinks, it should be a great groupset. There is no trim on the SRAM front derail. currently (modification for next year they are addressing) and that was a turn off for me. Once again, SRAM was very crisp.
I love DA still though. While it is not a quick as SRAM, I like how it feels and I like the hood design a little bit better than SRAM.
SRAM feels a lot quicker and crisper, and I almost went with them over DA, but they are still a new product. After they work out their kinks, it should be a great groupset. There is no trim on the SRAM front derail. currently (modification for next year they are addressing) and that was a turn off for me. Once again, SRAM was very crisp.
I love DA still though. While it is not a quick as SRAM, I like how it feels and I like the hood design a little bit better than SRAM.
Similar threads
