Srm use for 24 Hour MTB Training

[Fenner]

After a very successful season so far 4th Elite National 24 hour Champs and leading the Vet National Series all training without power I have taken the plunge and invested in a set of Srm's for the road bike to try to make the difference and win next years 24 Hour Champs. I have a sports science background and have worked a little with power but mainly in teating with a Kingcycle in the lab. My question is how best to incorporate my Srm's into my training program? Do I focus on trying to continue developing the aerobic efficiency with long L2 type rides as I did this year or do I continue to develop my FTP and top end with interval work so that when doing the 24 at 65 - 75% this represents a higher % power. I would still try and do the 2 long back to back rides of 4 -8 hours as I did this year. Does this make sense? Overall do I continue with LSD or Intervals based on increasing FTP

 

[Roadie_scum]

After a very successful season so far 4th Elite National 24 hour Champs and leading the Vet National Series all training without power I have taken the plunge and invested in a set of Srm's for the road bike to try to make the difference and win next years 24 Hour Champs. I have a sports science background and have worked a little with power but mainly in teating with a Kingcycle in the lab. My question is how best to incorporate my Srm's into my training program? Do I focus on trying to continue developing the aerobic efficiency with long L2 type rides as I did this year or do I continue to develop my FTP and top end with interval work so that when doing the 24 at 65 - 75% this represents a higher % power. I would still try and do the 2 long back to back rides of 4 -8 hours as I did this year. Does this make sense? Overall do I continue with LSD or Intervals based on increasing FTP

1.) Just ride for a little while to get an idea of what your training actually looks like normally. Use SRM just for post ride analysis not pacing or interval setting. I'm not saying to do this for too long, but I think it helps at the start so you understand what you normally do. You can even tape over the display so it doesn't distract you.


2.) An actual answer to your question...

Have you thought about straight reverse periodisation as an approach?

Or something like this:

L2/3 Focus
L5 Focus
L4 Focus
L/2/3 Focus

My idea: raise the roof in terms of FTP, VO2max but get really specific in the last two months with long intervals, tempo and at least 1-2 LSD rides a week (except the S means steady not slow...)

You might want to check out Dave Harris's blog (I think you can google it), he has a lot of interesting stuff about endurance MTB training with power.

And (unpaid testimonial) WKO+ is essential if you are going to take training with power seriously. It adds so much value and is relatively cheap for what it gives.

By the way, whatever you choose to do, studies have confirmed there is a substantial advantage to doing it wearing bright pink. Have you ever considered training in this colour, or at least racing in it? It adds 12w at FT and makes Simon happy.

 

[PSUcycling]

By the way, whatever you choose to do, studies have confirmed there is a substantial advantage to doing it wearing bright pink. Have you ever considered training in this colour, or at least racing in it? It adds 12w at FT and makes Simon happy.

really? sweet! i'll have to go back to my powerdata from when i switched to pink... velossimoracing.com

 

[Fenner]

1.) Just ride for a little while to get an idea of what your training actually looks like normally. Use SRM just for post ride analysis not pacing or interval setting. I'm not saying to do this for too long, but I think it helps at the start so you understand what you normally do. You can even tape over the display so it doesn't distract you.


2.) An actual answer to your question...

Have you thought about straight reverse periodisation as an approach?

Or something like this:

L2/3 Focus
L5 Focus
L4 Focus
L/2/3 Focus

My idea: raise the roof in terms of FTP, VO2max but get really specific in the last two months with long intervals, tempo and at least 1-2 LSD rides a week (except the S means steady not slow...)

You might want to check out Dave Harris's blog (I think you can google it), he has a lot of interesting stuff about endurance MTB training with power.

And (unpaid testimonial) WKO+ is essential if you are going to take training with power seriously. It adds so much value and is relatively cheap for what it gives.

By the way, whatever you choose to do, studies have confirmed there is a substantial advantage to doing it wearing bright pink. Have you ever considered training in this colour, or at least racing in it? It adds 12w at FT and makes Simon happy.

Another member of Simon's dream team awesome. Many years ago I was trained by a leading physiologist in England who was very much developing the hypothesis of focusing on increasing top end and by doing so increasing the power at any given percentage of this max power (aerobic). The SRM as a tool for analysing and prescribing training load is very much suited to this and I have no problem in incorporating its use into any normal (Olympic distance XC or Road Race) program that I have written for myself by adapting previous heart rate based programs as percentages of my FTP (350 Watts).
My major interest is I suppose more a training related thread of will I be better off doing massive volume and thus try to develop oxidative enzymes, cappiliaries ect, or work on a similar basis to my more regular plans with a base, build and race phase?
Will VO2 and FTP remain if I do not continue to train at those intensities and only do large volume steady rides?

 

[Roadie_scum]

Another member of Simon's dream team awesome. Many years ago I was trained by a leading physiologist in England who was very much developing the hypothesis of focusing on increasing top end and by doing so increasing the power at any given percentage of this max power (aerobic). The SRM as a tool for analysing and prescribing training load is very much suited to this and I have no problem in incorporating its use into any normal (Olympic distance XC or Road Race) program that I have written for myself by adapting previous heart rate based programs as percentages of my FTP (350 Watts).
My major interest is I suppose more a training related thread of will I be better off doing massive volume and thus try to develop oxidative enzymes, cappiliaries ect, or work on a similar basis to my more regular plans with a base, build and race phase?
Will VO2 and FTP remain if I do not continue to train at those intensities and only do large volume steady rides?

Yeah, you did stuff with Peter Keen right? Ric Stern, who is a regular on this forum studied with him too I think. Do you know him?

With your background, you no doubt know that the things you talk about (enzymes, capillaries, etc) can be developed with high end work as well and may actually be better developed with high end work. Despite this, I think it is instructive that causes of fatigue in ultra-endurance events aren't well understood and you should train specifically, eg, build a good foundation at race pace L2/L3. However, if you don't work on VO2max, FT, etc, you definitely won't maintain them as compared to your well trained state. I think at some point in the season, it is important to incorporate this kind of work, at it is important to do a little bit of maintenance year round. However, for a guy like you doing ~90-120 minute XC races is probably a good way to do your high end work and you already do this.

I would incorporate some VO2max stuff as maintenance year round but not do it ridiculously. Maybe a focus in preseason/build to raise the roof reverse periodisation style.

A mate of mine is a top 20 Hawaiian Ironman with a Masters in Ex Phys and he has had some success with this kind of program (best bike split in several world class events). He does intervals in january for FT/VO2 and then builds distance doing L2/3 endurance rides. One hard tempo ride a week ~2 hours 300W+. It ends up being big volume, but never slow. His endurance rides ~5-6 hours are 250W+ and he focuses on volume at this pace for most of the year. He cuts volume seriously in the taper, but still does a few long rides, and adds back in some intensity. Physiologically, priming the bike at an IM is probably similar to MTB ultra-endurance. His power-time curve is very flat. That is, he has a very high FTP relative to VO2max, and even higher 4-6 hour power relative to VO2max. He burns fat very well.

It really all depends on what racing you want to do throughout the season and where you want to peak. I guess the basics always speak loudly to me: be specific, but cover all your bases. Also, WKO+ is the shiz-nit in terms of understanding and planning your peaks. Can't recommend it highly enough.

Anyway, I know you know a hell of a lot about this stuff, probably more than me. Hope this is kind of helpful. Let us know what you end up doing, would be interested.

Have you read the Dave Harris blog? Andy Coggan's chapter on power training in the USAC coaching manual? Or even better, his book with Hunter?

 

[Fenner]

Yeah, you did stuff with Peter Keen right? Ric Stern, who is a regular on this forum studied with him too I think. Do you know him?

It was with Dr Passfield and he worked along side Peter at Brighton Uni.

With your background, you no doubt know that the things you talk about (enzymes, capillaries, etc) can be developed with high end work as well and may actually be better developed with high end work.

I was under the impression that high end work damaged fragile capillaries and some coaches adhere to 30+ hours of LSD in the Base phase. I think Mr Kabush is on this sort of program.

Despite this, I think it is instructive that causes of fatigue in ultra-endurance events aren't well understood and you should train specifically, eg, build a good foundation at race pace L2/L3. However, if you don't work on VO2max, FT, etc, you definitely won't maintain them as compared to your well trained state. I think at some point in the season, it is important to incorporate this kind of work, at it is important to do a little bit of maintenance year round. However, for a guy like you doing ~90-120 minute XC races is probably a good way to do your high end work and you already do this.

I would incorporate some VO2max stuff as maintenance year round but not do it ridiculously. Maybe a focus in preseason/build to raise the roof reverse periodisation style.

A mate of mine is a top 20 Hawaiian Ironman with a Masters in Ex Phys and he has had some success with this kind of program (best bike split in several world class events). He does intervals in january for FT/VO2 and then builds distance doing L2/3 endurance rides. One hard tempo ride a week ~2 hours 300W+. It ends up being big volume, but never slow. His endurance rides ~5-6 hours are 250W+ and he focuses on volume at this pace for most of the year. He cuts volume seriously in the taper, but still does a few long rides, and adds back in some intensity. Physiologically, priming the bike at an IM is probably similar to MTB ultra-endurance. His power-time curve is very flat. That is, he has a very high FTP relative to VO2max, and even higher 4-6 hour power relative to VO2max. He burns fat very well.

It really all depends on what racing you want to do throughout the season and where you want to peak. I guess the basics always speak loudly to me: be specific, but cover all your bases. Also, WKO+ is the shiz-nit in terms of understanding and planning your peaks. Can't recommend it highly enough.

Well Bro the National 24's have been moved and are now at Easter so not long after the end of the MTB season, working on the program your mate follows this would work perfectly to slip back into my long back to back Monday Tuesday rides and work and back.
Thanks mate sometimes when you train yourself you need to bounce ideas off of people to cement the theory.

Anyway, I know you know a hell of a lot about this stuff, probably more than me. Hope this is kind of helpful. Let us know what you end up doing, would be interested.

Have you read the Dave Harris blog? Andy Coggan's chapter on power training in the USAC coaching manual? Or even better, his book with Hunter?

Got the book as soon as it came out and have read it soooo many times, will check out the other info cheers

 

[acoggan]

By the way, whatever you choose to do, studies have confirmed there is a substantial advantage to doing it wearing bright pink. Have you ever considered training in this colour, or at least racing in it? It adds 12w at FT and makes Simon happy.

Simon Jobson??

 

[Fenner]

Simon Jobson??

No this is not reference to S Jobson, however the thread was an attempt to raise the debate that you hve been contributing to (with great interest) on the L2 discussion. As an physiologist I have been trying to find studies/articles on training for ultra events such as solo 24 hours and I can't find much. Would you still consider L2 a waste of time for ultra events? Do you believe that by working on L4/L5 intervals and raising FTP that performance in such events would be improved to a higher degree than a larger L2/L3 volume based program?
This was then linked to the use of Srm's as a training aid as they are going to be far more usefull if I am doing L4/L5 type stuff.
This season by the way I came off the back of a large volume based build up for the National 24's and have smashed the regular Vet XC races with lap times that would have put this old man up with the top 10 elites at nation level!