SST "milestone"

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by postal_bag, Dec 26, 2006.

  1. postal_bag

    postal_bag New Member

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    Well, if my FTP is underestimated, the good news is this sweet spot thing is working for me. Today I did a 3 x 20' session to change things up, and I have to say that after the first two intervals, which I performed as 1' under/1' over (~92% to ~112%), I felt like I was just getting warmed up. I had had no intention of doing a 3rd one, but I decided to try 20' "steady". The AP for the last 20' was 103% FT, and the last 10' was at 106%.

    Anyway, the AP for the 60' not including the two, 5' recovery intervals was 102%, or ~7w higher than my FTP. I feel like I have my FTP estimated quite accurately, unless it's going up faster than I can keep track of. I don't want to test too often. I guess I like to incorporate the "tests" into my workouts.

    The mental fortitude that I gain from the 90' to 3 hr sessions seems to be paying off in my shorter efforts. I will try a 5' max effort maybe tomorrow. I think I can probably do at least 120% FTP even though I haven't been training at this intensity.
     


  2. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

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    it's definitely working. Good stuff ... feels like cheating though doesn't it? :)
     
  3. bikeguy

    bikeguy New Member

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    That seems extremely unlikely.

    -bikeguy
     
  4. whoawhoa

    whoawhoa New Member

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    Why? It's not called "peaking," it's called "improvement." If an athlete isn't all that close to their genetic potential, there's no reason why they shouldn't be improving their fitness this time of year.
     
  5. postal_bag

    postal_bag New Member

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    That's what I am hoping. It can't hurt to believe that this is the case. I guess, for my purposes, I would define peaking as attaining the highest possible FTP, while maintaining the balance of an "all-arounder" at the other durations/intensities.
     
  6. bikeguy

    bikeguy New Member

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    I realize I may sound a bit negative, but in terms of FT/lactate power ratio, he is already. Only way to improve would be to raise the whole bar, reduce drag or lose weight while holding power. Postalbag didn't say what his ratio of FT to 5 minute power is, but I suspect it's pretty close.

    -bikeguy
     
  7. joemw

    joemw New Member

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    If one is at 76% for FT/5MP, how much room for improvement might you suspect?

    After his last revelation of more info, I do think Postal Bag is underestimating his FT, especially considering these are workouts done solo, not in race conditions.
     
  8. whoawhoa

    whoawhoa New Member

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    I agree, given his 3x20 workout I'd say he's underestimating it by ~10 watts. Given how rapid his improvement seems to be he's probably nowhere near his ceiling.
     
  9. bikeguy

    bikeguy New Member

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    Max 90% lactate threshold/FTP power, 90% FTP/5 MP power. You'll never have a really high absolute value for either FTP/LT without a high absolute 5 MP. That doesn't mean, that you'll have a high LT/FTP with a high VO2 power. :)

    -bikeguy
     
  10. joemw

    joemw New Member

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    Using Dr. Coggan's chart, if the same person (maybe Boardman?) is used to set the values of 7.6w/kg for 5 minutes and 6.5w/kg for FT, that'd be a ratio of 85.5%. 90% would be astronomical, maybe even a bit suspicious, for anybody with exceptional AWC. As it stands, I do have a high absolute value for 5MP, and if there is potential for my FT/5MP ratio to climb by ~10%, that'd be pretty sweet.

    Still interested to see Postal Bag's FT/5MP ratio.
     
  11. bikeguy

    bikeguy New Member

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    The data I have available are for world class professional cyclists, but I'm equating 5 MP to the last 4 minute block of a ramped test. Since the protocol had a 1 minute rest period between blocks, I think it's reasonable to equate them. E.g, Indurain FTP/5MP at 89%. 510 w/573w. Indurain wasn't known for his prologue speed so I don't think he had much AWC. I think Boardman maybe a bit off the scale for 5 MP, as nobody has approached his 4 k pursuit time.

    Yeah, 10% is possible. I doubt myself that I'll see much of an improvement in FTP/5 MP ratio because I know I have a fair amount of FT fibers.

    I'm also interested in seeing Postalbag's 5 MP power.

    Oh, happy new year too.
     
  12. postal_bag

    postal_bag New Member

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    As luck would have it, I completed my 5' test today. 428w - not bad, since I have done nothing but L3-L4 training for the past few months. I haven't done structured vo2max intervals since late last winter. I was expecting ~400w.

    So, if I am understanding this correctly, my FTP/5MP is just shy of 78%. Are you saying that I could concievably get to 90%? My question is how much, if any, could one expect to raise their ~5' power through VO2 max focus?

    This is all very interesting because I don't like to have limiting beliefs, or delusions.:)
     
  13. bikeguy

    bikeguy New Member

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    Yes, 90%, but only if you're mostly composed of slow twitch fibers (like, in the legs and butt). Raising FTP would naturally raise your LT too. Raising 5 minute power and the whole bar? I think 5-10% is very possible for an already well trained cyclist. It may be possible to get more, if your body is that type.

    -bikeguy
     
  14. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

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    Hmmm ... what was the ramp rate for the test? Somehow I believe Indurain could have held more than 573W for 5-min when fully rested.

    FWIW my own 5-min/FTP ratio is currently 82% after doing plenty of SST & L4 training and hardly any L5 or higher. I.e, I suspect I could tack on 5% to my 5MP without a lot of trouble and that would knock me down to 78% or so.

    90% seems a very big stretch.
     
  15. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Me in 2006: functional threshold power 300 W, 5 min power 354 W, ratio 0.847.

    My wife in 2002: functional threshold power 260 W, 5 min power 373 W, ratio 0.696.

    (As an aside: note that the higher your functional threshold power, the higher your anaerobic capacity must be to maintain a constant ratio.)
     
  16. NomadVW

    NomadVW New Member

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    The notion of getting FTP within 90% of 5MP is fantastic - especially for those of us slow twitch guys. It also helps to set a reasonable goal marker. At the beginning of my off-season I tested right at 77% of 5mp for FTP.

    Would one structure their off-season workout on the premise of raising 5MP to a point which they can say 85-90% of that 5MP is their goal for FTP going into that season? For instance, if one wants a goal FTP of 360, do they train VO2max primarily for at least a 5MP of 423 thus bringing "the bar" up so they have room to bring that FTP up to 85%ish of their 5MP.

    Certainly a way to find that marker when to transition their workouts from one primary type to the other.
     
  17. joemw

    joemw New Member

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    I can't say for sure, but what comes to mind is a 35w jump each block. There would certainly be accumulated fatigue before the final 4 minute block.
     
  18. joemw

    joemw New Member

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    I still say 90% is quite ambitious. If I could push my FTP to within 90% of my 5MP I'd be the most dominant rider on the planet on my best days. As it is, I'm nowhere close to that:rolleyes:

    85% would be a hell of an accomplishment.
     
  19. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

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    okay.

    FWIW, I've done a couple of the CCA-approved ramp tests with 3-min steps and 30W increase per step (no rest periods).

    Despite the substantial delta.watts and modest step time, my best AP over the last step was some 30W under my best 5MP at the time (430 versus 460W).

    I figure big Mig could do perhaps 620W or so putting his FTP ratio around 82%. Someone must have a real figure for his 5MP?
     
  20. bikeguy

    bikeguy New Member

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    I wonder how fast Indurain could have done a 4 k pursuit? I don't think he really could have done much better, or he would have the record. 90% is for world class cyclists with clear slow twitch makeup in the lower body, but with lower absolute values should be possible for an amateur. Of course it's a stretch. :D

    -bikeguy
     
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