Stage 15 - Monday, July 23: Foix - Loudenvielle - Le Louron, 196km

[Powerful Pete]

Why is everyone on this forum beating up on Astana for not supporting Kloden?

I think it is obvious that this team was built to support Vino. That's it. The sponsors do not really care if another rider could win the TdF. It is a team built for Vino exclusively, and they could give a hoot if Klodi is in the top five...

Just my two cents...

 

[whiteboytrash]

....Contador I can sort of forgive as he's been ripping the legs off everyone the whole year - Paris Nice and the final day time trial at Tour of the Basque country.

Landis won Paris-Nice last year and bar his overacting stage 17 he didn't attack like Contador has.... Landis was more like Evans...... to be honest I've never seen anything like it... well not since Riis took off up the Hauntcam... stopped.... looked around.... waited for everyone to catch-up and took off again...... David Walsh speaks of the stage that he and every other journalist in the room that day knew what was going on but didn't want to write it.... they preferred the Phil Liggett version.... again Discovery have destroyed the Tour de France.....

 

[Frihed89]

What race is this? Who is the leader? The guy from Kazakhstan, he can't win this race. My belief is that, f Rasmussen can't win it, there is only one other person who can, Contador. The race is over except for these two.

Unless, it's 2005 Deja vu all over again and the two leaders collapse emotionally.

It could happen, too.

 

[limerickman]

Off topic : those who viewed the entire stage might agree with me that Foix -Loudenvielle stage was the most picturesque region in this years TDF.

I've been to France several times - but not to that particular region.
But I'll make sure that next time when we go, we will get to that region.
Magnificent.

 

[LaarsX]

If any of you wanna see Mr 60%'s fine win at Hautacam...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDCGSsOaLDA

 

[Denia]

Off topic : those who viewed the entire stage might agree with me that Foix -Loudenvielle stage was the most picturesque region in this years TDF.

I've been to France several times - but not to that particular region.
But I'll make sure that next time when we go, we will get to that region.
Magnificent.

Picturesque indeed. Another lovely area is around Wednesday´s stage. I did the Quebrantahuesos Marcha (a Spanish sportif) in June that crosses over from Spain to France and back again and includes Col de Marie Blanque. Not far from there we climbed the 29km Col de Portalet to re-enter Spain and I was entranced by how fantastic the scenery is all around that area.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Cobblestones - Agree with much of what you say. On the one hand we are seeing some great battles, some unexpected twists and plenty of drama . . . on the other hand much of it stretches the realms of credibility. Ras´s ITT followed by his ability to keep with Contador yesterday will be exposed, sooner or later, as being pharma-assisted. Contador is a fantastic talent but the shadow od Disco/Postal hangs over him - why would he not be exposed to the same medical assistance as Hamilton, Landis, Armstrong and Basso? The young apprentice has the most learned of masters around.

And, in amongst all the cheers for Vino´s "brave" ride yesterday, is there not a similarity with Landis´s miraculous recovery last year? How does he go from being a complete pyhsical wreck one day to a climbing God the next? With all that has gone before with the T-Mobile doping programme and his strong relationship with Dr Ferarri I, for one, can´t see anything to celebrate.

I will continue to watch the action, but as a beaten dog will never fully trust his master, I will never fully trust the results of the pro peloton. Hey, sometimes it throws me a delicious snack but I know the next kick in the ass won´t be far away.

very well written, and i'm not trying to be rude but but i have to say that either you are just ignorant of the sport of cycling or are/were in a huge state of denial... doping has awlays been a part of pro cycling.. pro cyclist have always tried to find the best trainer/training methods and the best drugs to get them over the line 1st. if you don't reconize that you just don't know anything about pro cycling. now they just have more sofisticated training mehods and more sofisticated doping regimes... but doping regimes have always been there. you seem to be harkening back to the good ol' times, but i think those good ol' time are just a figment of a lot of people imagination.. they never existed... pro cycling has always been dirty, deal with it.

the only thing that worries me is that now the press sees they can sell advertising by exposing doping in cycling and the police can earn brownie pts and this is chasing away sponsors.. so maybe it's time to do something about it, since without sponsors pro cycling will die...

but the bottom line is that it's time to wake up, for as long as you, me and everyone has been watching cycling it always been a training and doping arms race.. time to drop the group denial... while i'm at it there is no Santa.. it's your parents.. there's no easter bunny, tooth fairy etc...

[Edit] holy ****... Denial that's funny[Edit]

 

[Denia]

very well written, and i'm not trying to be rude but but i have to say that either you are just ignorant of the sport of cycling or are/were in a huge state of denial... doping has awlays been a part of pro cycling.. pro cyclist have always tried to find the best trainer/training methods and the best drugs to get them over the line 1st. if you don't reconize that you just don't know anything about pro cycling. now they just have more sofisticated training mehods and more sofisticated doping regimes... but doping regimes have always been there. you seem to be harkening back to the good ol' times, but i think those good ol' time are just a figment of a lot of people imagination.. they never existed... pro cycling has always been dirty, deal with it.

the only thing that worries me is that now the press sees they can sell advertising by exposing doping in cycling and the police can earn brownie pts and this is chasing away sponsors.. so maybe it's time to do something about it, since without sponsors pro cycling will die...

but the bottom line is that it's time to wake up, for as long as you, me and everyone has been watching cycling it always been a training and doping arms race.. time to drop the group denial... while i'm at it there is no Santa.. it's your parents.. there's no easter bunny, tooth fairy etc...

[Edit] holy ****... Denial that's funny[Edit]

I´m no pro-cycling geek but I don´t consider myself ignorant of the sport or in denial (liked you´re play on that by the way) either. Perhaps you read between the lines too much. I know the sport is and always has been linked to performance enhancing drugs and nowhere in my post says otherwise.

I do have a propensity to believe that many in the sport would like it to be clean and, on a great day of racing, I would love to think it was being contested fairly. My point was that, almost inevitably, negative news will surface to taint the moment. Maybe it shouldn´t bother me but it does.

You, like many others, accept - perhaps embrace - that ultimately the sport´s philosophy is "let the best cheat win" . I, on the other hand, occasionally drift into a state of denial and hope that some of these world class athletes are capable of winning without resorting to drugs. Call me a dreamer rather than ignorant, it doesn´t sound so vicious.

Now where did I put my letter to Santa . . .

 

[doctorSpoc]

I´m no pro-cycling geek but I don´t consider myself ignorant of the sport or in denial (liked you´re play on that by the way) either. Perhaps you read between the lines too much. I know the sport is and always has been linked to performance enhancing drugs and nowhere in my post says otherwise.

I do have a propensity to believe that many in the sport would like it to be clean and, on a great day of racing, I would love to think it was being contested fairly. My point was that, almost inevitably, negative news will surface to taint the moment. Maybe it shouldn´t bother me but it does.

You, like many others, accept - perhaps embrace - that ultimately the sport´s philosophy is "let the best cheat win" . I, on the other hand, occasionally drift into a state of denial and hope that some of these world class athletes are capable of winning without resorting to drugs. Call me a dreamer rather than ignorant, it doesn´t sound so vicious.

Now where did I put my letter to Santa . . .

sorry if my words came out sounding "vicious" it was not intended. i was just trying to not beat around the bush... i think there is just too much of that. i don't "embrace" doping in pro-cycling, but pro-cycling is what it is and i accept it for what it is.

this talk of.. well this guy is cheating or now you even get, this guy is cheating MORE than this other guy... it's just ridiculous... doping is officially outside the rules, but realistically it has been tolerated and accept and even encouraged for as long as pro-cycling has existed. the intolerance for doping is a recent phenomena. even after the Festina affair the UCI and rider associations played some lip service and went right back to the status quo.. their Sergeant Schultz interpretation.. i see nothing, i hear nothing...

it's a mess and the riders are getting shafted and no one else takes any kind of a hit... rules get changed right out from under them... there is some investigation going on somewhere so.... you know how you've been training 30hrs a week? well that was all for not... we don't have anything official against you, but you can't ride anyway. that's basically what happened to most of the Puerto riders... then the Spanish investigation get shut down... ok, never mind... you're clear to ride now... oh.. unless you are a big name because we are going to make an example of you to show we are doing something (even though we aren't).. the hypocrisy is incredible... it's a complete mess... what about longitudinally testing, profiling or whatever they want to call it? if they are going to stop drugs, then stop it, but if they are going to do the same bs testing like they've always done, then just forget about it. testing it's a waste of time and money.. just hire a bunch of private investigators and follow some riders around.. that's what the police do and they seem to have been getting way better results than those stupid test.. it's way better than spending tens of millions on useless tests... sorry for the rant... I'm still ****** i didn't get to see Basso square off against Ullrich last year... so they were doped to the gills.. so were all their predecessors... i really don't care i just wanted to see the battle.

 

[Denia]

sorry if my words came out sounding "vicious" it was not intended. i was just trying to not beat around the bush... i think there is just too much of that. i don't "embrace" doping in pro-cycling, but pro-cycling is what it is and i accept it for what it is.

this talk of.. well this guy is cheating or now you even get, this guy is cheating MORE than this other guy... it's just ridiculous... doping is officially outside the rules, but realistically it has been tolerated and accept and even encouraged for as long as pro-cycling has existed. the intolerance for doping is a recent phenomena. even after the Festina affair the UCI and rider associations played some lip service and went right back to the status quo.. their Sergeant Schultz interpretation.. i see nothing, i hear nothing...

it's a mess and the riders are getting shafted and no one else takes any kind of a hit... rules get changed right out from under them... there is some investigation going on somewhere so.... you know how you've been training 30hrs a week? well that was all for not... we don't have anything official against you, but you can't ride anyway. that's basically what happened to most of the Puerto riders... then the Spanish investigation get shut down... ok, never mind... you're clear to ride now... oh.. unless you are a big name because we are going to make an example of you to show we are doing something (even though we aren't).. the hypocrisy is incredible... it's a complete mess... what about longitudinally testing, profiling or whatever they want to call it? if they are going to stop drugs, then stop it, but if they are going to do the same bs testing like they've always done, then just forget about it. testing it's a waste of time and money.. just hire a bunch of private investigators and follow some riders around.. that's what the police do and they seem to have been getting way better results than those stupid test.. it's way better than spending tens of millions on useless tests... sorry for the rant... I'm still ****** i didn't get to see Basso square off against Ullrich last year... so they were doped to the gills.. so were all their predecessors... i really don't care i just wanted to see the battle.

No problem - agree with most of the above. Now that Vino has been busted the furore will kick off again.

 

[doctorSpoc]

No problem - agree with most of the above. Now that Vino has been busted the furore will kick off again.

Holy ****... what next!!

 

[Cobblestones]

Good post - Vinos win yesterday was akin to Floyd's stage 17 last year

I think you called it.

Dr. Spoc, I don't think Denia or most of the other people here are in denial. I have to admit I don't know much about the state of professional cycling before the Lemond years, but from there on I don't think I have had any illusions. On the other hand, I would still argue that the doping problem can be tackled some time in the future. I don't see doping as inevitable. This year's TdF is as good a starting point as ever. Race organizers, cycling federations, the riders themselves, sponsors, journalists and the public in principle should all have an interest in a clean sport.

The problem is that cheating in cycling brings such a huge performance boost which can make a TdF winner out of any utterly unremarkable rider. Hence even a few cheaters can destroy the sport. This creates an atmosphere were the incentives are huge and 'everyone' has to dope to make the playing field more level (forget for a moment that dope has different effects on different athletes). Therefore, I think, the organizers, athletes, teams and federations have such a lax attitude (although they sure put up a nice show). My hope is that journalists (and I'm quite encouraged by the investigative reports in particular from German news outlets such as Spiegel and Suddeutsche Zeitung) expose the problem in greater detail, which in turn creates sufficient disgust in the public mind and pressure on the sponsors to maybe bring about a change. I'm not too hopeful with the Festina scandal in mind, but I think the outrage today is much greater, and certainly sports journalism has stepped up the game quite a bit since then, so maybe there's a little bit of hope.

 

[doctorSpoc]

...The problem is that cheating in cycling brings such a huge performance boost which can make a TdF winner out of any utterly unremarkable rider...

this is just not true!!

Hello.. did you just read the last post or the news flashes? Vino has tested positive for blood transfusion after the TT.. cycling has just hit some kinda new low... this is totally f!cked... maybe this will be the impetus to actually do something for real this time?

 

[IH8LANCE]

Hello.. did you just read the last post or the news flashes? Vino has tested positive for blood transfusion after the TT.. cycling has just hit some kinda new low... this is totally f!cked... maybe this will be the impetus to actually do something for real this time?

Yes, like stop the sham of dope testing. Let them dope, let them ride, and let us talk about cycling rather than blood transfusions. Sometimes I think this forum is nothing more than thinly-veiled Vampire ****.

 

[Bro Deal]

Yes, like stop the sham of dope testing. Let them dope, let them ride...

That would never work. What happens when a rider dies? What sponsor would want to open themselves up to that type of scandal and possible legal implications?

 

[IH8LANCE]

That would never work. What happens when a rider dies? What sponsor would want to open themselves up to that type of scandal and possible legal implications?

Well, if doping was legalized, there would be no such implications presuming the teams had good lawyers draw up the liability waivers.

As for the public scandal, you have a point there, but the other major sports seem to be doing just fine despite the spectre of doping largely being swept under the rug.

I know my stance on this is a fantasy. Complete and open legalization of doping will never happen. What I am suggesting is that it does the sport no good to beat itself into the ground suspending riders who are unlucky enough to test positive, or worse, suspending riders on the most tenuous suspicion. Keep a superstar off the bike because a notebook in Spain contains the nickname of his dog? Ridiculous. If they all dope, and if doping controls are arbitrary, then de-emphasize it and bring the focus back to racing. I realize that some people view this as a holy crusade to cleanse the sport, but that is a Quixotic quest indeed.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Picture gallery of stage 15:

http://www.cyclingheroes.info/id788.html