Stage 15 TDF :Lézat-sur-Lèze - Saint-Lary Soulan (Pla d'Adet) : Spoiler



Here's another question. How much does "pulling" really help when going 10-12mph uphill? I can see it for pacing but in my mind there isn't that much aero advantage...

We also didn't see what happened when the break was still on the flats. The left at 27 km. What did OLN show the last 3-4 climbs....

I just don't think we know the whole story, and won't unless we were in original break with the 14 riders that rode off the front.

I'm just trying to keep this objective...
 
wilmar13 said:
You may not like it (just as I don't like it when wheel sucking bastards like Wolfix comes around me for the win), but that is the way it works.
But in all fairness wilmar13 I must let everyone know that when I swung off your wheel and took the victory at last years McDonalds World Wide Crit I did share the prize with you. If you remember I won 2 free HAPPY MEALS at a local McDonalds. And you also fail to remember that I let you keep the toy inside the HAPPY MEAL.
 
Lonnie Utah said:
Here's another question. How much does "pulling" really help when going 10-12mph uphill? I can see it for pacing but in my mind there isn't that much aero advantage...

We also didn't see what happened when the break was still on the flats. The left at 27 km. What did OLN show the last 3-4 climbs....

I just don't think we know the whole story, and won't unless we were in original break with the 14 riders that rode off the front.

I'm just trying to keep this objective...

There were very few flats roads yesterday. When the roads were flat, George was under orders not to chase. When the break reached the top of the penultimate climb, it was then that G was given free rein to ride his own race. Drafting and pulling makes almost no difference going up 9-10% gradients. Pereiro is a sore loser.

And yes, it was scary and hair-raising watching the two try to get through the crowds. The crowds were the worst I've ever seen in terms of blocking the road. Cadel Evans complained that he had to slow down so much he probably lost good time he could have jumped over GC rivals it was so bad.

There was absolutely no way for George to come around Pereiro because of the crowds until the barriers. In the last 1-2 km. Then it was too late. But Pereiro didnt exactly motion for George to come through. When the two of them spoke together after dropping Cauchiolli, you could see they were both riding harder and faster so I think George did agree to go with the move and they could both sort it out. They did and OP lost. Boogerd was nowhere near them and Pereiro was told that I'm sure by his team car. He should shut up and stop whining.

Here is what Chris Carmichael says:

While there’s a tactical advantage for the team to having a rider in the breakaway on a mountain stage, the rider in the break also gains a tactical advantage. With his team leader in the yellow jersey, George was under no obligation to work with the breakaway. He could sit on the back instead of rotating through and pulling on the front. Yet, on a day like today, that didn’t matter all that much. On steep climbs and fast descents, there is only a slight difference in workload between the men working and the men sitting on.

George had to work for the stage win today. On the climbs, drafting isn’t really effective for saving energy; the speed is too low. On steep descents, the speed is so high and the corners are so technical that all riders in the group are doing roughly the same amount of work. George only received any real advantage in the five to ten-kilometer transitions through the valleys between the climbs.
 
musette said:
JU will almost certainly catch his two-minute man (assuming that's the starting gap) Rasmussen in the ITT. So having Rasmussen in front of him will give him extra incentive hopefully.

.

As it stands now, Rasmussen will start after Ullrich.
 
Do you think that GH wanted Boogerd to return and beat both of them, if so why wouldn't he cooperate? Because he was holding a royal flush and new what to do to win...and he did. Pereiro should've thought this out earlier and tried to beat GH another way...he didn't.

whiteboytrash said:
OP's final words this morning:

“In the escape he didn’t cooperate because he said his job was to wait for Lance Armstrong if he needed to, but later on the stage was up for grabs. I thought that he was going to work with me, but then he didn’t,” said Pereiro. “And I couldn’t stop because I didn’t want Michael Boogerd to get back up to us. It’s obvious that Hincapie tricked me. I congratulate Hincapie on his win, but I don’t think he should have acted like that.”

Pereiro explained that he didn’t think that what Hincapie had done was very sporting. “I think you could say that it wasn’t an ethical victory,” he claimed. “I think I was the moral victor of the stage. At least no one can take that away from me.”
 
I watched the last two hours last night. The commentary (phil and paul) was that Hincapie was sitting. They made the point several times, so its obious that they noticed more than they noticed anyone else in the breakaway doing it. And they made the point that thats what he had to do.

Once it came down to 2 and he had the go ahead to try for the victory his tactics should have changed. There were plenty of opportunities for him to come through on the final climb. OP could not have slowed to force him through because of the danger of being caught (anyone who has ever been in a two man break will understand).

It was great to see GH get up and after all his work over the years he deserves it, but he can't be happy with the way he took it.
 
Lonnie Utah said:
Here's another question. How much does "pulling" really help when going 10-12mph uphill? I can see it for pacing but in my mind there isn't that much aero advantage...

We also didn't see what happened when the break was still on the flats. The left at 27 km. What did OLN show the last 3-4 climbs....

I just don't think we know the whole story, and won't unless we were in original break with the 14 riders that rode off the front.

I'm just trying to keep this objective...
Do you live in Florida where there are no flats? The reason I ask you this is because if you ever rode a hill with wind gusts would not say such a stupid thing.
 
mitosis said:
It was great to see GH get up and after all his work over the years he deserves it, but he can't be happy with the way he took it.
I am pretty sure he was/is pretty happy.
 
996vtwin said:
... if you ever rode a hill with wind gusts would not say such a stupid thing.
I saw Chris Carmichael on OLN a few evenings ago talking about this topic. Carmichael said that the results of his measurements tell him that the effect is 'negligible' below 20 Km per hour.

FWIW, I climb about 2000' a day during the summer. My experience tells me that the winds will be at your back as often as they'll be in your face.

Yesterday my partner and I we're climbing King's Mountain Road ( near Woodside, CA ), it was about 90 degrees. The air was very still most of the climb and we were overheating. We turned a corner and were very glad to find ourselves riding a 9% grade into a head wind.
 
Crankster said:
My tiny violin is playing for OP. He could have slowed down and force Hincapie ahead of himself in the final kms. Or is it only "flat stage" finishes that can be played like this, according to the rules? They may have been caught by others, but that's the gamble he was faced with. Or, he could have tried to leave GH behind. Whenever a 67kg climbing specialist is whining about not being able to outclimb an 80kg classics rider my tiny violin is playing.
Yeah I wonder if OP would like some cheese with his whine...

I still find it incredible that even former and current cyclists think a classics specialist should have taken his turn in front of a climbing specialist GOING UP A MOUNTAIN, yeah that is realistic :rolleyes:

I have actually lost a little respect for OP over this whole thing and the way he is handling it. If he was like "I tried to shake him, but I couldn't and there was no way I could beat him as he came around me..." that is one thing, but to claim a moral victory etc., geesh he and Chris Horner must be drinking the same kool-aid.
 
wolfix said:
But in all fairness wilmar13 I must let everyone know that when I swung off your wheel and took the victory at last years McDonalds World Wide Crit I did share the prize with you. If you remember I won 2 free HAPPY MEALS at a local McDonalds. And you also fail to remember that I let you keep the toy inside the HAPPY MEAL.

Oh I remember alright, I also remember how the Happy Meal only lasted in my stomach about 30 minutes, and the toy broke right after too(you probably knew it was broken before you gave it to me). I hate you Wolfix :mad:

At least I was the moral victor.
 
996vtwin said:
Do you live in Florida where there are no flats? The reason I ask you this is because if you ever rode a hill with wind gusts would not say such a stupid thing.
No flats in Florida :confused: , ever been there? I think the highest point in the whole state is less than 300ft above sea level.

I guess you know the race conditions with direction and wind speed too. Armchair athletes know it all.

Just out of curiosity have you ever ridden a bike with other people? How about up a 9% grade... at race pace, even with wind gusts? Face it drafting didn't mean much at all in this context, pacing mattered for sure as Hincapie would have been vulnerable to OP jumping from behind him and opening a gap, but don't pull any of this GH conserved so much energy from drafting in that last few KM garbage. OP lost, Hincapie stayed on his wheel but there was no bungee cord attaching him.
 
gpriatko said:
I saw Chris Carmichael on OLN a few evenings ago talking about this topic. Carmichael said that the results of his measurements tell him that the effect is 'negligible' below 20 Km per hour.

Anyone who ACTUALLY races intuitively knows this, but it is still good to point this out for the armchair athletes amoungst us.

A more general way of phasing it would be that % of power required to overcome wind resistance is decreased as the grade is increased and speed is decreased.
 
996vtwin said:
Do you live in Florida where there are no flats? The reason I ask you this is because if you ever rode a hill with wind gusts would not say such a stupid thing.
Well I guess it just matter which direction the wind is blowing now doesn't it.

I live in utah (duh). It's VERY hilly here. In fact, I've got what would be a Cat 1 climb basically right outside my front door (it has two sections of 10% that are longer than a mile apeice).

EDIT: Here's the profile...
http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/AdvancedTripMap.aspx?TripID=3711

There 2 are HC climbs within 10 miles of my house. I've found the wind causes me more problems on decents than going up (ever been blown over at 50mph?). But that's just me. I put in over 2500 vertical yesterday in about 8 climbing miles (27 total miles, 1h 42 mins total ride time). Also, with the twists and turns of most mountain roads you get the wind in you face and then at your back fairly often...

Where the heck do you live, timbuktu?

L
 
mitosis said:
Of course he was happy - with the result.
F*ck Discovery Channel and F*ck GH, he is a louse and that is all there is to say. You yankees will defend him because his is a fellow yankee doodle. I am unbiased and am telling you that GH is a louse and Periero won the Moral Victory. Vive Periero! For he is the winner!
 
996vtwin said:
F*ck Discovery Channel and F*ck GH, he is a louse and that is all there is to say. You yankees will defend him because his is a fellow yankee doodle. I am unbiased and am telling you that GH is a louse and Periero won the Moral Victory. Vive Periero! For he is the winner!
I guess U.S. Yanks will just have to be happy with Hencapies' immoral victory then, because that's what the history books will remember 100 years from now....
 
Lonnie Utah said:
... I've found the wind causes me more problems on decents than going up (ever been blown over at 50mph?). But that's just me
It's not just you. I'm not sure how it effects the time on my loops but wind on the decent is a big deal. There's nothing like rocketing into a turn and hitting a wind shear. Last week I saw my partner get blown right off the road. I was trailing behind so I had time to hit the breaks while she was hitting the gravel.

Lonnie Utah said:
... Also, with the twists and turns of most mountain roads you get the wind in you face and then at your back fairly often...
Right, the wind direction changes from in your face to on your back at nearly eary turn on our favorite ride.
 
gpriatko said:
It's not just you. I'm not sure how it effects the time on my loops but wind on the decent is a big deal. There's nothing like rocketing into a turn and hitting a wind shear. Last week I say my partner get blown right off the road. I was trailing her so I knew to hit the breaks while she was hitting the gravel.

Right, the wind direction changes for in your face to on your back at nearly eary turn on our favorite ride.
Ahhh. Nothing like a little moral support. Thanks. Maybe I DO know what I'm talking about after all (But I'm not really sure...;))

L
 
Lonnie Utah said:
I guess U.S. Yanks will just have to be happy with Hencapies' immoral victory then, because that's what the history books will remember 100 years from now....
Yes, and all the children will be naming their pet chickens Hencapie to honor him ;)
 

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