Standing 250m

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by bubsy, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. bubsy

    bubsy New Member

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    I Have a standing 250m eliminator sprint event coming up, (no track bikes permitted) I do a lot of AWC and nuromuscular work from 12sec out to about 40secs year round so thought this event would be right up my alley.However standing starts are new to me compared to rolling or flying sprints and getting on top of the gear at the start seems to take about ~3sec before I can start to produce enough meaningful power to start flicking through the gears and then sit down and start to wind out the 14t to around 50km - 52 km/hr in around ~20sec.

    Power for these is much lower than efforts of the same duration done all standing from a rolling start as you would expect, but speed is the goal not highest power.
    I havn't done enough feild testing to workout when the best time to sit down and get aero is but surely at 45 + km/hr 850watts seated is going to be faster than 1100w standing?

    Advice on where to focus my time from anyone who has trained or trained someone for this type of event, track or otherwise sure would be appreciated, bearing in mind its done on road bikes so I can start/finish in any gear I choose, I think it's slighly uphill too so might double check that but at 68kg I don't think my weight will be an issue. maybe 67kg if I skip lunch and dinner that day lol!
     
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  2. bradg

    bradg New Member

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    Getting aero in the span of 250m is...unlikely to happen, at least to any meaningful degree. Watch the team sprint event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulYf2ieGfhs is a good example, though it focuses on France for the first lap so I'm not sure what the eventual winners (UK) did. Bauge remains standing for about 200m, and he's a fantastic sprinter.

    Yes, I realize that's fixed and you're geared, but if you're thinking you'll shift effectively in a 250m sprint best of luck with that, yeah? If you can make it work great, but for whatever reasons it seems not so effective for me. Different strokes for different folks, though.

    The faster you can get on top of that gear, the better, and that's a matter of being able to fire the muscles quite quickly. I don't train for Man 1, preferring things like the kilo myself so I can't necessarily offer the strongest insight, but I'd practice your standing starts in various gear inches, from very small to somewhat large. I don't know that you'll get much out of standing starts on 120" though! I've often had my highest power outputs--and in those instances, snappiest accelerations and great top speed--when going from a track stand in ~75" and just hammering it. I also have pretty decent leg speed so when I've done that in the past, I didn't shift at all for the interval. Single leg presses in the gym can also be quite beneficial if you match up the joint angles properly.

    The best 250m standing lap times are in the low 17s, which comes out to ~53kph, and I'd wager those are done on gears from 96" to 102" though I can't be sure, obviously.
     
  3. bubsy

    bubsy New Member

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    Thanks Bradg, That's all interesting/helful info.
    I've never had a problem shifting on the fly and even when I have a look at the screen shot afterwards I have a hard time telling where the gear changes are (up to 5, start in 19t end up in 11t), but have spent ~3 years training this way, mostly on techy crit, hot dog courses and rolling start hill sprints.

    I will add that it is a slight up hill ~250m so def going to have to do some gear changes and no 102" starting gear. I also notice in a lot of files a distinct rise in speed when I sit, it's easy to see because the power drops alot,

    Only a little over 7 weeks so not gonna bother with gym work just more field testing and standing starts like you mentioned.

    ~53km/hr you say, hmm not gonna see that unless we get a strong tailwind lol!

    Thanks again, thats given me some insight.
     
  4. bradg

    bradg New Member

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    Glad to help! With whatever knowledge I may have...

    Other things to note:
    Those peak power workouts can leave you feeling exhilarated and while you won't necessarily feel the effects, or register any alarming IF or TSS numbers, recovery is important. 2-3x/week is fine, and give yourself at least 24 hours between sessions. Some people prefer more recovery time. I'd say 4-8 efforts in a session is sufficient (err towards fewer), 5-10min recovery periods.

    The gym work is likely of limited benefit for anything other than sprinting. And I have a deep weightlifting background, so it was a struggle for me to acknowledge that it's not ever-so crucial. It'll help some with starts but it sounds like you do other types of riding. Ric Stern is really the guy to ask about this.

    So you're seeing speed rise when you sit? Like, rapidly rise? I'd be curious to see. Are you continuing to accelerate noticeably after sitting? I myself don't. I accelerate standing, then try to hold what I built as I settle into the saddle.
     
  5. bubsy

    bubsy New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by bradg .
    So you're seeing speed rise when you sit? Like, rapidly rise? I'd be curious to see. Are you continuing to accelerate noticeably after sitting? I myself don't. I accelerate standing, then try to hold what I built as I settle into the saddle.

    Yes continue to accelerate right up to the line with a slight plato for the last few seconds.
    I can't make big power at high rpms standing at least not for long durations ~5sec maybee, but longer than that and peak power occurs around 60 - 95rpm, hence the reason I sit and wind out the gear to around 115 - 125rpm, power drops off if rpms go higher than ~125rpm so I will always grab another gear.

    I'll try and figure out how to post a screen shot of some intervals standing the whole time vs standing then sitting.
     
  6. fergie

    fergie Member

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    Ethan Mitchell starts the NZ Team Sprint in 17.2 - 17.3. He is sitting after 75m. Chris Hoy ride a fully seated 9.8 flying 200m in Manchester at a World Cup. Find what works for you and develop it. Try different gears, pacing, sitting strategies to see what works best. On the day make sure you are fresh and do the appropriate warm up.
     
  7. bubsy

    bubsy New Member

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    Awsome! Thanks for sharing Hamish, makes me a little more relaxed about my approach.
     
  8. bradg

    bradg New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by fergie .
    Ethan Mitchell starts the NZ Team Sprint in 17.2 - 17.3. He is sitting after 75m. Chris Hoy ride a fully seated 9.8 flying 200m in Manchester at a World Cup. Find what works for you and develop it. Try different gears, pacing, sitting strategies to see what works best. On the day make sure you are fresh and do the appropriate warm up.

    That's...pretty amazingly impressive, on both counts. Mitchell's a first-lap specialist though, right?

    Also, Bubsy--Ferg's been coaching forever so...listen to him!
     
  9. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Aero matters a lot in sprint and standing start events, and W/kg is also very important as the rate of acceleration is directly proportional to W/kg. Even more so if your course is slightly uphill.

    There's quite a deal of practice required for starts, it can take many years to perfect. It's one of those skill areas that benefit from working with a good start coach and can gain you quite the advantage.

    Personally I'd never do them on a road bike, always on a track bike built for the job.
     
  10. bradg

    bradg New Member

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    Alex--hey, I work with Xavier Disley, who's awesome. Discovered Ric through this very forum actually...

    When it comes to perfecting the standing start, is that as much a matter of pure technique as it is being able to "turn everything on" neuromuscularly? As I continue to see gains in my own power numbers, I wonder how much of that comes from just getting acclimated to the efforts and improving my neuro-coordination, if that makes any sense. The technical aspect of this is quite fascinating, at least to me. Figuring out optimal joint angles and mechanics and all that.
     
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