Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Steve Sr.:
>Interesting point. I always thought that standing would be worse since
>your knee cap actually comes loose and then snaps back into place once
>per revolution while standing. Anybody else care to weigh in on which
>is really worse?

My experience is that it depends on pace and effort.

I stand a lot going up hills for the variety, because it feels good, and to give
my butt a little rest. When I do so I'm just sort of loping along in a gear
that's maybe fifty inches higher than what I'd spin in the saddle. In that
situation there is no negative effect on what's left of my knees.

OTOH during my very brief single speed career, my knees were definitely headed
for trouble. The diff being that often I would ride out of the saddle with
maximum effort (mainly to get up hills).
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Steve Sr.]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:58:05 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Steve Sr. wrote:
>
>> I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills
>> while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I
>> have noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't
>> seem able to take the added stress.
>
>Unless you're climbing with way (way way) bigger gears I'd be sort of
>surprised that this was enough to trigger knee pain -- but since this
>isn't a particularly effective way to improve your power, if you think
>it's causing you problems, don't do it.
>
So what is a better way to improve power?

Steve

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 21:24:03 -0400, Steve Sr. <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:58:05 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Steve Sr. wrote:
>>
>>> I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills
>>> while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I
>>> have noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't
>>> seem able to take the added stress.
>>
>>Unless you're climbing with way (way way) bigger gears I'd be sort of
>>surprised that this was enough to trigger knee pain -- but since this
>>isn't a particularly effective way to improve your power, if you think
>>it's causing you problems, don't do it.
>>
>So what is a better way to improve power?

Pedal slightly faster in a slighty bigger gear.

JT

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[Mike Reed]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> >Unless you're climbing with way (way way) bigger gears I'd be sort of
> >surprised that this was enough to trigger knee pain -- but since this
> >isn't a particularly effective way to improve your power, if you think
> >it's causing you problems, don't do it.
> >
> So what is a better way to improve power?

Sprints. High cadence, explosive, 20 second sprints. If you do them
right, you'll feel like you just got done doing a leg workout with
weights at the gym.

 

[Robert Chung]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:58:05 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Steve Sr. wrote:
>>
>>> I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills
>>> while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I
>>> have noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't
>>> seem able to take the added stress.
>>
>> Unless you're climbing with way (way way) bigger gears I'd be sort of
>> surprised that this was enough to trigger knee pain -- but since this
>> isn't a particularly effective way to improve your power, if you think
>> it's causing you problems, don't do it.
>>
> So what is a better way to improve power?

Power = cadence * crank torque (* a constant), so you can gain power
either by increasing your cadence with the same torque, or increasing your
torque for the same cadence, or some combination of the two. If you're
experiencing knee pain and you think it's because of standing and pushing
bigger gears (which is what you wrote), you don't have to do that. You can
get the same power-training effect by dropping your gearing a bit and
increasing your cadence a bit. There's nothing special about low-cadence
high-torque, so if it's causing you problems don't do it that way.

Though JT is right, the best way is both high(er) cadence and high(er)
torque.

 

[Robert Chung]

Mike Reed wrote:
> Steve Sr. wrote:

>> So what is a better way to improve power?
>
> Sprints. High cadence, explosive, 20 second sprints. If you do them
> right, you'll feel like you just got done doing a leg workout with
> weights at the gym.

20 second sprints will help to improve your 20 second power but cycling is
mostly an aerobic sport so you'd be better off working on your aerobic
power.

 

[bicycle_disciple]

steve, maybe overdoing is the problem. maybe ur giving ur body lesser
time to recover. if u just said ur doing big gears on hills, then i'd
strongly not recommend it. go for easy gears and comfortably high
cadence, and rather than standing up as ive seen most people do, keep
seated on the bike because this is more likely to improve hip strength.

big gears really demand strength from your anerobic muscles and bones.
hopefully, by the time you're done with the ice pack, i suggest you do
some exercises bike specific, off the bike (the medicine ball is your
gold for that sort of thing) and ride high cadence for some amount of
time to improve your neuromuscular co-ordination. then when u think ur
comfortable with bigger gears go for it. take protein, fruits, and
green vegetables...they give you the calcium u need for the bones.
this advice is just from a novice and i always think u should consult
your physician first... hope this helps.

-ron

 

[[email protected]]

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Steve Sr.:
> >Interesting point. I always thought that standing would be worse since
> >your knee cap actually comes loose and then snaps back into place once
> >per revolution while standing. Anybody else care to weigh in on which
> >is really worse?
>
> My experience is that it depends on pace and effort.
>
> I stand a lot going up hills for the variety, because it feels good, and to give
> my butt a little rest. When I do so I'm just sort of loping along in a gear
> that's maybe fifty inches higher than what I'd spin in the saddle. In that
> situation there is no negative effect on what's left of my knees.
>
> OTOH during my very brief single speed career, my knees were definitely headed
> for trouble. The diff being that often I would ride out of the saddle with
> maximum effort (mainly to get up hills).

My one serious knee injury came with a fixed gear. After riding a fixed
gear in real mountains in Germany with no problem I returned to the US
and set up my bike again with one. The knee problem happened the day I
put new cleats on my shoes. One was set wrong and I messed up my knee.

There is nothing in the OP's original post to indicate that he strained
his knees from pushing a gear too big. It sounds like he was being
pretty moderate in his approach. I don't know what his problem is but
it is not "big gears", and if the gear size was in reality the problem,
it really wasn't- it is that he has extraordinarily weak tendons or
athritis or something. He needs to find the underlying problem and fix
it. Telling him to stop trying to improve his leg strength by pushing
moderately higher gears is simply bad advice.

My first advice would be to go to a doctor to have his knees checked
out. If there's no underlying medical condition, he might want to try
training with big gears only out of the saddle to eliminate saddle
position as a source of the problem. Based on my experience, I would
take a look at shoe-pedal angle- if it's not right, every revolution
will strain ligaments and it would certainly be exacerbated by higher
power output, whether from bigger gears or higher rpm.

All of this assumes enough rest for the current problem to subside, and
enough rest between rides to allow adequate recovery. This may mean
resting for more than a day after a hard ride. In your late 40s there's
no guarantee that you can adequately recover after a single rest day-
it will vary by fitness and ride intensity. If you go out and your legs
feel tired from the previous ride, you haven't rested enough. Park the
bike and go for a quick walk if you can't control the intensity of your
ride.

It's not the gear size.

 

[[email protected]]

Steve Sr. wrote:

> I do have what doctors have called crepitas where tendons snap over
> calcified deposits. Sometimes the pain orriginates from one or more of
> these areas and sometimes it is just a non-specific ache. However, I
> have crepitas in both knees and only one knee is currently causing a
> problem.

Didn't see the "slide your cleats back" advice, often offered in these
discussions. That seemed to help my knees, which of course are mine,
not yours <g>. Foot further forward on the pedal, is the position.

Spinning can be very, very bad for knees, whatever the underlying
problems of cleat alignment, joint problems, saddle height, whatever,
might be.

Stretching can be destructive, as well. And it doesn't take bouncing or
forcing to cause a problem.

http://www.lowcarbfreedom.com/2004/09/contrarian_stud.html

http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20040505/Feature1.asp

Suggesting stretching after, not before activity:

http://www.ultrunr.com/stretch.html

A good warm-up can be as easy as careful standing in a big gear for a
few minutes, along with some relaxed seated pedaling. Some of those
trackies can ride short, intense velodrome races with pretty
casual-looking warm-ups, and you see them come back the next week and
do it again. Same holds true for some good crit riders.

IME, using large gears up hills isn't a problem by itself, if done
carefully. It's accelerating up hills, possibly to answer a group
surge, while in a big gear that causes "soreness". That, and big-time
for me, spinning up and over the tops of hills, possibly that
acceleration thing again-- I don't know exactly why, or what's going
on, but I've learned to upshift a little early and stand before the
crests, instead of increasing leg speed while seated, esp. when riding
in a group, to cover the usual acceleration at the top. Recently
repeated this lesson, with only mild irritation being enough of a
reminder, thank you. (Anecdotal, offered as such, while noting
regularity of occurrence).

Another big change for me was going to 165 cranks. Some of the "crank
length" tables support this choice, relative to my leg length. Who
cares, I tried them and a certain constant after-ride knee soreness
went away and hasn't come back.

My saddle height has migrated down to where I have a little bend in the
knee, sole of foot more or less parallel to the ground ("flat") at the
bottom of the stroke.

Oh yeah, I'm older than you <g>, and had "off the bike" knee problems
20 years ago. Rode close to 60 miles yesterday, and during the second
(slightly shorter) half, had to give it all behind a faster rider in
order to make it to an appointment (what a pretty day... whoops!). No
problems at all today, will do a couple of hours later as schedule
permits. I know I'm lucky, but then, I try to pay attention, too...
"offered only as a positive", thanks.

Birthday coming up, I already did the "years/miles" thing yesterday.
Maybe a Century, or even a Double Birthday Spectacular! I'll need to
start early <g>, and easy.

Good luck in your progress! --D-y

 

[[email protected]]

Steve Sr. wrote:

> Once the inflamation starts even easy gears become a problem. It
> becomes a repetitive motion thing. If it flares up in the middle of a
> ride it appears to do more damage just getting home.

Then I would guess your problem is not due
to too-large gears but to some fit issue.
Most likely your seat is a bit low, or your
cleats are misaligned, or something.
I have had knee pain that was caused by
excessively worn cleats, which allowed my
feet to roll a bit from side to side.

Good luck.

Robert

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> > Per Steve Sr.:
> > >Interesting point. I always thought that standing would be worse
> > >since your knee cap actually comes loose and then snaps back into
> > >place once per revolution while standing. Anybody else care to
> > >weigh in on which is really worse?
> >
> > My experience is that it depends on pace and effort.
> >
> > I stand a lot going up hills for the variety, because it feels
> > good, and to give my butt a little rest. When I do so I'm just
> > sort of loping along in a gear that's maybe fifty inches higher
> > than what I'd spin in the saddle. In that situation there is no
> > negative effect on what's left of my knees.

A FIFTY inch difference? Is that correct? Wow, I don't approach that
amount of difference sitting versus climbing while standing.

> > OTOH during my very brief single speed career, my knees were
> > definitely headed for trouble. The diff being that often I would
> > ride out of the saddle with maximum effort (mainly to get up
> > hills).
>
> My one serious knee injury came with a fixed gear. After riding a
> fixed gear in real mountains in Germany with no problem I returned to
> the US and set up my bike again with one. The knee problem happened
> the day I put new cleats on my shoes. One was set wrong and I messed
> up my knee.

Actual damage or "just" pain, inflammation and irritation? The knee is
a complicated joint and it's possible to cause tendinitis, inflamed
bursae, etc.

> There is nothing in the OP's original post to indicate that he
> strained his knees from pushing a gear too big. It sounds like he was
> being pretty moderate in his approach. I don't know what his problem
> is but it is not "big gears", and if the gear size was in reality the
> problem, it really wasn't- it is that he has extraordinarily weak
> tendons or athritis or something. He needs to find the underlying
> problem and fix it. Telling him to stop trying to improve his leg
> strength by pushing moderately higher gears is simply bad advice.
>
> My first advice would be to go to a doctor to have his knees checked
> out. If there's no underlying medical condition, he might want to try
> training with big gears only out of the saddle to eliminate saddle
> position as a source of the problem. Based on my experience, I would
> take a look at shoe-pedal angle- if it's not right, every revolution
> will strain ligaments and it would certainly be exacerbated by higher
> power output, whether from bigger gears or higher rpm.

I agree. Check for a real knee problem. I spent a lot of time chasing
last year down why my left knee had occasional stabbing pains when
riding and altered all kinds of aspects of my position and bike fit,
only to find I had a torn meniscus- probably from aikido or a fall when
cross-country skiing- and needed surgery.

> All of this assumes enough rest for the current problem to subside,
> and enough rest between rides to allow adequate recovery. This may
> mean resting for more than a day after a hard ride. In your late 40s
> there's no guarantee that you can adequately recover after a single
> rest day- it will vary by fitness and ride intensity. If you go out
> and your legs feel tired from the previous ride, you haven't rested
> enough. Park the bike and go for a quick walk if you can't control
> the intensity of your ride.
>
> It's not the gear size.

 

[Steve Sr.]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 00:25:59 +0000 (UTC), Ken <[email protected]> wrote:

>Steve Sr. <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>> But this was one of my points. I am currently doing 100-125 base miles
>> a week and have not really slacked off this winter so I am not really
>> coming off a break.. So you are saying that this is not enough base
>> miles?
>
>How much riding are your friends doing?

About the same as I am.

>How hilly are your 100 miles/week?
>Spinning over hilly terrain is much better for your fitness level than
>spinning on flat ground.

I am not avoiding the hills. Here in central NC we have rolling
terrain. Nothing that is tremendously long or steep but there is a
good assortment. The closer you get to a river (like the Cape Fear)
the hillier it gets.

Steve

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per PeteCresswell...
>> > good, and to give my butt a little rest. When I do so I'm just
>> > sort of loping along in a gear that's maybe fifty inches higher
>> > than what I'd spin in the saddle. In that situation there is no
>> > negative effect on what's left of my knees.

Per Tim...
>A FIFTY inch difference? Is that correct? Wow, I don't approach that
>amount of difference sitting versus climbing while standing.

Good catch. I got my units mixed up. I should have said "percent".

I ride a fixed-gear hub that has a 13.5% difference between each gear and I'll
routinely roll up 4 gears when I stand... sometimes three depending on the hill
and my momentum. Depending on the starting gear, that's more like 15-25
inches.
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Steve Sr.]

On 5 Apr 2006 08:32:36 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Steve Sr. wrote:
>
>> I do have what doctors have called crepitas where tendons snap over
>> calcified deposits. Sometimes the pain orriginates from one or more of
>> these areas and sometimes it is just a non-specific ache. However, I
>> have crepitas in both knees and only one knee is currently causing a
>> problem.
>
>Didn't see the "slide your cleats back" advice, often offered in these
>discussions. That seemed to help my knees, which of course are mine,
>not yours <g>. Foot further forward on the pedal, is the position.

Been there and done that. The person doing my fit indicated that they
were in the right place. I originally started with the cleats in mid
position and had knee problems.

>
>Spinning can be very, very bad for knees, whatever the underlying
>problems of cleat alignment, joint problems, saddle height, whatever,
>might be.
>
>Stretching can be destructive, as well. And it doesn't take bouncing or
>forcing to cause a problem.
>
>http://www.lowcarbfreedom.com/2004/09/contrarian_stud.html
>
>http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20040505/Feature1.asp
>
>Suggesting stretching after, not before activity:
>
>http://www.ultrunr.com/stretch.html

As noted elsewhere I stretch after a ride.

>
>A good warm-up can be as easy as careful standing in a big gear for a
>few minutes, along with some relaxed seated pedaling. Some of those
>trackies can ride short, intense velodrome races with pretty
>casual-looking warm-ups, and you see them come back the next week and
>do it again. Same holds true for some good crit riders.
>
>IME, using large gears up hills isn't a problem by itself, if done
>carefully. It's accelerating up hills, possibly to answer a group
>surge, while in a big gear that causes "soreness". That, and big-time
>for me, spinning up and over the tops of hills, possibly that
>acceleration thing again-- I don't know exactly why, or what's going
>on, but I've learned to upshift a little early and stand before the
>crests, instead of increasing leg speed while seated, esp. when riding
>in a group, to cover the usual acceleration at the top. Recently
>repeated this lesson, with only mild irritation being enough of a
>reminder, thank you. (Anecdotal, offered as such, while noting
>regularity of occurrence).
>
>Another big change for me was going to 165 cranks. Some of the "crank
>length" tables support this choice, relative to my leg length. Who
>cares, I tried them and a certain constant after-ride knee soreness
>went away and hasn't come back.

Interesting point. I have a 29" inseam and both road bikes now have
170 cranks. One was changed and the other was ordered with 170s. The
mountain bike where this latest problem seems to have begun has 175s.
I wouldn't think that 10mm would be a big enough difference to cause
this problem.

>
>My saddle height has migrated down to where I have a little bend in the
>knee, sole of foot more or less parallel to the ground ("flat") at the
>bottom of the stroke.
>
>Oh yeah, I'm older than you <g>, and had "off the bike" knee problems
>20 years ago. Rode close to 60 miles yesterday, and during the second
>(slightly shorter) half, had to give it all behind a faster rider in
>order to make it to an appointment (what a pretty day... whoops!). No
>problems at all today, will do a couple of hours later as schedule
>permits. I know I'm lucky, but then, I try to pay attention, too...
>"offered only as a positive", thanks.

Congratulations! I just want to be able to do 80 miles when I'm 80!

>
>Birthday coming up, I already did the "years/miles" thing yesterday.
>Maybe a Century, or even a Double Birthday Spectacular! I'll need to
>start early <g>, and easy.
>
>Good luck in your progress! --D-y

 

[[email protected]]

Steve Sr. wrote:

> Interesting point. I have a 29" inseam and both road bikes now have
> 170 cranks. One was changed and the other was ordered with 170s. The
> mountain bike where this latest problem seems to have begun has 175s.
> I wouldn't think that 10mm would be a big enough difference to cause
> this problem.

Just a part of a recipe, helps with my "general comfort", keeping the
inflamation count down <g>. Not offered as a miracle cure. As others
have suggested, if the standing in big gears is what bothers your
knees, stop. If I do any of that (I have a 45/15 fixed gear bike, not
all that huge a gear), I do it solo and real carefully.

> Congratulations! I just want to be able to do 80 miles when I'm 80!

Good idea!

OK, have you tried glucosamine/chrondontin supplements? I hurt a knee
walking down stairs a couple of years ago. The doc said the xrays were
good, and I should do rehab-style leg extensions on a machine, and take
the glu/chron too. Took awhile, but the knee got better. I've had one
or two episodes of soreness since, seemingly bike or not bike related,
and have used glu/chron for shorter periods of time. I don't use it all
the time because it costs $$ and frankly doesn't seem to "set very
well" with me. Nothing severe at all. Apparently, one health food store
item that is accepted by the "real" medical community after successful
studies. --D-y

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On 5 Apr 2006 18:39:58 -0700, [email protected] wrote:


>OK, have you tried glucosamine/chrondontin supplements? I hurt a knee
>walking down stairs a couple of years ago. The doc said the xrays were
>good, and I should do rehab-style leg extensions on a machine, and take
>the glu/chron too. Took awhile, but the knee got better. I've had one
>or two episodes of soreness since, seemingly bike or not bike related,
>and have used glu/chron for shorter periods of time. I don't use it all
>the time because it costs $$ and frankly doesn't seem to "set very
>well" with me. Nothing severe at all. Apparently, one health food store
>item that is accepted by the "real" medical community after successful
>studies. --D-y

Yeah, my wife had an injury and her surgeon (an MD) suggested also
trying glucosamine/chrondontin -- he said it helps some people but not
everyone.

JT

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[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 15:23:31 -0700, jonisaacs wrote:

> Disclaimer: I think cycling should be fun and enjoyable at every
> moment. Never let training ruin a good ride...

Amen.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President
_`\(,_ | should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
(_)/ (_) |

 

[Jay Beattie]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] wrote:

<snip>

> I agree. Check for a real knee problem. I spent a lot of time chasing
> last year down why my left knee had occasional stabbing pains when
> riding and altered all kinds of aspects of my position and bike fit,
> only to find I had a torn meniscus- probably from aikido or a fall when
> cross-country skiing- and needed surgery.

Knees are peculiar, and there is even a study in the New England
Journal of Medicine where placebo arthroscopic surgeries had the same
success rates as the real thing. See http://tinyurl.com/ld8hh . An
orthopedist I know is also adamant that much knee pain is referred pain
from the hip. So, the moral of the story is go to a good orthopedist.

> > All of this assumes enough rest for the current problem to subside,
> > and enough rest between rides to allow adequate recovery. This may
> > mean resting for more than a day after a hard ride. In your late 40s
> > there's no guarantee that you can adequately recover after a single
> > rest day- it will vary by fitness and ride intensity. If you go out
> > and your legs feel tired from the previous ride, you haven't rested
> > enough. Park the bike and go for a quick walk if you can't control
> > the intensity of your ride.

I wish I could rest that much -- I don't think my legs have felt fresh
in ten years. I just take a lot of ibuprophen and try to get my knee
pain to be equal to or less than my back pain. Balance is important. --
Jay Beattie.

 

[Bill Baka]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 15:23:31 -0700, jonisaacs wrote:
>
>
>>Disclaimer: I think cycling should be fun and enjoyable at every
>>moment. Never let training ruin a good ride...
>
>
> Amen.
>
I tried something today in regards to this thread, riding in top gear
only and sprinting from a stop until out of leg power, then coasting
down again, numerous times. These were all standing sprints to see if I
could duplicate the sore knee problem since I am also in the over the
hill group at 57. All I managed to do was get winded a little more each
time and now I have a residual bit of sore leg muscles but no knee
aches. It might be of some note that I don't clip in and ride with
sneakers so I can hike when I want, so could it be a matter of pedal
choices and foot angles? This was the first day without rain in 'Sunny'
California for about a week, hence this test ride. The stand and sprint
still just reminds me of running uphill, even when pulling up on the bars.
?????
Is it just me?
Bill

 

[Steve Sr.]

On 5 Apr 2006 18:39:58 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Steve Sr. wrote:
>
>> Interesting point. I have a 29" inseam and both road bikes now have
>> 170 cranks. One was changed and the other was ordered with 170s. The
>> mountain bike where this latest problem seems to have begun has 175s.
>> I wouldn't think that 10mm would be a big enough difference to cause
>> this problem.
>
>Just a part of a recipe, helps with my "general comfort", keeping the
>inflamation count down <g>. Not offered as a miracle cure. As others
>have suggested, if the standing in big gears is what bothers your
>knees, stop. If I do any of that (I have a 45/15 fixed gear bike, not
>all that huge a gear), I do it solo and real carefully.
>
>> Congratulations! I just want to be able to do 80 miles when I'm 80!
>
>Good idea!
>
>OK, have you tried glucosamine/chrondontin supplements? I hurt a knee
>walking down stairs a couple of years ago. The doc said the xrays were
>good, and I should do rehab-style leg extensions on a machine, and take
>the glu/chron too. Took awhile, but the knee got better. I've had one
>or two episodes of soreness since, seemingly bike or not bike related,
>and have used glu/chron for shorter periods of time. I don't use it all
>the time because it costs $$ and frankly doesn't seem to "set very
>well" with me. Nothing severe at all. Apparently, one health food store
>item that is accepted by the "real" medical community after successful
>studies. --D-y

Yes, I take these supplements every day and they seemed to have
helped. I now only take a single 500/400 pill once a day instead of
the bottle reconmmended 3 per day.