Starting to believe in High BB

In previous posts, I expressed a number of concerns about the high bb found in new performance
oriented recumbents. While some of my concerns may still surface, like numb feet, my first week with
my Bacchetta Strada has revealed some startling discoveries. First, my ability to deliver power to
the pedals is MUCH more efficient on the Strada than it was on the Stratus. Second, the Strada
climbs infinitely better than the Stratus. NO comparison. Finally, the Strada is a faster bike than
the Stratus on the open road. Perhaps the only place where my faired Stratus has an edge is long
downhill runs. So while I am not ready to sell the Stratus just yet, I am starting to believe the
high BB design!

Jim Reilly Reading, PA

 

Interesting. I don't own a TE, but I tested one a week ago in hill country. Hard for me to imagine I would ever get more out of my legs and a bike. I don't own a TE because I have reservations about the comfort of the seat base. The bike I rode had a cobra seat and my butt really hurt. I think the latest kool-back base may be a lot better, but because of the sizing issues, these bikes are not found at many dealers, so it is hard to find one to ride.

Anyway, I guess if I want to answer this for myself, I will have to get one of each and have my own shoot out. That could be fun (not to mention expensive!).

John Riley
Toronto

 

My experience would be considered by some to be not as grandiose as yours. But I ride a Burley Canto. I rode many, many bikes before choosing the Canto including a V-Rex, Rocket, Tailwind, EZ-Sport, HP Velotechnik Streetmachine.

Out of all, I chose the Canto because I was noticeably faster on it. My body was happier.

I too enjoy a high bb compared to what I was used to. I certainly agree that the right height BB (which is not the same for all) can make a serious impact in your ride.

 

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
>In previous posts, I expressed a number of concerns about the high bb found in new performance
>oriented recumbents. While some of my concerns may still surface, like numb feet, my first week
>with my Bacchetta Strada has revealed some startling discoveries. First, my ability to deliver
>power to the pedals is MUCH more efficient on the Strada than it was on the Stratus. Second, the
>Strada climbs infinitely better than the Stratus. NO comparison. Finally, the Strada is a faster
>bike than the Stratus on the open road. Perhaps the only place where my faired Stratus has an edge
>is long downhill runs. So while I am not ready to sell the Stratus just yet, I am starting to
>believe the high BB design!

I finally got my wife to try a recumbent a few weeks ago. She couldn't get her feet down on any SWB
bike we could find, so that left the Stratus and the V2. She hated the Stratus (hurt her back) but
loved the V2, in spite of its high BB. So we bought her one. I then tried her V2 for a 40 mile ride
and really liked the LWB feel and stability on longer rides, so now I'm thinking of getting one too.

I had never thought of a LWB before because they are mostly low BBs, which I just can't get to work
for me. But I hadn't realized that the V2 is unusual in having both LWB and high BB. Not sure if
there are any others out there. Now if RANS would only make a USS version of the V2!

Steve Christensen Midland, MI Vision VR-42 RANS V2 (maybe)

 

On 17 Jun 2003 07:28:27 -0700, Steve Christensen <[email protected]> wrote:
>just can't get to work for me. But I hadn't realized that the V2 is unusual in having both LWB
>and high BB. Not sure if there are any others out there. Now if RANS would only make a USS
>version of the V2!

Too George Reynolds no longer makes the Nomad, eh?

There are a few European LWB bikes with high BB:
http://www.elan-ligfietsen.com/fietsen/rainbow/longo/
http://www.elan-ligfietsen.com/fietsen/sinner/record/record.htm
http://www.radius-liegeraeder.de/neu/c4u.html

 

As for me, sold my V2 in favor of a Giro...for me, the Giro outclimbs, out accelerates, and feels
steadier at high speeds than the V2 (which I loved until I rode the Giro!). May have been an issue
with my particular bike, but 36 mph felt squirrely on my V2. 40 felt rock solid the other day on the
Giro. My wife is much faster,and climbs infinitely better on her Giro than her Easysport LTD. (And
she doesn't look "lost" on the bike...tiny woman, lwb bike)

"Steve Christensen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
> says...
> >
> >In previous posts, I expressed a number of concerns about the high bb found in new performance
> >oriented recumbents. While some of my concerns may still surface, like numb feet, my first week
> >with my Bacchetta Strada has revealed some startling discoveries. First, my ability to deliver
> >power to the pedals is MUCH more efficient on the Strada than it was on the Stratus. Second, the
> >Strada climbs infinitely better than the Stratus. NO comparison. Finally, the Strada is a faster
> >bike than the Stratus on the open road. Perhaps the only place where my faired Stratus has an
> >edge is long downhill runs. So while I am not ready to sell the Stratus just yet, I am starting
> >to believe the high BB design!
>
>
> I finally got my wife to try a recumbent a few weeks ago. She couldn't
get her
> feet down on any SWB bike we could find, so that left the Stratus and the
V2.
> She hated the Stratus (hurt her back) but loved the V2, in spite of its
high BB.
> So we bought her one. I then tried her V2 for a 40 mile ride and really
liked
> the LWB feel and stability on longer rides, so now I'm thinking of getting
one
> too.
>
> I had never thought of a LWB before because they are mostly low BBs, which
I
> just can't get to work for me. But I hadn't realized that the V2 is
unusual in
> having both LWB and high BB. Not sure if there are any others out there.
Now
> if RANS would only make a USS version of the V2!
>
> Steve Christensen Midland, MI Vision VR-42 RANS V2 (maybe)

 

Ken Kobayashi wrote:
> On 17 Jun 2003 07:28:27 -0700, Steve Christensen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>just can't get to work for me. But I hadn't realized that the V2 is unusual in having both LWB
>>and high BB. Not sure if there are any others out there. Now if RANS would only make a USS
>>version of the V2!
>
>
> Too George Reynolds no longer makes the Nomad, eh?

I agree. I really liked the look of that one. Only 23 made though.

 

bentcruiser - I have a Burley HepCat and I am confused about your reply, probably because I am still new at bents. Is a Canto a high BB? Is a HepCat a high BB? I looked at the pics on the Burley Web site and from what I could see, the HepCat and Canto looked comparable in the height of the BB? (I know the WB is different on them)...

Thanks for the info. PS - I went 40.2 mph the other day - is there a maximum suggested speed this bike can handle? YEEHAW!

 

Ummm...no it is not a high BB. But it is higher than what I was used to on my BikeE.

The BBs are supposed to be same (when the Canto is in SWB).

No max speed that I know of.

 

[email protected] (stratrider) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

In previous posts, I expressed a number of concerns about the high bb found in new performance
oriented recumbents. While some of my concerns may still surface, like numb feet,...

Beware the numb feet problem. If it kicks in you can forget about the high BB bikes. I would ride it
for several hours to make sure that it is not going to be a problem. I have known several P-38
riders who have had to give up their bikes because of the high BB causing them to have numb feet and
the P-38 BB is not as high as some more recent bikes to come down the pike. On the other hand I have
also known some riders of P-38s who continue to ride their bikes despite their numb feet problem.
Numb feet are no fun however. When I had the problem I would have to get off the bike about every
hour at least and do an Irish jig by the side of the road in order to get some circulation back in
my feet (not a P-38 but a SWB Vision with a 20" front wheel).

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:38:06 +0900, Ken Kobayashi <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 17 Jun 2003 07:28:27 -0700, Steve Christensen <[email protected]ewsguy.com> wrote:
>>just can't get to work for me. But I hadn't realized that the V2 is unusual in having both LWB
>>and high BB. Not sure if there are any others out there. Now if RANS would only make a USS
>>version of the V2!
>
>Too George Reynolds no longer makes the Nomad, eh?

That should have been "Too bad George..."

 

Each of the past two years I have ridden US hwy 212 from Red Lodge, Montana up the 34 miles to
Bearstooth Pass. Two years ago I rode my wife Terry's V-Rex which has a XT crank with 22-32-44
chainrings. Last year I rode my V-Rex which has an Ultegra crank with 24-38-48 chainrings and Terry
rode her V-Rex. I know Terry and I would never have made it with the stock 30 tooth small ring. 34
miles up hill is a long way!

This year I'm riding a Fold Rush with 24-36-46 chainrings and Terry is riding a Tour Easy with an XT
crank with 22-32-44 chainrings. We leave with three others Friday (a V-Rex with 24-42-52 chainrings,
a Tailwind with 30-42-52 chainrings and Calhoun Evo Bars, and a Cannondale DF) to start our ride in
Red Lodge, climb Bearstooth, and then tour Yellowstone. The other three have never seen Yellowstone
so I will be leading the tour. We will be taking turns sagging with a pickup as the others are not
ready for self-contained touring.

It will be interesting to compare this years climb with the Fold Rush and my wife on her Tour Easy
vs the V-Rex's of the past two years.

Perry B

"stratrider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In previous posts, I expressed a number of concerns about the high bb found in new performance
> oriented recumbents. While some of my concerns may still surface, like numb feet, my first week
> with my Bacchetta Strada has revealed some startling discoveries. First, my ability to deliver
> power to the pedals is MUCH more efficient on the Strada than it was on the Stratus. Second, the
> Strada climbs infinitely better than the Stratus. NO comparison. Finally, the Strada is a faster
> bike than the Stratus on the open road. Perhaps the only place where my faired Stratus has an edge
> is long downhill runs. So while I am not ready to sell the Stratus just yet, I am starting to
> believe the high BB design!
>
> Jim Reilly Reading, PA

 

I have bad feet. Flat and subject to cramps. My left foot was severely mangled in a water skiing
accident when I was 13. Part of it is always numb. My right foot has a problem also. Instep cramping
was a problem on a DF. Corrected by the right shoe and an insert, homemade then, store-bought now.
Had some orthodics, still do, use em' for models for my home made ones. Still cramp some for the
first 5 miles. On any bike. There have been many posts about numb feet and bottom bracket height. Is
it circulatory? Nerve? or both. Since I'm not a doctor and choose not to play on the NG. I will
leave it there. A friend of mine has a Stratus, bikeE and now a Strada. He also has a number of
df's...about 17. He rides 10k a year. He got burning numb feet on his STRADA. He further stated that
it was a minor problem on his other recumbents but nothing like the STRADA. Hmmm...I said, let me
see your shoes. Geeze the cleats, SPD were almost all the way fwd. I asked why? I like them that
way. I said "won't work on a bent". So we move them back. He called me when he got home (30 miles)
and said no foot problems. He is a creature of duplicity. He found a shoe he likes and has
stockpiled them, also has the same pedals on 20 bikes. He now has shoes for "bent riding". I got a
new pair of shoes last month, 5 miles into the ride home I HAD to stop and deal with it. Cramp and
numb. I moved the cleat about a quarter of an inch back and pulled out the stock inserts and it was
an immediate 75% improvement. I told the original poster of this thread that I own just about every
shoe insert by DR. Anyone. I have a big plastic bag of em'. So I have fitted my new shoes after
trial and error. Soon the big test a fast rolling hill century. Last metric was fine. My shoes old
and new, lace and have straps. My experience is that for me if I make them too tight I suffer
numbness too loose my foot slops around. My point is that contrary to some belief numb feet can be
related to the combination of things, not just a switch to a high BB bent. It can even be riding
style. At an early age I was taught to spin circles, wiping your feet on the down and pull stroke.
This takes pressure off the bottom of you foot as you "pull around" It can be other medically
related stuff that may or may not go away, but....IMO and IME its can often be a combination of
things compounded by the change to a high BB, and can be alleviated in many cases.

--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports,
Inc 1-800-586-6645 "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (stratrider) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> In previous posts, I expressed a number of concerns about the high bb found in new performance
> oriented recumbents. While some of my concerns may still surface, like numb feet,...
>
> Beware the numb feet problem. If it kicks in you can forget about the high BB bikes. I would ride
> it for several hours to make sure that it is not going to be a problem. I have known several P-38
> riders who have had to give up their bikes because of the high BB causing them to have numb feet
> and the P-38 BB is not as high as some more recent bikes to come down the pike. On the other hand
> I have also known some riders of P-38s who continue to ride their bikes despite their numb feet
> problem. Numb feet are no fun however. When I had the problem I would have to get off the bike
> about every hour at least and do an Irish jig by the side of the road in order to get some
> circulation back in my feet (not a P-38 but a SWB Vision with a 20" front wheel).
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

Ed, the numb feet issue remains a concern. I have not been on a long enough ride to know for sure if
this is a problem for me.

Jim

 

In article <[email protected]>, Steve Christensen <[email protected]> wrote:

> I had never thought of a LWB before because they are mostly low BBs, which I just can't get to
> work for me. But I hadn't realized that the V2 is unusual in having both LWB and high BB. Not sure
> if there are any others out there. Now if RANS would only make a USS version of the V2!
>
> Steve Christensen Midland, MI Vision VR-42 RANS V2 (maybe)
>

The Rotator Pursuit is LWB, high BB, and has been around much longer than the V2. Very comfortable
and good performing bike.

Bill Hole Rotator Pursuit BikeE E2

--
Bill Hole [email protected]

 

In article <[email protected]>, Bill says...

>> I had never thought of a LWB before because they are mostly low BBs, which I just can't get to
>> work for me. But I hadn't realized that the V2 is unusual in having both LWB and high BB. Not
>> sure if there are any others out there. Now if RANS would only make a USS version of the V2!

>>
>
>The Rotator Pursuit is LWB, high BB, and has been around much longer than the V2. Very comfortable
>and good performing bike.

Right your are. But there are no dealers in the midwest area, and I've never even seen any Rotators
around here. Does look interesting.

Steve Christensen Midland, MI

 

"Jude T. McGloin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> There have been many posts about numb feet and bottom bracket height. Is it circulatory?
> Nerve? or both. Since I'm not a doctor and choose not to play on the NG. I will leave it
> there.

> My shoes old and new, lace and have straps. My experience is that for me if I make them too tight
> I suffer numbness too loose my foot slops around. My point is that contrary to some belief numb
> feet can be related to the combination of things, not just a switch to a high BB bent. It can even
> be riding style. At an early age I was taught to spin circles, wiping your feet on the down and
> pull stroke. This takes pressure off the bottom of you foot as you "pull around" It can be other
> medically related stuff that may or may not go away, but....IMO and IME its can often be a
> combination of things compounded by the change to a high BB, and can be alleviated in many cases.

I certainly do appreciate everything you have to say about what can possibly be causing a numb foot
problem. Shoe, cleat position, riding style and other medically related stuff can be causing the
problem but I am assuming that all those have been ruled out, most especially by the sophisticated
recumbent cyclists who are involved with this newsgroup. What I am talking about is a circulation
problem which will cut in for anyone if the BB gets high enough. The problem is that it cuts in for
some of us sooner than it does for others.

In my own case for example, all it took to relieve me of my numb foot problem with my Vision SWB
with the 20" front wheel was to switch over to the 16" front wheel. Voila! No more numb feet.
Everything else stayed exactly the same. It was simply a circulation problem. If you have never
experienced this on a high BB bike consider yourself lucky. But get a high BB bike and you are
firting with this danger. In my opinion the BBs on some recent recumbents are getting way too high
for good physiological reasons. There are also other problems connected with high BBs, but that is
another story for another day.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

Ed, This weekend a retired Navy Flight Surgeon friend of mine will be in town. His specialty was and
still is Aerospace Physiology. I'll ask him about this circulatory issue with feet at or slightly
above heart level. Also where in Minnesota do you live? Will you be at the Stevens Point rally? In
August. I'm sure you will get to see plenty of high BB high and low racers there. Mine included.
Additionally I will be visiting the HED factory, relatives in the cities and then head up Hwy 10 to
Detroit Lakes, more in-laws then south to Albert Lea and Iowa.
--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports,
Inc 1-800-586-6645 "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Jude T. McGloin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > There have been many posts about numb feet and bottom bracket height. Is it
> > circulatory? Nerve? or both. Since I'm not a doctor and
choose
> > not to play on the NG. I will leave it there.
>
> > My shoes old and new, lace and have straps. My experience is that for me if I make them too
> > tight I suffer numbness too loose my foot slops around. My point is that contrary to some belief
> > numb feet can be
related to
> > the combination of things, not just a switch to a high BB bent. It can even be riding style. At
> > an early age I was taught to
spin
> > circles, wiping your feet on the down and pull stroke. This takes
pressure
> > off the bottom of you foot as you "pull around" It can be other medically related stuff that may
> > or may not go away, but....IMO and IME its can often be a combination of things
compounded
> > by the change to a high BB, and can be alleviated in many cases.
>
>
> I certainly do appreciate everything you have to say about what can possibly be causing a numb
> foot problem. Shoe, cleat position, riding style and other medically related stuff can be causing
> the problem but I am assuming that all those have been ruled out, most especially by the
> sophisticated recumbent cyclists who are involved with this newsgroup. What I am talking about is
> a circulation problem which will cut in for anyone if the BB gets high enough. The problem is that
> it cuts in for some of us sooner than it does for others.
>
> In my own case for example, all it took to relieve me of my numb foot problem with my Vision SWB
> with the 20" front wheel was to switch over to the 16" front wheel. Voila! No more numb feet.
> Everything else stayed exactly the same. It was simply a circulation problem. If you have never
> experienced this on a high BB bike consider yourself lucky. But get a high BB bike and you are
> firting with this danger. In my opinion the BBs on some recent recumbents are getting way too high
> for good physiological reasons. There are also other problems connected with high BBs, but that is
> another story for another day.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

I agree with you, Jude. I think high-bb bikes get a bum rap for numb/hot feet. I had hotfoot
terribly one year. I found out after suffering for a month or more that I had moved my seat too
close to the pedals. When I had a spate of numb toes, I discovered a pair of cotton shorts had
shrunk in the wash and were constricting at the leg openings. IME, a high-bb may exacerbate a
problem but it's usually not the primary cause.
--

John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24 --- _\\/\-%)
_________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____

 

Steve Christensen wrote:
> ... Right your are. But there are no dealers in the midwest area, and I've never even seen any
> Rotators around here. Does look interesting....

I test rode a Rotator Pursuit at the Bike Rack in St. Charles, IL (far west Chicagoland suburbs)
which is certainly in the Midwest area (but a long drive from Michigan).

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)