steel/carbon road frames

[Jcupriks]

Originally posted by dhk
Well, have a couple of challenges for you. First, my impression was that the thinnest (lightest) ultra steel tubings aren't even available in fork tubes. For that reason, Columbus themselves, probably the best-known maker of high-end steel and Al tubesets, markets a line of carbon fiber forks.

I'm certainly not quick to buy any manufacturer's hype, but did check out the Serotta website. Here's some of their copy, comparing the CF rear to the classic steel option:


"The future of road bikes is available now, only at Serotta. We combine a curved carbon ‘spring’ with 3D XL Micro Pivots with sealed bearings to produce the optimal level of active suspension and vibration damping for a high performance ride any pro cyclist would envy. Like magic, the ST system improves every aspect of cycling-control, cornering, descending or out of the saddle climbing. We select from numerous chainstay /ST combinations to meet the individual’s requirements."

Or, how about their pitch for adding the carbon rear stay to the Concours: "The Concours/CS incorporates our proprietary ‘CS’ carbon stay for a ride that is out of this world. Improved vibration damping makes hard cornering a delight ‘because you stick like glue', and after a long day in the saddle your back will thank you."

This may be over-hyped just a bit, but I am convinced that the improvement is worth the $300 extra they charge. Once you're at $2450 for the frame, what's another $300?

Serotta apparently have already seen the advantages of carbon forks and stays. Regardless of how you view the marketing forces at work, seems to me they are quickly becoming the standard on high-end metal road frames.

Dan

Dan,

Thanks for all the great input. Really. Since I asked the original question, the truth remains that carbon fiber simply wouldn't be around if it didn't serve a real purpose. Steel really is a great all around material, but it can't do everything all the time. It just isn't realistic. I'm interested in the keeping the feel of steel where I can (my first bike was a Raleigh Reynolds 531 too), but I just want to get it updated too. Technology changes, and as long as it's built well (to last) and fits, I say go for it.

 

[Jcupriks]

Originally posted by dhk
Well, have a couple of challenges for you. First, my impression was that the thinnest (lightest) ultra steel tubings aren't even available in fork tubes. For that reason, Columbus themselves, probably the best-known maker of high-end steel and Al tubesets, markets a line of carbon fiber forks.

I'm certainly not quick to buy any manufacturer's hype, but did check out the Serotta website. Here's some of their copy, comparing the CF rear to the classic steel option:


"The future of road bikes is available now, only at Serotta. We combine a curved carbon ‘spring’ with 3D XL Micro Pivots with sealed bearings to produce the optimal level of active suspension and vibration damping for a high performance ride any pro cyclist would envy. Like magic, the ST system improves every aspect of cycling-control, cornering, descending or out of the saddle climbing. We select from numerous chainstay /ST combinations to meet the individual’s requirements."

Or, how about their pitch for adding the carbon rear stay to the Concours: "The Concours/CS incorporates our proprietary ‘CS’ carbon stay for a ride that is out of this world. Improved vibration damping makes hard cornering a delight ‘because you stick like glue', and after a long day in the saddle your back will thank you."

This may be over-hyped just a bit, but I am convinced that the improvement is worth the $300 extra they charge. Once you're at $2450 for the frame, what's another $300?

Serotta apparently have already seen the advantages of carbon forks and stays. Regardless of how you view the marketing forces at work, seems to me they are quickly becoming the standard on high-end metal road frames.

Dan

Quicly becoming?! I think Serotta's reputation for the highest quality steel was cemented a long time ago.

 

[Pat Lee]

Originally posted by Jcupriks
I was told by my local framebuilder that he was a bit puzzled by the carbon rear end. I suppose it works for manufactured frames, but he said the steel was actually lighter and more shock absorbent when done right. Also, he said the carbon rear end is usually heavier than his steel rear triangle, but if I wanted the carbon stays, he offers that to people who want it. Essentially, the carbon didn't really offer anything over a well built steel rear triangle. Interesting. I trust the man, he even offers the carbon rear end as an option. It's not that he's a steel grouch either. He told me he likes the carbon fork alot, too.

--Pat.

Thanks for the info.

Josh [/QUOTE]

Josh,

One more thing:
I rode my friend's Orbea. I don't know the model name, but it's the high-end model made with Columbus ULTRA Foco steel, not the cheaper Foco. As I mentioned in a previous post, it has the Columbus carbon rear stay, and a Columbus fork.

Anyway, I rode that thing for a very short distance without adjusting the seat, and the thing accelerates like a bat out of hell. If you think fast, it accelerates. It seemed very rigid, laterally, to me. I was riding my lugged steel bike, and his bike was noticably stiffer out of the saddle. That's not to say uncomfortable. I rode it another day just at the end of a ride and it seemed less vertically compliant than my lugged steel Colnago over paving imperfections. It was the end of a ride, so I didn't do much but limp home, and the saddle wasn't adjusted right for me, but there was a difference. Basically, I'd characterize the difference between our two bikes as this: on my bike, you could feel what size the aggregate was on certain types of asphalt. On his bike, I couldn't tell what size the aggregate was at all. I think that had mostly to do with a carbon fork.

I doubt six miles is enough mileage for any of this to be really credible anyway. For my money, I'd take a tubing upgrade over a carbon rear seat stay. The only way to know, is to have a good local builder or a good bike shop that lets you test till you're numb.

Don't analyze 'em, ride 'em.

Good luck,
--Pat.

 

[dhk]

Originally posted by Jcupriks
Quicly becoming?! I think Serotta's reputation for the highest quality steel was cemented a long time ago.

When I wrote "they" above, I meant carbon rear stays, not Serotta. Certainly agree they've been a top-name in the frame business for many years.

Sorry for the poor writing on my part, glad you called me on it!

Dan

 

[Jcupriks]

Originally posted by Pat Lee
Thanks for the info.

Josh

Josh,

One more thing:
I rode my friend's Orbea. I don't know the model name, but it's the high-end model made with Columbus ULTRA Foco steel, not the cheaper Foco. As I mentioned in a previous post, it has the Columbus carbon rear stay, and a Columbus fork.

Anyway, I rode that thing for a very short distance without adjusting the seat, and the thing accelerates like a bat out of hell. If you think fast, it accelerates. It seemed very rigid, laterally, to me. I was riding my lugged steel bike, and his bike was noticably stiffer out of the saddle. That's not to say uncomfortable. I rode it another day just at the end of a ride and it seemed less vertically compliant than my lugged steel Colnago over paving imperfections. It was the end of a ride, so I didn't do much but limp home, and the saddle wasn't adjusted right for me, but there was a difference. Basically, I'd characterize the difference between our two bikes as this: on my bike, you could feel what size the aggregate was on certain types of asphalt. On his bike, I couldn't tell what size the aggregate was at all. I think that had mostly to do with a carbon fork.

I doubt six miles is enough mileage for any of this to be really credible anyway. For my money, I'd take a tubing upgrade over a carbon rear seat stay. The only way to know, is to have a good local builder or a good bike shop that lets you test till you're numb.

Don't analyze 'em, ride 'em.

Good luck,
--Pat. [/QUOTE]

Pat,

I saw that exact Orbea at my local bike shop. Big money. It was a custom job for someone and man was it beautiful. I couldn't ride it, since it was already bought and paid for. It really made a physical impression on me, but I couldn't get a feel for it. As far as 6 miles, that's a long time to get a good feel for a bike. It sound like it rides as nice as it looks. I think I'm going for a new carbon fiber/steel Lemond, and lug technology/bonding does not appear to be a genuine issue. I've really appreciated all the great information I've gotten from this thread. Thanks.

 

[dhk]

Great report on the test ride. I saw a couple of Orbea's at our club Century ride last month. They were in team colors, and looked really sharp also.

Personally, I'd select Foco tubing rather than the Ultra Foco, regardless of the price difference. Believe you'll be buying a lot more frame life for only about 100 gms difference, and still not compromise ride quality. I'm planning to go with Al/carbon, but it will be Zonal, rather than Airplane or Starship for the same reason....want a frame to last me 10 years. Lots of trade-offs.

Dan

ps: Had a great ride on my old steel bike again today. It's riding better than ever now....guess that's what happens when you start looking at new $2500 and up bikes!

 

[Pat Lee]

Originally posted by Jcupriks
I think I'm going for a new carbon fiber/steel Lemond, and lug technology/bonding does not appear to be a genuine issue. I've really appreciated all the great information I've gotten from this thread. Thanks.

I know why people are wary of the glued joints. That's not my concern, personally.

I think if you were to put an engineered glue joint up against a hand welded joint in an engineering tensile test or torsion test or whatever mechanical loading test you wanted to, statistically, the gued joint would perform better over an infinite number of joints tested. My theory is that a worker who glues a joint is more likely to have consistent, repeatable, tangible assembly instructions, and therefore this worker will have better more consistent results. Comparing this worker to another worker who happens to be a welder or brazier assembling rear seat stays to seat tube clusters, I'd be willing to bet there's more room for variation in welding technique and the joint will always be compromised by the solidification mechanism in the welded joint.

Having a materials background, I'd trust the glued joints, because I know how effective a glued joint can be. Besides, how many problems did people have with their old Vitus aluminum frames? My buddy just retired his well used Vitus, for the Orbea. Besides if your glue joints fail, it's pretty much a no brainer for the factory to redo them.

--Pat.

[edited for grammer]

 

[dhk]

Pat: Agree. My current Raleigh has steel tubes, bonded to forged aluminum/steel head/seat and BB brackets, with no bonding issues at all in 10 years of use. Millions of carbon forks have been on the road for years now with metal dropouts glued into their stays.

I've been told most all-carbon frames are built with carbon tubes bonded to carbon lugs. Believe Kestrel and a couple of other high-end frames may be an exception....but all carbon tubes/frames are really just fibers bonded together.

Also, Columbus markets a top AL/carbon tubeset for custom builders, XLR8R Muscle, which has carbon mainsections that the framebuilder bonds to trimmable aluminum tubes/brackets to obtain the custom geometry. Looks very aggressive, but $$$!

Dan


Dan

 

[freek]

Xavier, can you give us your opinion on the full carbon rear triangle (or 'monobox') in combination with the new light steel tubing (EOM 16.5, SAT 14.5, Ultrafoco)? Does it improve lateral (bracket) stiffness? Does it improve comfort?
It seems to me that part of it is marketing, and part is production efficiency. Glueing is less time consuming and less demanding than tig welding or brazing I suppose.
The new steels are light enough for me (82 kgs) but an improvement in stiffness without sacrificing comfort would be very welcome.
So, is it worth it?

 

[boudreaux]

Originally posted by freek
Xavier, can you give us your opinion on the full carbon rear triangle (or 'monobox') in combination with the new light steel tubing (EOM 16.5, SAT 14.5, Ultrafoco)? Does it improve lateral (bracket) stiffness? Does it improve comfort?

He does not know. BB stiffness is in the BB,not the stays.Steel can be more than stiff enough. It's how it's designed, not the material. CF stays can be lighter,but that is not always a given. CF damps small vibrations better than steel. Big hits are the same. Stiff and comfortable are relative and subjective,and to get one you have to comprimise the other.There is no free lunch. The bigger benefit from CF stays goes to Aluminum frames,and marketing carries it over to Ti and steel where it's real value is questionable. Don't buy all the hype or OD on mental masturbation.

 

[freek]

My thinking was further than you assume. In the Deda Monobox rear triangle the two chainstays are of a one piece construction; a kind of rectangular part fits into the bb shell. I assume this could be laterally stiffer than two separate stays, either steel or cf.
Elasticity of steel and cf are very different, so that in itself might make a difference.
The question is, can you feel it while riding?

Remember the days when we fussed about a small steel piece just behind the bb shell, connecting the lugs of the shell? Was supposed to make it stiffer.

I am a strong believer in steel, but would like that extra stiffness in the bracket.

 

[boudreaux]

Originally posted by freek


I am a strong believer in steel, but would like that extra stiffness in the bracket.

Consider a Merckx mx leader.

 

[freek]

MX Leader: too traditional for my money. I remember when Max tubing came in, long ago, and the reports where that it was a rather unforgiving ride. For todays standards: stiif and heavy.
Besides, I like to take advantage of the latest steel technology. That's why I am looking at Deda EOM 16.5. (I have a lugged SLX bike, lugless 753 oversized, and lugless Deda Zero Uno bike already, the latter two custom built for me).
For the new one, I'll have it custom built again, maybe by a local builder overhere, maybe an English builder.

 

[dhk]

Agree the monobox should add stiffness to the BB, as well as production savings. Local builder here offers the monobox along with the new FSA Megatech BB (an oversized shell and press-in oversized (cartridge) bearings). I'm going this way on an AL/carbon rear frame shortly. Pretty sure it will be a lot stiffer than my current 531 steel bike...just in case I get a lot stronger next season with all my additional training!

Dan

 

[Orbea Zona]

I just bought an Orbea "Zona" frameset at my local bike shop. It is all-steel, and it is beautiful.

Orbea also makes a steel-carbon frame.