Steel Frame Breakage Redux

[A Muzi]

Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame came
back from dechroming.

I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG

There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.

OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the sharp
square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[A Muzi]

A Muzi wrote:
> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame came
> back from dechroming.
>
> I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
>
> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
>
> OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the sharp
> square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.

More:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CIN2.JPG

Some days were better than others at Cinelli, apparently.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[jim beam]

A Muzi wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame
>> came back from dechroming.
>>
>> I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
>>
>> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
>> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
>> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
>>
>> OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the sharp
>> square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.
>
> More:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CIN2.JPG

the squared ends create much more of a stress riser than the normal
round tube bridge. cinelli should have known this.


>
> Some days were better than others at Cinelli, apparently.

clearly there's a q.c issue regarding the dropout. the broken chainstay
may be just that squared design, and/or q.c. [excessive brazing heat].
the latter to be determined by metallography.

bottom line, iirc, dedacciai specifically recommend chain stay bridges
for their steel tube sets and cite fatigue mitigation for explanation.
provided the tube hasn't been butted too thin in that region, and the
bridge isn't square ended, i see no reason why they shouldn't be right.

 

[jim beam]

jim beam wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame
>>> came back from dechroming.
>>>
>>> I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
>>>
>>> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
>>> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
>>> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
>>>
>>> OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the
>>> sharp square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.
>>
>> More:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CIN2.JPG
>
> the squared ends create much more of a stress riser than the normal
> round tube bridge. cinelli should have known this.

here is an example of a text-book perfect bridge:
http://www.prodigalchild.net/FrameHolesBW.jpg

from:
http://www.prodigalchild.net/Bicycle6.htm

the pad between the bridge and the chainstay helps distribute stress.

>
>
>>
>> Some days were better than others at Cinelli, apparently.
>
> clearly there's a q.c issue regarding the dropout. the broken chainstay
> may be just that squared design, and/or q.c. [excessive brazing heat].
> the latter to be determined by metallography.
>
> bottom line, iirc, dedacciai specifically recommend chain stay bridges
> for their steel tube sets and cite fatigue mitigation for explanation.
> provided the tube hasn't been butted too thin in that region, and the
> bridge isn't square ended, i see no reason why they shouldn't be right.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame came
> back from dechroming.
>
> I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
>
> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
>
> OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the sharp
> square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.

The clear conclusion is that the other bikes, with full brazings, were
overbuilt.

-RjC.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[M-gineering]

A Muzi wrote:
> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame came
> back from dechroming.
>
> I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
>
> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
>
> OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the sharp
> square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.

I find frames with cracked chainstays often have cracked dropouts as
well. Guess it was the other way round with this one

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

 

[* * Chas]

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A Muzi wrote:
> > Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame
came
> > back from dechroming.
> >
> > I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
> >
> > There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
> > Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
> > plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
> >
> > OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the sharp
> > square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.
>
> More:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CIN2.JPG
>
> Some days were better than others at Cinelli, apparently.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I cut open a late 1960s 52 cm Cinelli frame that had run into the back of
a car. I was going to replace the top and down tubes. The original tubes
were never mitered, just shoved into the lugs and brazed. There was at
least a 1/4" (6mm) gap between the tubes in the lugs and the head tube.

The Cinelli lugs were very thick and looked like they were cast. They
survived a crash that 90 degreed the Columbus SP top and down tubes. The
owner decided that it was going to cost too much to fix and abandoned the
project.

On your repair, were the lugs 1010Bs? Some of those came with a heavy
black surface scale that needed to be cleaned off before brazing. That's
pretty amazing that the joint lasted so long.

Chas.

 

[_]

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:39:40 -0500, A Muzi wrote:

> A Muzi wrote:
>> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame came
>> back from dechroming.
>>
>> I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
>>
>> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
>> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
>> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
>>
>> OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the sharp
>> square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all that.
>
> More:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CIN2.JPG
>
> Some days were better than others at Cinelli, apparently.

One of my first bikes was a Cinelli. The brake bolt hole was not square to
the crown (this has since been corrected). This was from a bike with a
serial number just over 100, but still that's not an excuse.

 

[Donald Gillies]

A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

>Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame came
>back from dechroming.

>There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
>Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
>plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.

Aint it always true that quality and value takes a nosedive after a
corporate takeover or stock issuance. That, in my opinion, is exactly
what people say about Cinelli (and also about UPS here in the USA ...)

So much for capitalism !!!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame
> came back from dechroming.
>
> I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
>
> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
>
> OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the
> sharp square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all
> that.

Triangulation good.

Mystique-y Italian frames from Cinelli and Masi and De Rosa and the like
have a reputation among frame builders for having been built with many
shortcuts and too much heat. The US-built Masis were reportedly better
constructed than the Italian ones.

 

[A Muzi]

> A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
>> Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame came
>> back from dechroming.
>> There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
>> Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
>> plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.

Donald Gillies wrote:
> Aint it always true that quality and value takes a nosedive after a
> corporate takeover or stock issuance. That, in my opinion, is exactly
> what people say about Cinelli (and also about UPS here in the USA ...)
> So much for capitalism !!!

I do not know of a bicycle manufacturer named "UPS".
UPS package delivery service started 1907 with bicycle deliveries and
successfully went public in 1999. Capitalism achieves more, and for more
people, than any other real or putative format (How efficient is package
delivery in North Korea nowadays?)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[* * Chas]

"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Tonight, I started a cracked chainstay replacement after the frame
> > came back from dechroming.
> >
> > I lifted the broken piece end and easily peeled off the chainstay:
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CS83CINL.JPG
> >
> > There was a small contact of brass for 3-4mm of area (top, inside).
> > Otherwise, this 1983(?) Cinelli passed inspection, polishing and
> > plating, then got past the assemblers, without actually being brazed.
> >
> > OTOH it was ridden for many years before finally breaking at the
> > sharp square cast bridge. Draw what conclusions you will from all
> > that.
>
> Triangulation good.
>
> Mystique-y Italian frames from Cinelli and Masi and De Rosa and the like
> have a reputation among frame builders for having been built with many
> shortcuts and too much heat. The US-built Masis were reportedly better
> constructed than the Italian ones.

Back in the day a riding buddy had a very early orange Colnago with
beautiful paint and lugwork. Everyone drooled over it. One problem, it had
a serious rattle in the toptube.

A fellow rider from the local school of medicine used a (new product at
the time) fiber optics scope to look into the toptube through a small hole
in the seat tube. They found a 8" long piece of brazing rod rolling around
in the tube. They fixed the problem with some glue. That had to be
intentional.

As far as other sacred cow cycling products from Italy, we were assembling
an all Campy NR bike at our shop in the mid 70s. The left hand pedal
wouldn't start to thread into the crank arm. On closer examination we
discovered that the pedal had dual lead threads cut into the shaft.
Someone had to do that intentionally because the normal pedal threads were
cut or rolled on a screw machine.

Chas.

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Andrew Muzi mused:
> ...Capitalism achieves more, and for more
> people, than any other real or putative format...

Mr. Muzi's worship of the Capital explains why it is in the background
of all his bicycle photographs.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 29, 12:12 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

> (How efficient is package
> delivery in North Korea nowadays?)

Well they were able to deliver a shipment of nuclear material to
Syria, according to the Israelis. And then they had no problem
receiving a shipment of oil from us a week or two after that. So, not
too bad...

 

[A Muzi]

> Andrew Muzi mused:
>> ...Capitalism achieves more, and for more
>> people, than any other real or putative format...

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Mr. Muzi's worship of the Capital explains why it is in the background
> of all his bicycle photographs.

Pretty expensive thing but at least I get use of it as a photo drop.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Donald Gillies]

A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

>Donald Gillies wrote:
>> Aint it always true that quality and value takes a nosedive after a
>> corporate takeover or stock issuance. That, in my opinion, is exactly
>> what people say about Cinelli (and also about UPS here in the USA ...)
>> So much for capitalism !!!

>I do not know of a bicycle manufacturer named "UPS".
>UPS package delivery service started 1907 with bicycle deliveries and
>successfully went public in 1999. Capitalism achieves more, and for more
>people, than any other real or putative format (How efficient is package
>delivery in North Korea nowadays?)

Since the IPO, i have tried to use UPS for shipping, but their prices
are normally 2x Fedex and USPostal. Quite frankly, I don't know how
they stay in business. Oh yeah I know, they rip off everyday
consumers and use their booty to subsidize amazon.com ...

Also, they're the only place ever to charge me $112.00 to ship a
bicycle across the USA. Most places only charge $35 to ship that bike
across country. The box bulged by 1/2", i had to go home before the
drop-off, and they ripped off my 79-yr old grandmother.

yeah, capitalism works real, real well ...

- Don Gillies

 

[[email protected]]

On 1 Oct 2007 22:29:47 -0700, [email protected] (Donald Gillies)
wrote:

[snip]

>Also, they're the only place ever to charge me $112.00 to ship a
>bicycle across the USA. Most places only charge $35 to ship that bike
>across country. The box bulged by 1/2", i had to go home before the
>drop-off, and they ripped off my 79-yr old grandmother.
>
>yeah, capitalism works real, real well ...
>
>- Don Gillies

Dear Comrade Don,

Da! In Soviet, grandmothers not ripped off!

No capitalist shipping size-limit rules in People's Republic! All is
fair and glorious!

Apparatchiks handle shipping! Grandsons pay, not grandmothers!

We invented bicycle! Communist bicycles win Olympics!

Bicyclists of world, unite! Have nothing to lose but chains when you
go back to highwheelers!*

Cheerski,

Karl--er, Carl Fogel

*Additional charges may apply for highwheeler shipping behind Iron
Curtain. Grandmothers ship free to Siberia.

 

[Art Harris]

A Muzi

> > A Muzi

> Donald Gillies wrote:
> > Aint it always true that quality and value takes a nosedive after a
> > corporate takeover or stock issuance. That, in my opinion, is exactly
> > what people say about Cinelli (and also about UPS here in the USA ...)
> > So much for capitalism !!!
>
> Capitalism achieves more, and for more
> people, than any other real or putative format (How efficient is package
> delivery in North Korea nowadays?)

Yes, but there's much merit in what Donald Gilles says. Read an
interesting discussion of modern-day Capitalism by capitalist John
Bogle:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09282007/transcript1.html

Art Harris

 

[A Muzi]

>> Donald Gillies wrote:
>>> Aint it always true that quality and value takes a nosedive after a
>>> corporate takeover or stock issuance. That, in my opinion, is exactly
>>> what people say about Cinelli (and also about UPS here in the USA ...)
>>> So much for capitalism !!!

> A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
>> I do not know of a bicycle manufacturer named "UPS".
>> UPS package delivery service started 1907 with bicycle deliveries and
>> successfully went public in 1999. Capitalism achieves more, and for more
>> people, than any other real or putative format (How efficient is package
>> delivery in North Korea nowadays?)

Donald Gillies wrote:
> Since the IPO, i have tried to use UPS for shipping, but their prices
> are normally 2x Fedex and USPostal. Quite frankly, I don't know how
> they stay in business. Oh yeah I know, they rip off everyday
> consumers and use their booty to subsidize amazon.com ...
>
> Also, they're the only place ever to charge me $112.00 to ship a
> bicycle across the USA. Most places only charge $35 to ship that bike
> across country. The box bulged by 1/2", i had to go home before the
> drop-off, and they ripped off my 79-yr old grandmother.
>
> yeah, capitalism works real, real well ...

I've been around the block with UPS, FedEx and DHL. They are tough
negotiators with sharp pencils, I agree. Labor fuel etc have made _all_
delivery services expensive, and strict about size limits and
surcharges, compared to the low rates of our youth.

Be that as it may, service is still relatively cheap, quite reliable
overall. You're welcome to send your small packets by USPS and heavy
freight by motor carrier, as we do. It's a broad and diverse market,
package delivery.

We sometimes do not appreciate the broad and deep societal benefits of
competition where it exists. I give you Ryan Air or Southwest for
example. In 1980, Dave Goodall from Holdsworthy explained they were
opening six new US importers (a company I partly owned imported them
then). We were shocked. He unrolled a US map, noting that more were
needed to "get the lorries around to dealers promptly". Our mouths were
agape. Unlike here, England didn't yet have much FedEx or UPS
penetration and distributors really did deliver to shops in their own
trucks. Wanna pay for _that_??
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:41:38 -0500, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>> Donald Gillies wrote:
>>>> Aint it always true that quality and value takes a nosedive after a
>>>> corporate takeover or stock issuance. That, in my opinion, is exactly
>>>> what people say about Cinelli (and also about UPS here in the USA ...)
>>>> So much for capitalism !!!
>
>> A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
>>> I do not know of a bicycle manufacturer named "UPS".
>>> UPS package delivery service started 1907 with bicycle deliveries and
>>> successfully went public in 1999. Capitalism achieves more, and for more
>>> people, than any other real or putative format (How efficient is package
>>> delivery in North Korea nowadays?)
>
>Donald Gillies wrote:
>> Since the IPO, i have tried to use UPS for shipping, but their prices
>> are normally 2x Fedex and USPostal. Quite frankly, I don't know how
>> they stay in business. Oh yeah I know, they rip off everyday
>> consumers and use their booty to subsidize amazon.com ...
>>
>> Also, they're the only place ever to charge me $112.00 to ship a
>> bicycle across the USA. Most places only charge $35 to ship that bike
>> across country. The box bulged by 1/2", i had to go home before the
>> drop-off, and they ripped off my 79-yr old grandmother.
>>
>> yeah, capitalism works real, real well ...
>
>I've been around the block with UPS, FedEx and DHL. They are tough
>negotiators with sharp pencils, I agree. Labor fuel etc have made _all_
>delivery services expensive, and strict about size limits and
>surcharges, compared to the low rates of our youth.
>
>Be that as it may, service is still relatively cheap, quite reliable
>overall. You're welcome to send your small packets by USPS and heavy
>freight by motor carrier, as we do. It's a broad and diverse market,
>package delivery.
>
>We sometimes do not appreciate the broad and deep societal benefits of
>competition where it exists. I give you Ryan Air or Southwest for
>example. In 1980, Dave Goodall from Holdsworthy explained they were
>opening six new US importers (a company I partly owned imported them
>then). We were shocked. He unrolled a US map, noting that more were
>needed to "get the lorries around to dealers promptly". Our mouths were
>agape. Unlike here, England didn't yet have much FedEx or UPS
>penetration and distributors really did deliver to shops in their own
>trucks. Wanna pay for _that_??

Dear Andrew,

By coincidence, this article caught my eye today:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/173rpdzf.asp

Cheers,

Carl Fogel