Steel Road Frames?

DMF said:

I'm riding a '03 Raleigh Professional frameset (Columbus Zona tubeset with Columbus Link Al/CF fork) on sew-ups and it truly does "disappear" under you...

In 59 cm my Raleigh weighs 21.5 lbs.

Hey DMF, I've got the same beast ('03 Raleigh Pro) in the 56 size, and right now I've got it down to 18.8 lbs. It is a great riding frame.

Vincent Kluwe said:

Hi Tonto,
beautiful tubeset you got there. Great stuff that EOM 16.5! Hope you will show us some pics of the finished project (next spring?). I hope to finish my own Spirit project by that time as well.

Lovely Cervelo, Aussie!!

Hi Vincent,
Well the frame I mentioned on here a few months ago is finally here. Not fully built yet (I'll do it this weekend) but still something to look at (I think anyway!).

How are you getting on with your Battaglins?

Wurm said:

Hey DMF, I've got the same beast ('03 Raleigh Pro) in the 56 size, and right now I've got it down to 18.8 lbs. It is a great riding frame.

Actually, it just went to 18.7 lbs. since I installed a new 4-Axis stem and Easton bar.

😎

janiejones said:

Are steel frames good for light weight people? I was once reading a review on a steel framed bike (Pegoretti) and the writer said it wasn't a bike for the smaller build because s/he would bounce around a lot'.

I use to own a steelframe and it was one of the most comfortable rides ever. I'm thinking of getting another one in the future.

Who are some of the good manufacturers of steel frames these days?

Bianchi makes some great steel frames.

Tonto said:

Hi Vincent,
Well the frame I mentioned on here a few months ago is finally here. Not fully built yet (I'll do it this weekend) but still something to look at (I think anyway!).

How are you getting on with your Battaglins?

Hello Tonto,
nicely done so! By the way: are you having a Bentley in your garage parked as well? (joke). Very elegant, upper class paintjob, indeed.
No, I didn't have time to care about the new bike. I had a lot of work all winter to finish the english translation of my last book. It it finished and I hope for some interest now in the US.
All the best with building it up now, Tonto!
Vincent

Tonto said:

Hi Vincent, how are you getting on with your Battaglins?

Hi Tonto,

sorry, I didn't get back to you for such a long time - I just didn't find the time to build up one of the frames in springtime. But now, well, just judge for yourself. Isn't it a beauty? And boy, does it ride. It's faster and more responsive than any other bike I owned. It is even faster than my latest Trek alu model, weighing 2 1/2 lbs less than my new heavy metal roadster.

Following the guidelines within another thread I can only guess, that this is a consequence of better geometry and better aerodynamics. Fact is anyway, it takes me uphill about 20% faster than my Trek, for whatever reason (or is it just pure endorphin, produced by riding the new bike?!?).

[font=Arial][font=Arial]I built it up mainly with latest Ultegra parts. Only “historic” component is the Cinelli Frog stem, which I dearly love. In fact the Frog is what I began with, building the bike around that centre part! The bar is a Syntace Racelight 7075, possibly one of the best drop bars in the market today – extremely comfortable in any grip position. [/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Just to avoid misunderstanding: It wasn’t my plan to build up a “retro” bike – I know quite well, what a “retro” would look like. I have ridden several “retro” bikes for the longest part of my life, before they were retro! I wanted a beautiful race machine with well working parts for everyday use and it is my official ride now for sporting our Berlin training tour, mainly because I refuse to put my bubble butt on one of these modern tinplate monsters with their stovepipe aesthetic ever again! [/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial](The shop still has about 100 frames in stock, selling them for about 300 USD. Anyone interested? If so, go back to my post #77 to find my e-mail address).[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]All the best to you, Tonto, and to anyone else in the thread.[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]Vincent[/font][/font]

531 Aussie covers it well with his links. I have a 1991 Serotta Colorado 2 lugged steel, which is a wonderful bike, but I'm not light! In any event there are many manufacturers of steel, but bring money! Any thought towards buying a used steel bike off the web?

p38lightning said:

Any thought towards buying a used steel bike off the web?

Dear Lightning,

why think about second hand, if you can have a beauty like above new for about 300 USD (shipping included)?!?

Vincent[font=Cantoria MT]
[/font]

Lately I've rebuilt my old(had it for 12 years) Bauer Momentum roadie into a single speed. I'm loving riding it:p and its really helping my speed and hillclimbing - the goal.
Anyway - the frame/fork is all steel - Columbus.
I'm finding it just as comfortable(perhaps moreso) as my alloy framed / carbon forked training bike and similar alloy/carbon racing bike🙂
I must say I like the more 'macho' look of the oversized alloy frames though...

Vincent Kluwe said:

Hi Tonto,

sorry, I didn't get back to you for such a long time - I just didn't find the time to build up one of the frames in springtime. But now, well, just judge for yourself. Isn't it a beauty? And boy, does it ride. It's faster and more responsive than any other bike I owned. It is even faster than my latest Trek alu model, weighing 2 1/2 lbs less than my new heavy metal roadster.

Following the guidelines within another thread I can only guess, that this is a consequence of better geometry and better aerodynamics. Fact is anyway, it takes me uphill about 20% faster than my Trek, for whatever reason (or is it just pure endorphin, produced by riding the new bike?!?).

[font=Arial][font=Arial]I built it up mainly with latest Ultegra parts. Only “historic” component is the Cinelli Frog stem, which I dearly love. In fact the Frog is what I began with, building the bike around that centre part! The bar is a Syntace Racelight 7075, possibly one of the best drop bars in the market today – extremely comfortable in any grip position. [/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Just to avoid misunderstanding: It wasn’t my plan to build up a “retro” bike – I know quite well, what a “retro” would look like. I have ridden several “retro” bikes for the longest part of my life, before they were retro! I wanted a beautiful race machine with well working parts for everyday use and it is my official ride now for sporting our Berlin training tour, mainly because I refuse to put my bubble butt on one of these modern tinplate monsters with their stovepipe aesthetic ever again! [/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial](The shop still has about 100 frames in stock, selling them for about 300 USD. Anyone interested? If so, go back to my post #77 to find my e-mail address).[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]All the best to you, Tonto, and to anyone else in the thread.[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]Vincent[/font][/font]

Vincent,
That is a truly beautiful machine. Congratulations! I have a certain affection for Battaglins after Stephen Roche road one in his glorious 1987. I think you chose your parts very well for the bike. Nothing looks out of place.
Ah yes, there is nothing to beat the rush of taking a new bike out on the road. The only danger is hitting a kerb or a parked car because you're spending too much time looking admiringly at it instead of the road.
I've put just over 1000km's on mine so far. I wish it was more but the weather here in Ireland has been truly shocking. It has rained heavily every day for over 3 weeks. How's the cycling weather in Berlin?

All the best,
Tonto.

Here's my steel ride... Full custom and not super expensive ($1100 for frame).

Tonto said:

Ah yes, there is nothing to beat the rush of taking a new bike out on the road. The only danger is hitting a kerb or a parked car because you're spending too much time looking admiringly at it instead of the road.

Oh, Tonto - how well you know!

Tonto said:

... but the weather here in Ireland has been truly shocking. It has rained heavily every day for over 3 weeks. How's the cycling weather in Berlin?

Nice to hear from you again, Tonto. Bad to hear about your weather. Well, it's been almost the same all over Northern Europe, I suppose. Had to fetch the hours beetween two rushes, what we (my heavy metal gang and me) had been quite lucky with. But some rides out the next splash washed us right back home. Luckily Tsunami always managed to hit from the back ...

Back to Battaglin: did you note how short and steep that thing is? Downhill stiff as a brick and handling as lightly as a feather. Just a dreamride! And you should know, I am really a "big boy", 1.90 m in length (ultra slim though or should I proudly say "well trained" ... ahem...) and the frame is a big 60 c/c!

P.S. Eh ... Tonto? ... How to put it right ... I'm really not meaning to feed anyone's envy... but have to get rid of it before bursting: found an original Guerciotti Ex World Champion merino jersey from the 60s ... eh ... mint!!! But had to promise to only wear it on sundays on the way to church and way back after prayer ... !

FreeHueco said:

Here's my steel ride

Nice composition, Mike! Like the Easton seat post. Is it Easton stem as well?
But your tubeset looks quite oversized. Looks like Long Shen's "big lugs"!
Do you run it CX? My next project will be a Grandis Custom CX by the way (beautifully hand carved lugs and some lovely kitschy old fashioned details).

P.S. Looking more carefully with 250% for the head tube, I see it's TIG welded - no lugs at all. Sorry! But still a nice and clean frame.

I actually finished building the bike about 10 minutes before my dad took that picture of me with it. I intend to run a second set of wheels so I can switch between CX and road. My new wheelset shipped today, so I will be rocking that one soon (the wheelset is ROL Volant)...

I didn't ask Paul what kind of steel he used, but I know he mixes different types of steel to get the best result.

FreeHueco said:

I didn't ask Paul what kind of steel he used, but I know he mixes different types of steel to get the best result.

Nothing to worry about. All expert frame builders mix up to individual specification. Custom is of course THE way to get a perfect ride! Good luck with it out in the dirt! Nothing compares to steel when the going get's tough (well, perhaps Ti does, if it comes from Seven!!).

FreeHueco said:

Here's my steel ride... Full custom and not super expensive ($1100 for frame).

Awesome finger strength, man!! 😉

let's not forget that LeMonds still has some sort of record for doing one of the fastest ever Tour time-trials on a steel bike! 🙂 Ok, it doesn't mean much, but there'd be people in bike world who would think it was impossible

531Aussie said:

let's not forget that LeMonds still has some sort of record for doing one of the fastest ever Tour time-trials on a steel bike!

Hi Aussie,

I read articles of different physicians, who tried to draw our attention to the physical fact, that bike weight is not an disadvantage on the flats. Only uphill you lose a neglectable percentage, which you gain back on descent.

I am not able to judge, if this bears out in race practice, but we might take it as some kind of indicator, that it doesn't really infect the daily practice of us more mortal riding hobbyists, if we are carrying the extra weight of a water bottle or not. Well, then again it might make a difference on a 150 mile tour stage up to Alpe d'Huez.

I would love to ask a former top racer about his experience for he might have used all kinds of frames and bikes to judge the pros and cons.

Regards,
Vincent

Vincent Kluwe said:

Nice composition, Mike! Like the Easton seat post. Is it Easton stem as well?
But your tubeset looks quite oversized. Looks like Long Shen's "big lugs"!
Do you run it CX? My next project will be a Grandis Custom CX by the way (beautifully hand carved lugs and some lovely kitschy old fashioned details).

P.S. Looking more carefully with 250% for the head tube, I see it's TIG welded - no lugs at all. Sorry! But still a nice and clean frame.

The stem is an Easton EA70: I just couldn't see spending the extra $150 for a carbon one (but I already had the EC70 seatpost on my Bianchi singlespeed, so I swapped it with the one on my old road bike). Yes, it is TIG welded with some joints reinforced.

Here's the full specs:
Ritchey WCS Carbon CX fork
SRAM Force groupset (except for Paul's neo retro/touring cantilever brakes)
Easton EC70 seatpost/EA 70 stem/Forte Pro SLX seat
Profile Designs Strada carbon bar
ROL Volant wheels (as soon as I get them! they shipped yesterday) for the road
OpenPro/Ultegra wheelset for the CX side of things
Vredestein Fortezza or Ritchey Speedmax CX tires

I liked this set of info the best/thought most balanced of any that I have read. Knowing something about metallurgy myself I tend to agree with most, even though, for now, I am riding an aluminum framed bikes :p but maybe not for long.. even though I just finished building them up.. sorry for the length of what I posted from the site, I just found it all pretty useful...

nordicgroup.usbikerecOpen ↗
[left][font=Arial]Why Steel Frames are Preferable to Aluminum Frames[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]The aluminum versus steel debate is one of the most enduring arguments on Usenet. Proponents of aluminum play fast and loose with the facts, and come up with all sorts of creative analogies (the most popular being the airplane analogy, debunked below). They never give up, despite losing the debate on aluminum versus steel every time![/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]The best dissertation on the relative trade-offs of frame materials, can be found at: anvilbikes.comstory.phpOpen ↗[/font].
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Here's the bottom line: bicycle manufacturers moved to aluminum alloys from Chro-Moly steel because of cost. It is much more cost effective to build a lightweight aluminum bicycle than a lightweight steel bicycle. However aluminum has some undesirable characteristics. It is weaker, and more brittle than steel, so to compensate, aluminum tubes need to be of a larger diameter and have thicker walls. As a result of the larger diameter tubes, aluminum bicycles are stiffer than steel bicycles. Aluminum fatigues after less stress cycles than does steel; this is not an issue for the casual rider, but it is an issue for the enthusiast that expects to keep the same bicycle for a decade or more (i.e. I still use a touring bicycle from 1984!).[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Standard Rationalizations used to Sell Aluminum Frame Bicycles[/font]
[/left]

• [left][font=Arial]The frame has a lifetime warranty, so it must be good.[/font]
  [/left]
  
• [left][font=Arial]The frame has a lifetime warranty, so if it breaks, you're covered.[/font]
  [/left]
  
• [left][font=Arial]Millions of aluminum frame bicycles never have a problem.[/font]
  [/left]
  
• [left][font=Arial]You'll never ride enough for the fatigue limit to be reached.[/font]
  [/left]
  
• [left][font=Arial]Other parts of the bicycle are made from aluminum, so why not the frame?[/font]
  [/left]
  
• [left][font=Arial]Airplanes are made from aluminum[/font]
  [/left]
  
• [left][font=Arial]This frame has been tested and certified by the EFBe[/font]
  [/left]
  
• [left][font=Arial]Many racers use aluminum frame bicycles so they must be reliable.[/font]
  [/left]
  

[font=Arial]Every one of these items can be shown to either to be untrue, or immaterial to the real issues. They are side issues, and there are people that fall for them because they don't look beyond those rationalizations.[/font]

• [font=Arial]A lifetime warranty is no guarantee that a product is good, it only assures you that you can get a replacement (though this is not necessarily assured).[/font]
  
• [font=Arial]Frame breakage warranties cover a replacement frame, as long as the manufacturer decides that the breakage is covered. But it does not cover other components that break when the frame fails. It may not include transferring components from the broken frame to the new frame. Often the manufacturer will offer the owner a new bicycle at 50% of MSRP, since in that way the manufacturer still makes a profit, and the shop doesn't have to transfer components.[/font]
  
• [font=Arial]The fact that most aluminum frames don't fail, does not address the fact that the aluminum frame is much more likely to fail.[/font]
  
• [font=Arial]This actually is often not true, since there are many owners that do ride enough for the cumulative stress levels to result in fatigue. [/font][font=Arial]T[/font][font=Arial]his is not an issue for the casual rider, but it is an issue for the enthusiast that expects to keep the same bicycle for decades.[/font]
  
• [font=Arial]This is a very weak argument, that ignores how other parts are constructed and how they are stressed. And some other aluminum parts do fail due to fatigue, such as the handlebars.[/font]
  
• [font=Arial]See section about airplanes, below.[/font]
  
• [font=Arial]See section about EFBe, below.[/font]
  
• [font=Arial]Actually, most racers use carbon-fiber frame bicycles, but in any case the requirements for a racing bicycle are very different than what the typical recreational rider needs. As stated at smartcycles.comframe materials.htmOpen ↗[/font]:[font=Arial] "The earlier problems of aluminum's tendency to fail after only a short time has been basically solved. But the lifetime of an aluminum frame is not and will not be that of a steel bike. The rider has to accept that in his search for high-performance, compromises must be made. These are not lifetime bikes. They just aren't!" [/font]
  

[font=Arial]It's unfair to call people that don't understand all the issues 'dumb,' because it is not reasonable for them know every detail about the product they are purchasing. They should be informed by the salesperson of the trade-offs between aluminum and steel frames. The problem is that many bike shops don't carry a wide range of steel bicycles anymore, since many manufacturers have dropped steel (or titanium) except at the very high end. Trek is happy to sell you a Lemond Wayzata, Poprad, or Arrivee, but other than the Trek 520 touring bicycle, none of their road bicycles are steel (thankfully, no one <but Cannondale?> is making aluminum touring bicycles).[/font]

[font=Arial]Ironically, it's the chain bicycle and sporting good stores that are offering the best selections. Performance offers a wide selection of Jamis and Fuji models in both steel and aluminum. REI carries Marin, and still offers one Novara in steel.[/font]

[font=Arial]What About Other Aluminum Components?
[/font][font=Arial]Proponents of aluminum frames will often try to shift the debate to other components on the bicycle that are fabricated from aluminum; it's a clever tactic, that does fool some people. I.e., they'll say something like, so you're saying that aluminum frames aren't as good as steel frames, so you must favor steel wheels over aluminum wheels. This is a weak argument technique because each component is subjected to different types of stress, and their are different trade-offs to be made. You know that you've won the debate when they try to change the premise![/font]

[font=Arial]Aluminum is used for many bicycle components, including cranks, seat posts, stems, hubs, rims, and brake calipers. In most cases, this is not an issue because these components are either not stressed in a way that would cause fatigue and failure, or because they are so over-specified that they do not experience sufficient flexing to cause fatigue. If one of these components does fail, it is an inexpensive repair, though some of the failures are very dangerous.[/font] [left][font=Arial]There have been catastrophic failures of aluminum handlebars, especially on mountain bikes and on odd shaped bars such as what is used on the Brompton (see bromptonbicycle.co.ukindex.cfmOpen ↗). Aluminum handlebars on mountain bikes fail often, due to the excessive flexing, and should be replaced periodically. A handlebar failure can be very dangerous, and can result in serious injury.[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Aluminum Frame Recalls[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Here are some of the aluminum frame recalls that I found in a few minutes on Google:[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]cannondale.comrecall 114903.htmlOpen ↗
mcnews.comtopic.aspOpen ↗
marinbikes.comrecallOpen ↗"
cpsc.gov04113.htmlOpen ↗
[/font][font=Arial]recall-warnings.comcpsc content 03 03066.htmlOpen ↗[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Other recalls of Aluminum Components[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]recall-warnings.comcpsc content 05 05543.htmlOpen ↗
recall-warnings.comcpsc content 05 05506.htmlOpen ↗[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]No recalls of steel frames were found.[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Inspect for Cracks Periodically
[/font][font=Arial]If you do buy an aluminum frame bicycle, be sure to periodically inspect the frame and handlebars for cracks. [/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]What Other Experts Say about Aluminum versus Steel[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]serotta.comhelpyouchoose.htmlOpen ↗ states: "Aluminum is popular among many bike manufacturers because it is the least expensive, easiest to form, cut, weld, and finish. So from a manufacturing perspective, it's very desirable. It's also very light, so the marketing departments are fond of it too. While aluminum offers reasonable value, it does not offer optimal ride qualities, typified by bone-jarring, fatiguing harshness. Long-term durability is significantly less than in steel or titanium."[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]rivendellbicycles.com101 framematerials.htmlOpen ↗ states: "Good engineering can guard against cracks, but historically, aluminum frames do not have an exemplary record in the crack department. Harder to repair than steel. Requires large-diameter and/or thick walls to achieve sufficient strength and stiffness, so "strong and stiff" aluminum frames are chunky looking. That isn't necessarily a con."[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]spectrum-cycles.com61.htmOpen ↗ states: "If you are looking for a bicycle that will last longer than a few seasons, consider the fatigue numbers associated with aluminum. Aluminum frames accumulate fatigue over the miles. That fatigue will eventually result in failure. Another problem with many of the aluminum frames now is their lack of vertical compliance. Aluminum frames offer a stiff ride but they do so at the expense of comfort."[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]bikexchange.comaskmech.htmOpen ↗ states: "No aluminum is going to hold up as well as steel. That being said, most manufacturers will give you a lifetime warranty on aluminum frames, and in reality, the failure rate is quite low."[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]dahon.comframematerial.htmOpen ↗ states: "When it comes to "liveliness" and road feel, steel is still the material of choice for many discerning cyclists. A well-built steel frame can last a lifetime."[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]sheldonbrown.comframe materials.htmlOpen ↗ states: "For extended travel in less-developed areas, steel is probably still the best choice, because in the event of damage, repairs can be made by anybody with a torch and brazing/welding know-how."[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]http://www.torelli.com/tech/material.shtml&1" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">torelli.comhome.htmlOpen ↗ states: "The mechanical characteristics of aluminum are inferior to steel. It will fail more quickly under repeated stress. So, the diameters and wall thicknesses must be increased, but not as much as would be called for to make up entirely for the reduced tensile strength of aluminum."[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]A good discussion of frame materials and weight can be seen at: anvilbikes.comstory.phpOpen ↗[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]The bottom line is that aluminum frames are okay, but they don't have the longevity of steel frames, and many people find the stiff ride objectionable. Sure there are lots of rationalizations put forward by the bicycle industry, from the manufacturer all the way down to the retailer, but this doesn't change the facts. It's all a business, and profits come first, which is not necessarily a bad thing.[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]EFBe Certification--A Red Flag of Bicycles to Avoid![/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]The bicycle manufacturers very much want to promote the sale of aluminum frame bicycles, but have been hampered, at least on the high end, by all the aluminum frame failures and recalls. Enter EFBe, a company in Germany that saw an opportunity to turn a profit by "certifying" bicycle frames. The whole thing is a hollow joke in industry circles. A bogus test, by an "independent" laboratory, that manufacturers have to pay to say that their products are okay.[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Two good articles regarding the EFBe "Certification" can be found at:[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Commentary on the EFBE Frame Tests[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]EFBe Frame Test: how NOT to test a Bicycle[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]The EFBe certification does serve a valuable purpose. You can be assured that any manufacturer that is desperate enough to have to get their frames "certified" by this company, is a manufacturer to avoid at all costs.[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Airplanes, Bicycles, and Aluminum[/font]
[/left]
[center][font=Arial]'[/font][font=Arial] Airplanes are made from aluminum and they don't fail, so aluminum is fine for bicycles'[/font]
[/center]
[center]
[/center]
[center][font=Arial]Aloha Airlines Boeing 737, Flight 243, 28 April 1988
Aluminum Airframe Failed due to Metal Fatigue[/font]
[/center]
[left][font=Arial]Invariably, when the aluminum versus steel debate pops up, someone chimes in with an analogy about airplanes. They ask why we're not worried about aluminum airplanes falling out of the sky, but we're worried about aluminum bicycle frames breaking. I'm convinced that buried somewhere in the sales training from Trek, Cannondale, and/or Specialized, there is an FAQ that tells salespeople to use the airplane analogy to address concerns from customers about aluminum framed bicycles.[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]Like most analogies, it's a poor one. The fact is that we are worried about airplanes falling out of the sky. Recall the 1988 incident in Hawaii where an Aloha Airlines Boeing 737 suffered a structural failure. This was an inter-island plane, which had an abnormally high number of compression/decompression cycles, which fatigued the aluminum skin, causing stress cracks that propagated from rivet locations. Amazingly, only one person was killed (a flight attendant who was sucked out during the decompression). Of course the solution here was not to make airplanes out of steel, it was to increase inspections, and limit the number of stress cycles before an aircraft is taken out of service.[/font]
[/left]
[font=Arial]anvilbikes.comstory.phpOpen ↗ states: "When discussing aluminum, someone always brings up airplanes. Airplane design showcases what aluminum does best: acceptable strength and a low relative weight. But, aluminum's lack of a fatigue limit is one very good reason why there is stringent monitoring of dynamically or cyclically stressed aluminum structures." [/font]

[left][font=Arial]Also see: plane-truth.comfatigue details.htmOpen ↗, abqtrib.com041204 news bright.shtmlOpen ↗, [/font][font=Arial]navioneer.orgAviator Jun 2002.pdfOpen ↗, and the.honoluluadvertiser.com118localnews1.htmlOpen ↗[/font]
[/left]
[left][font=Arial]The very best part about the airplane argument, is that when after it is debunked, the person who brought it up in the first place invariably says something like, "well you can't compare airplanes with bicycles!"[/font]
[/left]