Steel Road Frames?

[531Aussie]

Massi is a Portuguese company.....

thanks for the info

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Have you got an aluminium bike at the moment?

No. I've ridden several brands, but never felt good enough about alloy to buy one. The failure mode of allloy frames has kept me away from them. That and the ride that was designed into many of them. Please don't misunderstand me, alloy Cannondale, Klein, Raleigh, Trek, Cervelo, etc. are all fantastic machines, but not to my taste.

Now that scandium is being used as an alloying element, I think I would try one. I believe that will increase the safty factor and every year seems to yield better engineering.

Carbon fibre still scares the living **** out of me too. It's failure mode rivals aluminum for instananeous catastrophic 'disassembly'.

 

[531Aussie]

^^ Ah well, if ya ever want something stiff.....

As an '80s guy, I was ALWAYS against aluminium, because talk of them breaking easily and riding super-harsh also scared and me put me off, but I reckon the talk is overstated. I've weighed anywhere from 180 to 200 pounds since 2000, I've been mashing and thrashing the absolute **** out my alu frames since that time, and I've only managed to crack one so far, which was a cheap Specialized Allez Comp.

Even when I made my "big, modern" purchase in 2004, I bought a steel Cervelo Superprodigy, but as great deals on alu frames came up in my area, I took the plunge and have found myself riding them more and more -- almost exclusively, in fact.

What I'm trying say, is that while I was a steel guy as much as anyone, and very anti-alu when it first came out, I now ride my alu Scapin, Ciocc and Cervelo 95% of the time, and love them

Carbon; that's another story. What mostly scares me about carbon is the bloody price! Not only is the failure mode a bit scarey, they're also not idiot proof. As happened to a friend of a friend, I could knock one over and smash a chain-stay, and there's a $4000 frame gone! Poor guy; his Cervelo (R3 or R2; can't remember) was leaning up against a fence, was blown over, the stay hit a log....bang...gone...no warranty

 

[CAMPYBOB]

bang...gone...no warranty

Ouch!

Back in the day I saw plenty of dented steel frames still being raced safely. Only rarely did a guy take his frame to a builder to iron out a dent.

Now, it seems like every third post is something like: "I scratched my $5000 Pinarello Prince...is it safe to ride?" It seems like we've come so far, yet are trading product life and ease of care for weight (I'm guilty, as charged, your honor!).

I'll admit to handling my carbon frame with great care and I inspect it for cracks often. It only cost $900; a low price by almost any standard of comparison. 'If' it goes 20k miles or so without blowing apart and grinding my face into the road I will admit it into the Campybob hall of retired bikes! Until then, I'm still Highly suspect of its' longevity and safety.

The scandium/aluminum alloy frames intrigue me. You still have a carbon fork and possibly a carbon rear end on them though.

I might try Ti again and look for the stiffest thing on there. I'm pretty impressed with many of Ti's other attributes...looks...ease of care...strength...weight.

I always ask 'why', if aluminum and Ti are so great, that neither material is used successfully (perhaps more correctly: commonly in commercial production) as as fork material?

 

[Vincent Kluwe]

I might try Ti again and look for the stiffest thing on there. I'm pretty impressed with many of Ti's other attributes...looks...ease of care...strength...weight.

If you do, Campy, give Seven a try. Go to Rob Vandermark and let him do a frame concept, following your very personal gidelines and requirements. I think, it's only Seven who is able to give a Ti frame exactly the stiffness you want on a scale from 1 to 10. They are doing it gradually by adopting tube diameters and material strengths to order. I think, no second frame builder is able to do so at moment.

And I can assure you, after having had several Sevens in my hands and comparing them to other brands I saw, nothing compares in weld quality, beauty and over-all-appearance (Moots does up to a certain degree, but they are not into that degree of custom building, but high-end quality and beauty as Seven all the way!).

Ok, Ti might be a friction heavier than CF (200 - 300 g?), but what a difference in safety and appearance. And once cracked, it is, simular to steel, a question of hours to take the cracked tube out and place a new one in. Advantage to steel: you even don't need to give the frame a new repaint!

I always ask 'why', if aluminum and Ti are so great, that neither material is used successfully (perhaps more correctly: commonly in commercial production) as as fork material?

There are a few Ti production forks out in the market - quite expensive though. And it seems as if anybody needs to ride (cheap) CF forks nowadays, so it might be difficult to market (much-to-deer) Ti forks?

 

[531Aussie]

Now, it seems like every third post is something like: "I scratched my $5000 Pinarello Prince...is it safe to ride?" It seems like we've come so far, yet are trading product life and ease of care for weight (I'm guilty, as charged, your honor!).

too true. There are too many (in my opinion) threads about broken bits on all the forums, especially on Weight Weenies. I figure the sales blurbs should read: "this year's product is 200g lighter than last year's, but also weaker, less durable and more flexy", even though the companies usually claim to have covered all bases. They just shave weight to make their product more attractive in the brochure.

For example, why did LOOK change their pedal spindle on most of their models from a 6mm hex to 8mm? Just to hollow out the axle to reduce weight? It's silly.

Also, I don't believe that a 'new alloy' or 'new design' can be SO superior from only one year to the next (a relative short period of time) that a bike part can drop, say, 20% in weight (like, for eg, a stem), yet still maintain its strength and and rigidity.

[
I always ask 'why', if aluminum and Ti are so great, that neither material is used successfully (perhaps more correctly: commonly in commercial production) as as fork material?

Fair question.

As you probably remember, in the beginning we were told that alu was too harsh as a fork material for the early (stiff) alu bikes, so they went to steel, then carbon. I've also heard that Klein, after doing all his testing, determined that alu fork blades were too weak and dangerous.

I have 3 old alu forks with threaded 1" steel steerers, and they seem ok -- not stiff at all.

Dunno about ti, but apprently it's too difficult and expensive to bend and form, which is why we don't see ti bars...?? ....then why don't they just make straigh-bladed ti forks? Good question, Aussie

I figure it's ended up being mostly about fashion/expectation: people just expect they'll be getting a 300g carbon fork on their new bike because it's 'great' and the only thing suitable.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Teledyne/Speedwell tried Ti forks. I think the manufacturing technology has been in place for decades.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Teledyne/Teledyne_titan.htm

 

[Vincent Kluwe]

Teledyne/Speedwell tried Ti forks.

Sibex. Pace: they do the fork with straight Ti blades on order - at least they told me so two years ago on request, before they had the forks produced by DT-Swiss. I might be wrong, but I mean to remember, that I have even seen a Ti Pace somewhere. And if so, it was looking extremely good! Anyway worth asking them: http://www.pace-racing.co.uk/product.asp?catID=2&subcat=492

 

[Tonto]

Hi,
Dr. Kluwe, my apologies for neglecting this thread for so long. I've been off the bike for a few months now. I have a new job which has me away from home fve days a week and so my weekends have become shorter and leave me with no time for cycling. When I don't ride, I have little desire to come on here as it makes me feel even worse about not getting out on my bike.
Anyway, the last few weekends I've managed some short spins and so I finally got round to snapping my Officia Girardi.
It's built up with Campy Veloce shifters, Centaur rear derailleur, Chorus 10spd (13-26) chain and cassette, FSA compact chainset, BB and front derailleur. Forks are Advanced FLQ with carbon steerer. Stem and bars are Zoom alloy/carbon. The wheels are the one thing I'm not 100% satisfied with. The Campy Vento's perform fine and are absolutely bomb-proof but the rear wheel wheels is damn heavy. I've promised myself a new set for the summer if I earn it by doing enough training between now and then. So, at least here is a photo of a rather mucky bike (I think the mud makes even prettier ):


Hope you're all well and doing lots of steel-mounted miles!

 

[Vincent Kluwe]

Hope you're all well and doing lots of steel-mounted miles!

Thank you so much, Tonto! Yes, I'm doing well and I've done roundabout 600 kms in January, which is pretty well for an old man's winter ride following my own private standards.

Nice to see your new ride. All in all very coherent. Compliments! I hope you find a more satisfying wheelset for next season.

By the way I'm having a good digi cam finally and the photos it makes are just perfect. It's a Nikon D 40, the cheapest of the professional line (big full size chip that is).

 

[Tonto]

Thank you so much, Tonto! Yes, I'm doing well and I've done roundabout 600 kms in January, which is pretty well for an old man's winter ride following my own private standards.

Nice to see your new ride. All in all very coherent. Compliments! I hope you find a more satisfying wheelset for next season.

By the way I'm having a good digi cam finally and the photos it makes are just perfect. It's a Nikon D 40, the cheapest of the professional line (big full size chip that is).

Wow that's impressive mileage for January. I'm Berlin has been even colder and more miserable that here.
I have my eye on an upgraded set of Campy wheels for the summer. Scirocco or Proton. I like Campy wheels in general.

 

[Vincent Kluwe]

Isn't it great fun to use such a lovely camera?

P.S. I would have done 100 more. Unhappily a massive cold struck me down to bed for the last 5 days. I am only fetching a cold every two or three years, but then really bad.

 

[Tonto]

I saw this article this morning and I thought it was worth resurrecting my favourite cyclingforums thread:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/graeme-obree-bidding-for-hour-record-again-21712

Nice 631 frame eh?

 

[golfcycle]

Are steel frames good for light weight people? I was once reading a review on a steel framed bike (Pegoretti) and the writer said it wasn't a bike for the smaller build because s/he would bounce around a lot'.


I use to own a steelframe and it was one of the most comfortable rides ever. I'm thinking of getting another one in the future.

Who are some of the good manufacturers of steel frames these days?

I've had dozens of road bikes and the ride of a good steel road frame is really hard to beat. I have a Dave Lloyd right now and it rides beautifully. It's made from Deda tubing in a lugged configuration. I'd have to say the best steel road frames I've ever ridden were from Serotta and Waterford. They were quick, resilient and comfortable.

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

I also prefer a high quality steel frame, or Titanium frame(even more shock absorption value).

Possibly a nice carbon frame(lugged) - directional carbon, but they tend to run $2000-3500 for something nice and worth wild. I just say NO to aluminum.