Stem slipping even at proper torque

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Bestest Handsander, Apr 14, 2006.

  1. I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset Adjuster
    (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and compression
    device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.

    My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the stem still
    likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening the whole
    thing. As far as I can see it my options are:

    1. Buy a compression device and use the top cap instead of Easton's device.
    2. Roughen the steerer tube with some sandpaper where the stem attaches.
    3. Over torque the stem bolts.

    I think three my leave me "hincapie'd". I don't know if two will. One looks
    like my best bet even if it will weigh a few grams more.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks!
     
    Tags:


  2. G.T.

    G.T. Guest

    "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset Adjuster
    > (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and compression
    > device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.
    >
    > My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the stem

    still
    > likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening the

    whole
    > thing.


    Are you sure that's what is happening?

    Greg
     
  3. "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset Adjuster
    >> (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and compression
    >> device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.
    >>
    >> My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the stem

    > still
    >> likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening the

    > whole
    >> thing.

    >
    > Are you sure that's what is happening?


    No, not positive. The amount of distance it needs to move to come loose is
    so small I can't confirm it with me ruler. I don't think the play is coming
    from the crown race, the upper or lower cups( which have been on the bike
    for two years. I make sure the fork is snug against the bottom cup, then
    apply a fair amount of pressure to the stem and tighten the bolts with my
    torque wrench. Then I adjust the bear trap until it is tight (using the
    "pick up the bike, lower the front, turn the bars and make sure they return
    to the middle" method). It doesn't take much.

    I suppose the fork race could be moving, but I can't see that it has.
     
  4. G.T.

    G.T. Guest

    "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >> I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset

    Adjuster
    > >> (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and compression
    > >> device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.
    > >>
    > >> My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the stem

    > > still
    > >> likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening the

    > > whole
    > >> thing.

    > >
    > > Are you sure that's what is happening?

    >
    > No, not positive. The amount of distance it needs to move to come loose is
    > so small I can't confirm it with me ruler. I don't think the play is

    coming
    > from the crown race, the upper or lower cups( which have been on the bike
    > for two years. I make sure the fork is snug against the bottom cup, then
    > apply a fair amount of pressure to the stem and tighten the bolts with my
    > torque wrench. Then I adjust the bear trap until it is tight (using the
    > "pick up the bike, lower the front, turn the bars and make sure they

    return
    > to the middle" method). It doesn't take much.
    >


    I'm totally unfamiliar with the bear trap only having used star nuts. Could
    it be something to do with the bear trap? What's the proper torque for the
    stem bolts?

    Greg
     
  5. Bill

    Bill Guest

    "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > >
    > > > "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]
    > > >> I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset

    > Adjuster
    > > >> (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and

    compression
    > > >> device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.
    > > >>
    > > >> My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the stem
    > > > still
    > > >> likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening the
    > > > whole
    > > >> thing.
    > > >
    > > > Are you sure that's what is happening?

    > >
    > > No, not positive. The amount of distance it needs to move to come loose

    is
    > > so small I can't confirm it with me ruler. I don't think the play is

    > coming
    > > from the crown race, the upper or lower cups( which have been on the

    bike
    > > for two years. I make sure the fork is snug against the bottom cup, then
    > > apply a fair amount of pressure to the stem and tighten the bolts with

    my
    > > torque wrench. Then I adjust the bear trap until it is tight (using the
    > > "pick up the bike, lower the front, turn the bars and make sure they

    > return
    > > to the middle" method). It doesn't take much.


    If I understand the sequence, you are tightening the stem before you tighten
    the preload (top cap). Tighten the top cap with stem loose. THEN, tighten
    the stem bolts. The stem secures the system. The top cap sets the tension
    but does not maintain it.
    Bill
    > >

    >
    > I'm totally unfamiliar with the bear trap only having used star nuts.

    Could
    > it be something to do with the bear trap? What's the proper torque for

    the
    > stem bolts?
    >
    > Greg
    >
    >
     
  6. G.T.

    G.T. Guest

    "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:3qY%[email protected]
    > "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]
    > > > >
    > > > > "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > news:[email protected]
    > > > >> I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset

    > > Adjuster
    > > > >> (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and

    > compression
    > > > >> device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the

    stem
    > > > > still
    > > > >> likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening

    the
    > > > > whole
    > > > >> thing.
    > > > >
    > > > > Are you sure that's what is happening?
    > > >
    > > > No, not positive. The amount of distance it needs to move to come

    loose
    > is
    > > > so small I can't confirm it with me ruler. I don't think the play is

    > > coming
    > > > from the crown race, the upper or lower cups( which have been on the

    > bike
    > > > for two years. I make sure the fork is snug against the bottom cup,

    then
    > > > apply a fair amount of pressure to the stem and tighten the bolts with

    > my
    > > > torque wrench. Then I adjust the bear trap until it is tight (using

    the
    > > > "pick up the bike, lower the front, turn the bars and make sure they

    > > return
    > > > to the middle" method). It doesn't take much.

    >
    > If I understand the sequence, you are tightening the stem before you

    tighten
    > the preload (top cap). Tighten the top cap with stem loose. THEN, tighten
    > the stem bolts. The stem secures the system. The top cap sets the tension
    > but does not maintain it.


    He's using a bear trap which goes under the stem. In this case, you tighten
    the stem, and then from looking at Easton's instructions you expand the bear
    trap. Maybe the bear trap is slightly collapsing?

    Greg
     
  7. "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >> If I understand the sequence, you are tightening the stem before you

    > tighten
    >> the preload (top cap). Tighten the top cap with stem loose. THEN, tighten
    >> the stem bolts. The stem secures the system. The top cap sets the tension
    >> but does not maintain it.

    >
    > He's using a bear trap which goes under the stem. In this case, you
    > tighten
    > the stem, and then from looking at Easton's instructions you expand the
    > bear
    > trap. Maybe the bear trap is slightly collapsing?
    >


    That right, Greg. You tighten the stem. Then you expand the bear trap to
    take up the slack. I get it nice and tight, but after 40 miles or so, the
    bear trap is loose the steerer is wobbling in the headtube.

    I picked up a Problem Solver compression plug at the LBS. I'll put it on for
    the weekend and see how it works.
     
  8. On 2006-04-14, Bestest Handsander <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset Adjuster
    > (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and compression
    > device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.
    >
    > My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the stem still
    > likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening the whole
    > thing. As far as I can see it my options are:
    >
    > 1. Buy a compression device and use the top cap instead of Easton's device.
    > 2. Roughen the steerer tube with some sandpaper where the stem attaches.
    > 3. Over torque the stem bolts.


    One more option - try if an "anti-lube", designed to increase the
    friction, helps. Such as this one:

    http://www.roseversand.de/output/controller.aspx?cid=156&detail=10&detail2=5480

    Konstantin.
     
  9. Bestest Handsander wrote:
    > I have a new Easton EC90 SLX fork. I'm using the Easton Headset Adjuster
    > (bear-trap type)that come with it instead of a top cap and compression
    > device. An FSA OS115 stem is mounted on it.
    >
    > My problem is that even when tightened to the proper torque, the stem still
    > likes to slide up the tube during the first ride or two loosening the whole
    > thing. As far as I can see it my options are:
    >
    > 1. Buy a compression device and use the top cap instead of Easton's device.
    > 2. Roughen the steerer tube with some sandpaper where the stem attaches.
    > 3. Over torque the stem bolts.
    >
    > I think three my leave me "hincapie'd". I don't know if two will. One looks
    > like my best bet even if it will weigh a few grams more.
    >
    > Thoughts?
    >
    > Thanks!


    Do number 1, what we do with this daffy adjuster-The Profile one works
    well.
     
  10. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote


    >> He's using a bear trap which goes under the stem. In this case, you
    >> tighten
    >> the stem, and then from looking at Easton's instructions you expand the
    >> bear
    >> trap. Maybe the bear trap is slightly collapsing?

    >
    >That right, Greg. You tighten the stem. Then you expand the bear trap to
    >take up the slack. I get it nice and tight, but after 40 miles or so, the
    >bear trap is loose the steerer is wobbling in the headtube.
    >
    >I picked up a Problem Solver compression plug at the LBS. I'll put it on for
    >the weekend and see how it works.


    Sorry, but you wasted your money (at least in terms of solving the
    slippage problem). The compression plug / star nut are only there to
    adjust the preload prior to clamping the stem down (which is what
    holds the system all in place after adjustment).

    If a properly adjusted headset/stem comes loose during the ride, it
    has nothing to do with the adjuster, but with the stem.

    My guess - the steer tube and/or stem are distorted and no longer
    round. The whole system relies on a solid mechanical interface
    between the two to prevent slilppage. The only other thing I can
    think of is that perhaps the threads in your stem's clamp are grungy
    enough that the proper torque isn't resulting in enough "sqeeze" - you
    might try cleaning and greasing those threads. A related issue could
    be a stripped stem clamp bolt that's "losing a turn" under the added
    stress of riding?

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame
     
  11. Oddly, I just installed an Easton EC90 SL fork on my bike three days
    ago. (I got the SL because my bike's head tube takes 1" steerers, and
    the SLX is only available in 1.125"). Though my fork included
    instructions for both a steerer plug and the beartrap device, only the
    beartrap device was included.

    I agree with Peter--the beartrap device is a little daffy. I don't know
    why Easton switched to it from the plug. The beartrap looks and feels
    fairly kudgy, and I just couldn't bear it (no pun intended). I ended up
    just ordering the Problem Solvers compression plug, and I've been very
    happy with it.

    For what it's worth, I'm using a 3T Less XL stem (120 mm), which
    includes an aluminum 1"-1.125" shim, and I haven't had any problems
    with the stem slipping. The torque spec on the two clamping bolts is 9
    n-m, I believe.

    For what it's worth, I like the plug more than the beartrap from an
    engineering perspective. The plug applies an internal pressure, which
    partially counteracts the external pressure from tightening the stem
    around the steerer. The pressures are almost certainly not equal and
    opposite, but they're a lot closer than they would be without the
    internal plug.

    Let us know if your new plug helps.

    Jason
     
  12. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Oddly, I just installed an Easton EC90 SL fork on my bike three days
    > ago. (I got the SL because my bike's head tube takes 1" steerers, and
    > the SLX is only available in 1.125"). Though my fork included
    > instructions for both a steerer plug and the beartrap device, only the
    > beartrap device was included.
    >
    > I agree with Peter--the beartrap device is a little daffy. I don't know
    > why Easton switched to it from the plug. The beartrap looks and feels
    > fairly kudgy, and I just couldn't bear it (no pun intended). I ended up
    > just ordering the Problem Solvers compression plug, and I've been very
    > happy with it.


    This "bear trap" device ... I don't see it on Easton's web site. Is it
    this thing on the fork installation pdf?
    http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files/instal_instr/fork-EN.pdf

    > For what it's worth, I'm using a 3T Less XL stem (120 mm), which
    > includes an aluminum 1"-1.125" shim, and I haven't had any problems
    > with the stem slipping. The torque spec on the two clamping bolts is 9
    > n-m, I believe.
    >
    > For what it's worth, I like the plug more than the beartrap from an
    > engineering perspective. The plug applies an internal pressure, which
    > partially counteracts the external pressure from tightening the stem
    > around the steerer. The pressures are almost certainly not equal and
    > opposite, but they're a lot closer than they would be without the
    > internal plug.
    >
    > Let us know if your new plug helps.
    >
    > Jason
    >



    Robin Hubert
     
  13. On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:23:16 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >"Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote

    >
    >>> He's using a bear trap which goes under the stem. In this case, you
    >>> tighten
    >>> the stem, and then from looking at Easton's instructions you expand the
    >>> bear
    >>> trap. Maybe the bear trap is slightly collapsing?

    >>
    >>That right, Greg. You tighten the stem. Then you expand the bear trap to
    >>take up the slack. I get it nice and tight, but after 40 miles or so, the
    >>bear trap is loose the steerer is wobbling in the headtube.
    >>
    >>I picked up a Problem Solver compression plug at the LBS. I'll put it on for
    >>the weekend and see how it works.

    >
    >Sorry, but you wasted your money (at least in terms of solving the
    >slippage problem). The compression plug / star nut are only there to
    >adjust the preload prior to clamping the stem down (which is what
    >holds the system all in place after adjustment).


    Come on, you can do better than that. He's using a system now where *that
    is not the case*. The 'bear trap' is a set of conical washers which go
    *between* the stem and the headset and which expand *after* you've
    tightened the stem. If that's failing, then replacing it with a
    conventional top cap preload adjustment device might work.

    >If a properly adjusted headset/stem comes loose during the ride, it
    >has nothing to do with the adjuster, but with the stem.


    Except in the case of a beartrap, which is always in the system, and thus
    can be a problem.

    Jasper
     
  14. Robin Hubert wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > Oddly, I just installed an Easton EC90 SL fork on my bike three days
    > > ago. (I got the SL because my bike's head tube takes 1" steerers, and
    > > the SLX is only available in 1.125"). Though my fork included
    > > instructions for both a steerer plug and the beartrap device, only the
    > > beartrap device was included.
    > >
    > > I agree with Peter--the beartrap device is a little daffy. I don't know
    > > why Easton switched to it from the plug. The beartrap looks and feels
    > > fairly kudgy, and I just couldn't bear it (no pun intended). I ended up
    > > just ordering the Problem Solvers compression plug, and I've been very
    > > happy with it.

    >
    > This "bear trap" device ... I don't see it on Easton's web site. Is it
    > this thing on the fork installation pdf?
    > http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files/instal_instr/fork-EN.pdf
    >
    > > For what it's worth, I'm using a 3T Less XL stem (120 mm), which
    > > includes an aluminum 1"-1.125" shim, and I haven't had any problems
    > > with the stem slipping. The torque spec on the two clamping bolts is 9
    > > n-m, I believe.
    > >
    > > For what it's worth, I like the plug more than the beartrap from an
    > > engineering perspective. The plug applies an internal pressure, which
    > > partially counteracts the external pressure from tightening the stem
    > > around the steerer. The pressures are almost certainly not equal and
    > > opposite, but they're a lot closer than they would be without the
    > > internal plug.
    > >
    > > Let us know if your new plug helps.
    > >
    > > Jason
    > >

    >
    >
    > Robin Hubert


    Having an expansion plug does two things. As mentioned, expands the
    steerer a wee bit and also does hold the stem 'down' a wee bit that may
    help the stem slipping up the steerer. The Easton thing is a widget
    that expands on the outside of the steerer, under the stem, to adjust
    the HS. Poor design, IMO and we replace many with conventional
    expanders.
     
  15. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Robin Hubert wrote:
    > > [email protected] wrote:
    > > > Oddly, I just installed an Easton EC90 SL fork on my bike three days
    > > > ago. (I got the SL because my bike's head tube takes 1" steerers, and
    > > > the SLX is only available in 1.125"). Though my fork included
    > > > instructions for both a steerer plug and the beartrap device, only the
    > > > beartrap device was included.
    > > >
    > > > I agree with Peter--the beartrap device is a little daffy. I don't know
    > > > why Easton switched to it from the plug. The beartrap looks and feels
    > > > fairly kudgy, and I just couldn't bear it (no pun intended). I ended up
    > > > just ordering the Problem Solvers compression plug, and I've been very
    > > > happy with it.

    > >
    > > This "bear trap" device ... I don't see it on Easton's web site. Is it
    > > this thing on the fork installation pdf?
    > > http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files/instal_instr/fork-EN.pdf
    > >
    > > > For what it's worth, I'm using a 3T Less XL stem (120 mm), which
    > > > includes an aluminum 1"-1.125" shim, and I haven't had any problems
    > > > with the stem slipping. The torque spec on the two clamping bolts is 9
    > > > n-m, I believe.
    > > >
    > > > For what it's worth, I like the plug more than the beartrap from an
    > > > engineering perspective. The plug applies an internal pressure, which
    > > > partially counteracts the external pressure from tightening the stem
    > > > around the steerer. The pressures are almost certainly not equal and
    > > > opposite, but they're a lot closer than they would be without the
    > > > internal plug.
    > > >
    > > > Let us know if your new plug helps.
    > > >
    > > > Jason
    > > >

    > >
    > >
    > > Robin Hubert

    >
    > Having an expansion plug does two things. As mentioned, expands the
    > steerer a wee bit and also does hold the stem 'down' a wee bit that may
    > help the stem slipping up the steerer. The Easton thing is a widget
    > that expands on the outside of the steerer, under the stem, to adjust
    > the HS. Poor design, IMO and we replace many with conventional
    > expanders.


    The Time and Easton thing looks to be identical to the USE Ring-Go-Star
    device.

    http://www.performancebike.com/shop/Profile.cfm?SKU=18850&item=50-2617&slitrk=search&slisearch=true
     
  16. Greg Estep

    Greg Estep Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > For those of you curious about the beartrap mechanism, Time uses a part
    > that is functionally identical to the Easton part we've been
    > discussing:
    >
    > http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=FK4440
    >
    > If both Time and Easton are using this part instead of a compression
    > plug, I'd love to know what it is.



    $50!!!??!!! Wow! An compression plug is only $25.

    After looking at a some of the other options it appears that QBP (under
    the Problem Solvers brand) offers a similar device for $22.

    http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=HD9970

    --
    Greg Estep
     
  17. "Greg Estep" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >> For those of you curious about the beartrap mechanism, Time uses a part
    >> that is functionally identical to the Easton part we've been
    >> discussing:
    >>
    >> http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=FK4440
    >>
    >> If both Time and Easton are using this part instead of a compression
    >> plug, I'd love to know what it is.

    >
    >
    > $50!!!??!!! Wow! An compression plug is only $25.
    >
    > After looking at a some of the other options it appears that QBP (under
    > the Problem Solvers brand) offers a similar device for $22.
    >
    > http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=HD9970
    >
    > --
    > Greg Estep


    That's what I got Friday night from my LBS for $15. I installed it and round
    over 100 miles this weekend. The stem is as tight as when I put it on.
    Anyone want an Easton bear trap?
     
  18. "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >> Oddly, I just installed an Easton EC90 SL fork on my bike three days
    >> ago. (I got the SL because my bike's head tube takes 1" steerers, and
    >> the SLX is only available in 1.125"). Though my fork included
    >> instructions for both a steerer plug and the beartrap device, only the
    >> beartrap device was included.
    >>
    >> I agree with Peter--the beartrap device is a little daffy. I don't know
    >> why Easton switched to it from the plug. The beartrap looks and feels
    >> fairly kudgy, and I just couldn't bear it (no pun intended). I ended up
    >> just ordering the Problem Solvers compression plug, and I've been very
    >> happy with it.

    >
    > This "bear trap" device ... I don't see it on Easton's web site. Is it
    > this thing on the fork installation pdf?
    > http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files/instal_instr/fork-EN.pdf


    No, that's their standard form install instructions with a compression
    device. Here are the instructions for the bear trap.

    http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files/instal_instr/beartrap-EN.pdf
     
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