Steve Bauer, can you be specific?????

Discussion in 'The Bike Cafe' started by Fausto Coppied, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    Hey Steve, I read this on Canadian Cyclist:



    "SB (Steve Bauer): I was impressed at the level of racing. I was impressed at Beauce and the Nationals. I liked the races and how Canadians were riding. There's more depth domestically than when I was racing, there's more opportunity with teams, there's more possibility to get in a squad. It's much deeper and there's more opportunities now than back in the 90s, even during the Evian/Magicuts and Canadian Tire days. The North American circuit is very strong and there are more of Canadian teams with budgets and good opportunities. That being said, more needs to be done."

    Can you tell us how they are now more Canadian teams with the budgets to hire and support the best Canadian riders than the 1990. I see only one (Symmetrics) , maybe two teams, yours included. If these teams exsit why are all the best Canadians on teams outside of Canada, other than Symmetrics? Rollin, Dionne, Barry, Walters, Hesjedal and others all rider for team outside of Canada. Back in the early 1990s only you and Walton were the top Canadians who rode for foreign teams all the rest found squads at home.


    Let’s say Symmetrics is the new Evian Team and your RACE squad is the new Magicuts (they are not yet but let’s say they are), where are Bloor Cycle, Toronto Italia, Espoirs Laval and all the other strong provincial clubs that used to travel the country, even the continent? The North American scene is strong but where are the Canadian teams and the high level Canadian races that exist now that didn't exist then. The calendar was much busier back then.

    Where are the Canada Cups, Where is the Canadian Tire Series, Where is the Canadian Tire National Cycling Series for the Euro pros. Where are the downtown Toronto Races? Where is Tour of Lac St. Jean. Where are any road races in all of Alberta, and Manitoba? Not to mention Saskatchewan because we know thank to Bill Kinash there has never been a decent road race in SK in 30 years. Where are the races up the escarpment in Hamilton? Where is the legacy race PROMISED to us in Hamilton?

    Where are the races with the $20,000 or more in prize money?

    Where are the Men's World Road Cups?

    When we will ever see a real pro field back in Ontario? Remember Sean Kelly and the boys at Queens Park? Remember Frankie Andreu winning that race in Hamilton before the World Cup?


    Where are there other Canadian Stage races for men other than Beauce which was still on back then anyway?

    Most of all where is any mainstream news coverage of CDN cycling?

    Fill us in on some specifics.

    Steve, it is all very well to say thing are better, can you prove it?



    PS Next time you are in Virginia, if you see Oliver Martin tell him he owes me $100 with 15 years of compounded interest!
     
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  2. Jasmineminor

    Jasmineminor New Member

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    Since we are playing remember when (my grandada who had dementia played it all the time too)

    How about this

    At one time most Canadian Businesses where Canadian owned and managed.
    Now the biggest and best are foreign owned - Alcan, Stelco, Dofasco, Hudson's Bay, Four Seasons Hotel chain, Vincor, Falconbridge, Inco, Algoma, MacMillan Bloedel, Eatons, Seagram, Corel, CP Ships Ltd, Molson Brewery, ATI Technologies, Tim Hortons, CCM) - to name a few that are all owned by foreigners.

    Canada used to have the best hockey teams (and players) in the World. The NHL was 6 teams. Montreal Canadiens and the Maple Leafs swapped "the cup" back and forth between them.
    Now they can't make the playoffs, and all the top players are on US teams.

    Then came the "expansion".

    Quebec City had an NHL team for a few years.

    It went broke and was sold to Colorado.

    Toronto Blue Jays were World Champions once upon a time
    Now they can't make the playoffs either.

    Montreal had a baseball team called the Expos
    It was sold to an American after the franchise went broke.

    Soccer is the #1 sport in the world (as far as participation).
    How many times has Canada attempted to put together a pro organization?

    Once upon a time there was the Canadian Tire Cycling series
    Then after 5 years Can Tire decided they did not want to fund the series and moved on. All the teams that rose up during the series disbanded. Top Canadiin riders go to US teams.

    See a pattern here?

    No of course not. ...... you still live in the past.
     
  3. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    OK, Jasmine, you idiot.

    On one hand we have Steve Bauer saying things are BETTER than in the early 1990's.

    I say they are not.

    You say they are not.

    So, what you are saying is that you agree with me and not Bauer.

    So Bauer is wrong?

    Right?
     
  4. kevinfield

    kevinfield New Member

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    Hi Ed,

    Current Canadian registered UCI trade teams:

    - Symmetrics
    - EVA
    - Calyon Litespeed
    - VW Trek

    RACE was not a UCI trade team this year, but they certainly were good and I think they were a CCA registered trade team. They will be UCI next year. And they will have a very good budget. I would put them on the list of good teams -- especially with Bauer at the healm and the plans they have for the next few years. The Lazy Boy team out of BC, and the Red Truck team were quite good this year too.

    Canadians racing in the US on Trade Teams were:

    - M Walters
    - D Rollin
    - D Perras
    - F Parisien
    - R Roth
    - M Gilbert
    - K Lacombe
    - Ryder H

    In the 90's it wasn't uncommon for teams to be only 6-7 riders. Now teams are generally 10+, often 12-14 and even more.

    In the early 90's there were only 3-4 quality teams racing domestically in the US. Now there are 8-9:

    - HNet
    - Toyota
    - Priority Health
    - Kodak
    - Navigators
    - Jelly Belly
    - Slipstream
    - Rock
    - AEG Toshiba
    - BMC

    The infrastructure on teams these days far exceeds what was standard in the early 90's. For example at the tour of Missouri - which I recently attended - teams had upwards of 9 staff to support 8 riders or a greater than 1:1 support to rider ratio. A typical team like the ones I've mentioned above will have vehicle fleets of 6-9 cars/vans/trucks etc. In the early 90's 2 vehicles were luxury, 3 vehicles were rare. I remember Saturn's first equipment truck in '94 being a simple little cube van. Today team's like BMC, Navigators, HNet have $100K super-rigs fully kitted for mech's and soigneurs. But you need that to manage the upwards of 80-100 bikes a pro team in NA will use in a typical season now... compared to what... 2 bikes per guy or a 14-20 bikes back in the Evian/Magicuts days?

    Infrastructure and support has a direct impact on increasing performance. When athletes are better supported they can focus on greater acheivements.

    Granted you are right in citing Gord's quotes. Prize money today is less than in the early 90's. The calibre of races in Canada - if you call prize money calibre -- is lower. But the calibre of the athletes overall is higher... the Canadians just have to race more often in the States or abroad. But that is another change. The evolution of the internet and cycling niche media has made the world seem like a smaller place and riders these days don't think much about going and doing a race in China, Japan, Europe, Australia whatever. Dipping down to the states today is kinda viewed the same a trip between Montreal and Toronto would have been in the early 90's.

    Training has improved, and riders understanding of training has improved since the 90's. Thanks in great part to the ubiquity of power training, which really does eliminate the guess work. This has balanced and raised the level accross the peleton, that and the increase in well supported teams has changed the dynamic of racing to be more 'pro' style, rather than gung-ho 'amateur' style from the 90's. I think that too is what Bauer was refering to. He did specifically cite Beauce and the Nationals.

    I did not see Gord and Steve's recent comments being in conflict. Rather I took them as talking about two aspects of the sport. Steve was talking about the calibre of teams and opportunities on teams -- which is better than in the 90's when arguably Canadian riders were competing for the 21-28 spots available on Evian, Magicuts, Toronto Italia and Espoir Laval. Now they have a shot at upwards of 70 spots on the teams listed above.

    Gord was right, prize money sort of sucks now compared to then. And the loss of the CT / Canada Cup series has never been replaced. Likewise races like the Tour of Southern Ontario, North York, Fonthill Classic are all gone... but maybe we can thank Laura Robinson for that?

    Teams however are much healthier than they were in the early 90's and Canadian riders are seeing more opportunities than at that time... or that is my opinion.

    And I think you might owe Svein Tuft a bit of an apology. He is much much more than a just a TT rider. Saying as much sort of shows a bit of ignorance to contemporary cycling on your part Ed. I've spent more than 70 race days with the guys on Symmetrics the last two seasons, and I can assure you Svein is a savvy savvy road racer in every way. Sure he's no super sprinter and never will be, but he can friggin win a road race and totally know's what's going down.

    In another thread I was told you claimed Symmetrics budget is not greater that Evian's was in its heyday.. .I heard you said Evian's budget was 325K. I can assure you Symmetrics budget exceeds this.

    Its tough to compare one era to another... like comparing Merckx to Armstrong. Cycling changes, and those changes make comparisons hard. But I feel pretty comfortable saying that Symmetrics is a bigger team than Evian was. And I mean no disrespect in that. In many ways Ed you paved the way for a team like Symmetrics. You opened alot of peoples eyes to possiblities they'd not thought acheivable by a Canadian team. Instead of trying to slam today's teams and riders maybe you should -- rightly so -- claim you paved the way for them.

    But the simple increase in scale of cycling now compared to then has required Symmetrics to be bigger. And Symmetrics has backed that up by now winning the individual and team classification of the Americas Tour this season, and the team has 5 of Canada's top 10 UCI ranked riders... and has earned about 60% of the UCI points that moved Canada up to 3rd ranked Nation in the UCI standings. Its hard for me to keep track of the count, but I think the team has won more than 75 races this year. The US Open win, was a calibre of win I can't ever remember a Canadian on a Canadian team ever acheiving before?
     
  5. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    Very good points Kevin.

    You seemed to have disproved Jasmine!!!

    I know things in the US are better than they were there in early 1990s. I'm still not convinced things in Canada are better.

    They are different of course but better I'm not sure.
    Certainly the media atention was far greater in the 1990s in Canada.

    All that being said I certainly believe things can be and should be better.

    Your point about all the Canadians on foreign teams reflects what I was saying.

    You shifted back and forth between US and Canada teams. While H-Net may have 60 bikes, I doubt Symmetrics does, right?

    Another thing about Symmetrics is if they indeed have so much money why are they so reticent to say so? If you divulged more info it might lead other sponsors to open their wallets as well.

    Typically when the sum of money are not announced like with Louis Garneau and Tim Hortons we know it is because the sums are so low.

    Finally, we really need to see more events in more provinces before we can even begin to say things are better.

    What is the point of having these great teams if they races elsewhere all season. You won't get many big Canadian sponsors with a team that is MIA 90% of the time.

    As for Tuft, I'm simply going by his own biography. This year was breakout year for him. In the past he hasn't won many road races, only TTs. That's not to say he is not a great rider he just is not necessarily a winning rider.

    As for the Americas Pro Tour, if I am not mistaken, many of the best US riders chose not to partcipate in many of the races because they were doing bigger Euro races. All this point chasing is bullshit in my opinion. It is the UCI's way of makign riders and team jump thorugh hops, hoops that they control.
     
  6. kevinfield

    kevinfield New Member

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    Hey Ed,

    Overall I'm not sure I would say cycling is better now either. The same maybe. While our Canadian races need improvement, our teams are better.

    The point about waffling between US and Canada examples was to drive the point that world is smaller to riders these days. They travel more. Is that better? Maybe, maybe not. But the reality is it's no longer about just racing in the US, or Canada, or South America or Europe. If you're a big team you race everywhere now. The riders today see this and understand this, and it presents them with more opportunities -- this was Bauer's point. Gord's point was if the prize money we had in the early 90's never dropped off, he might not have ever have left Canada... is that good or bad?

    Hell in the 90's if you were in Toronto you often didn't know what was going on in Montreal. Today, you now within minutes of a big race ending anywhere in the world whats happened. That makes riders these days think beyond provinical and national borders. It makes them see more opportunities. And the team's think beyond those borders too. I think that is good for Canadian cycling and good for the cyclists. We have more riders racing on forgein teams now than ever before. That makes up and coming riders think there is a future.

    To your other points. Yes Symmetrics has more than 60 bikes, more than 100 sets of wheels and so on and so on. Did you not see M. Hansen's photo story of the team's warehouse? The team has two cars, a min van, an 18 passenger van. a 24 ft. equipment trailer and a smaller trailer as well a 16 ft one I think.

    And I don't know any team -- then or now -- that truly reveal their budgets. That's always been pretty hush hush stuff. It was for you then, and it is for us now. Suffice it to say that what makes Symmetrics a bit unique is Kevin C's commitment. He is a wealthy guy who is essentially a financier to the team. When the team needs more money it comes... within reason. Not unlike Slipstream's Doug Ellis and like G Squinzi was for Mapei.

    Your point about the US team's not focusing on the America's tour is true. But I don't think that dimishes Symmetrics acheivements. In fact I know it doesn't, 'cause I talk to other directors, riders and race organizers in the States and know that the level of recognition for the team and respect is on the rise -- because of the America's Tour, coupled with the fact that some of its most solid AT performances were in US races - US Open, Wachovia and the Tour of Mo.

    As a team you are always jumping through someone's hoop. If its not the UCI's it's the NRC's or CTC's whatever. There's always some game to play Ed, you know that as well as I do.
     
  7. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    I think some of the differences you have describe are a result UCI rule changes and the merging of FICP and FIAA, or whatever those amateur and professional federations were called. The UCI set certain standards and made it necessry to comply with them. The UCI now makes more money.The big difference between Canada and the US are the events available to ride in there. Canada has very few men's road events worth mentioning and they exist only in Quebec and BC.

    Laura Robinson and her stupid bylaw abut equal prize money killed racing in Toronto but what about the rest of the province?

    Without more direction and leaderdship from the CCA I doubt very much any new races will be created.

    Without more races I do not see how the sport can grow in Canada.

    A tip for Symmetrics, hire a French Canadian rider and feed his results to the Quebec sport media at least they will get media coverage there. Thirteen guys not one Quebec rider, esti?
     
  8. kevinfield

    kevinfield New Member

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    Ed, Symmetrics will have a high profile Quebec rider next year for sure. We tried last year too, but it didn't work out. I think the best young riders - juniors and espoirs - are always and consistently from Quebec.
     
  9. Jasmineminor

    Jasmineminor New Member

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    HMMMMM

    More teams, teams are bigger, more opportunities to more riders, bigger races, better tech support and on and on and on.

    $$ is less, but more opportunities to more riders.

    I will take more more opportunities to more riders any day. Great for Developement!

    Kevin thanks for putting Ed in his place. He has not been in the game for sooooo long now and the rules have changed.

    And Ed. where is that apology to Svein??????

    Kevin congrats on signing Frank, his late season results were fab. He will be a great addition now that he is healthy again.
     
  10. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    Jasmine,


    You seem to be forgetting you said things were worse now, that we would no longer have what we once had, agreeing with me things were beter in the past. Bauer and Kevin Fields are saying things are better now. Are you now agreeing with them?

    How can you hold two opinions at once without being an idiot.

    "Once upon a time there was the Canadian Tire Cycling series
    Then after 5 years Can Tire decided they did not want to fund the series and moved on. All the teams that rose up during the series disbanded. Top Canadiin riders go to US teams." Jasmineminor.

    Are things better or worse? Do you have a mind to make up?
    PS Do you think Kevin really put me in my place, "Hey Ed,

    Overall I'm not sure I would say cycling is better now either. The same maybe. While our Canadian races need improvement, our teams are better." Kevin fields.

    Sounds like he is sort of agreeing with me as well.

    All we know for sure at this point is that Jasmine looks like an idiot. Imagine how foolish "she" would if we knew "her" name!
     
  11. Jasmineminor

    Jasmineminor New Member

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    Did I say cycling in N. America was worse?

    you keep harping on about how CANADA can return to the (short) glory of what 5 years? with the Can Tire series

    I have been pointing out repeatedly that :

    a) Cycling in N. AMerica has changed
    b) There are more opportunities in N. America
    c) Lliving in the past is not looking at the present situation and to the future
    d) Cycling in N. America is no longer just about ROAD for men
    e) Canada is being SOLD to the US, and that is where the opportunities lie

    should I go on?

    Kevin has spanked you arse. do you like it?
     
  12. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    Jasmine, you do know Bauer is trying to get a pro men's road squad together in Canada, right?

    Exactly the opposite what you just wrote, "Cycling in N. America is no longer just about ROAD for men"!

    You look more and more stupid with each keystroke.

    So, you think Bauer is wating his time? He is starting a team in Canada, the place you said doesn't care about cycling. He wants male riders and he wants them on the road.

    Can you say anything more stupid than you just did?

    As fo Kevin Fields he agreed with me on another point, "Your point about the US team's not focusing on the America's tour is true. "

    Nobody seems to agree with you, Jasmine.
     
  13. kevinfield

    kevinfield New Member

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    Agree completely about UCI rule changes and the blending of Pro and Am. I still struggle to figure out if that was ultimately a good or bad thing.

    B*&^%

    I would like to see better direction from the CCA as well, but I think the sport can grow via the efforts of well run teams, and successful individuals... like RACE will be, Symmetrics is and Evian, Magicuts and Bloor were in the past. Like Serge Arsenault and Jean Lessard have been, and like Denis Levesque is.

    Having great teams or riders encourages organizers to put on races to showcase those guys... Remember alot of those awesome races in Toronto back in the day were in great part due to Bauer and the event organizer's desire to show off Canada's best guy. You might say the same for the Mont Royal race in Mntl in its first years... '88/89 or so.

    I know organizers have asked Symmetrics if they up-ed the level of their races would we come... And my memory might be foggy on it, but I think Lac St. Jean in its early days was built around the participation of team's like Evian, Toshiba, Decorceiling etc?

    Maybe the CCA was as ineffective back then as it is now? I mean did they even have anything to do with the CTC Canada Cup Series or was that all done via Chris Lang Asc? :confused:
     
  14. Jasmineminor

    Jasmineminor New Member

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    The team will be registered in Canada.

    Just like
    - Symmetrics
    - EVA
    - Calyon Litespeed
    - VW Trek

    Just because there are men's teams registering new teams, does not negate the growth in women's racing (races) and MTB teams/races/racing

    The only person who looks stupid is you who says "MTB does not count for shit" . Tell that to the huge numbers who are flocking to XC/DH/Freeride venues /races/events.

    FYI: Rock and roll is still going strong, but rap, reggae, hip hop, jazz, classical, are still going strong too

    What's your point?

    There is a place for all.
     
  15. Jasmineminor

    Jasmineminor New Member

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    BINGO!!

    Kevin you hit it there

    If Cycling in Canada wants te revive it will take somone with the vision and ambition to put all the "ducks" in a row.

    Symmetrics ( the Cunninghams and yourself) have put a lot on the line to create the Symmetrics brand and give the riders the opportunities to be "all they can be'.

    Now it is up to someone to step up and create a new Can Tire series for the top N. American teams to come to and compete in.. to recreate the "glory'|"

    Ed A seems to think it should be easy..

    Ed ... you up to the challenge. You 'claim' to be the best person for the job. you up to the challenge?

    Or are you an opportunist....!
     
  16. kevinfield

    kevinfield New Member

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    I remember talking to the guys at Chris Lang back in the fall '93 while I was organizing the Control Data Team for '94.

    I think they said they basically setup the whole CTC series exclusive of the CCA. Once they had everything in place, organizers, venues, partners, CTV TV rights and broadcasting , they just went to the CCA to rubber stamp it for credibility and administer some aspects of the series... or am I wrong on that?
     
  17. Jasmineminor

    Jasmineminor New Member

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    You are correct. The CCA basically went along for the ride. Lister (a good bureaucrat) rode it well.. for as long as it lasted.

    When it was done., no replacement had been fostered to step up. If it was such a great thing.. should they not have been lining up?
     
  18. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    Jasmine, we are still waiitng for your to clean the egg of your face, coward:


    Jasmine, you do know Bauer is trying to get a pro men's road squad together in Canada, right?

    Exactly the opposite what you just wrote, "Cycling in N. America is no longer just about ROAD for men"!

    You look more and more stupid with each keystroke.

    So, you think Bauer is wating his time? He is starting a team in Canada, the place you said doesn't care about cycling. He wants male riders and he wants them on the road.

    Can you say anything more stupid than you just did?

    As fo Kevin Fields he agreed with me on another point, "Your point about the US team's not focusing on the America's tour is true. "

    Nobody seems to agree with you, Jasmine.

    Bauer, Field, Fraser and most others who know anything about cycling realize that big-time men's road-racing is what has to happen again. Everything else is just kids playing in dirt on bikes.

    Nobody says it is easy but it is certainly do-able to. If you get the Cunninghams and Bauer working on their teams and they both get a third sponsor for a sereis of events to showcase their teams, or the CCA steps up to the plate for a change, then your in business. It won't happen with the likes of Lorraine Lafreniere, Bil Kinash and others in Ottawa who don't have a clue what they are doing. A real sponsor will smell their bullshit from a mile away. Just look at those stupid CanBike Tips on the CCA web site. Do you think a sponsor interested in pros wants to see something like that. It would be like Hockey Canada telling players to tie their skates. Just ridiculous.

    Kevin, I think the CCA had quite a bit to do with Canadian Tire/Canada Cup success. They imposed some direction on the events. Jasmine, there would have been no Caandian Tire Canada Cups if it was not for the CCA, they made that part of the deal. Shows what you know. They brought good people into the mix. Jasmine thinks Lister rode the gravy train. Well, Lister, Tim Farrar, Howard Chang, the riders, me and everybody else involved worked hard, real hard ,to make it happen. It was a coordinated effort. We talked a great deal. We realized the importance of the continuity and branding.

    Maybe Lister would like to weigh in?
     
  19. Fausto Coppied

    Fausto Coppied New Member

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    Looks like the Euro Tour is tougher than the Americas Tour, huh....!

    [​IMG]

    10.01.07 - Road cycling – world championships - Tough day for Canada

    September 30, 2007 – The three Canadian riders in the men’s elite race on Sunday at the world road championships in cycling in Stuttgart, Germany, did not finish. Olympic champion Paolo Bettini of Italy successfully defended his title with Alexandr Kolobnev of Russia second and Stefan Schumacher of Germany third.

    Dominique Rollin of Boucherville, Que., Svein Tuft of Langley, B.C., and Cameron Evans of Delta, B.C., withdrew in the 12th, 11th and 10th laps respectively. There were 14 laps in total.

    ‘’The 270 kilometre course was tough and to be honest this was a completely different level of competition,’’ said Canadian team manager Kris Westwood. ‘’It’s as if the guys went from junior hockey to the NHL. It was the first elite race for all three at the world championships. We knew they wouldn’t be in contention for a medal and the question was how long they could last against such a powerful field. Today nobody had a memorable day.’’
     
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