Stick to the rules alltogether!

[Bro Deal]

Oh, come on, Bro. Wolfix is right. You're now using a standard that would ban every rider. The problem is, as cyclingheroes has pointed out many times, is that they're not using ANY standards. No one has a clue now who is going to be allowed to start which races.

Sounds like you are in the mood for a witch hunt.

There are a lot of witches...

I see Alpuerto and other LS riders as a different category than other riders who have been busted. I have no doubt at all that Disco is running a doping program, but I am not calling for their riders to be banned. There is no question whatsoever that Saiz was running a teamwide, comprehensive doping program. He was caught red handed. I think it is a farce to allow any of the LS riders to get away with their the see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil account of their time on the team.

The riders are now complaining about how it is always them who bears the brunt of doping positives and the team staff and other involved get a free pass, but they have no one to blame but themselves. All they have to do is point out who helped them dope.

The current situation where riders test positive and pretend that no one else was involved or refuse to name who helped them is a joke. I think that when someone tests positive they should be forced to describe where and from who they got the doping products, and if they are not willing to do that then they should be banned for life.

 

[Bro Deal]

Exactly. Cycling cannot continue as we knew it without a srong body of international rules that are consistent. And race organizers are not the ones we need to rely on to do this. A few more years of this and cycling as we know it will not continue.

I put a lot more trust in the organizers than I do the UCI.

It looks like the sport is headed for a major crisis next season. Either the UCI changes or it will get marginalized. McQuaid needs to go and someone who is willing to truly negotiate with the GTs needs to take his place.

 

[fscyclist]

The current situation where riders test positive and pretend that no one else was involved or refuse to name who helped them is a joke. I think that when someone tests positive they should be forced to describe where and from who they got the doping products, and if they are not willing to do that then they should be banned for life.

I think the other thing at least as annoying are all the other hypocritical riders who act stunned and disappointed when another guy pops positive. The riders who spoke out against Vino are no different than he; they just haven't been caught. If there's a reason to be mad at Vino it's for being stupid, not because he doped, which is expected.

 

[jhuskey]

I think the other thing at least as annoying are all the other hypocritical riders who act stunned and disappointed when another guy pops positive. The riders who spoke out against Vino are no different than he; they just haven't been caught. If there's a reason to be mad at Vino it's for being stupid, not because he doped, which is expected.

Expected he doped or expected he acted stupid?

 

[thecyclist]

Now cycling has enough problems at the moment (UCI-ASO conflict), they don't need race organizers who are policeofficer, prosecuter and judge in one person.

It does as long as the UCI aren't doing their job. I'm sure no innocent riders are being banned from the race.

 

[fscyclist]

Expected he doped or expected he acted stupid?

expected he doped. I don't know if he's stupid or if something went wrong...a bribe that went bad or bad gouge about which tests are being run. To be in Vino's shoes and get caught is inexcusable.

 

[limerickman]

I put a lot more trust in the organizers than I do the UCI.

It looks like the sport is headed for a major crisis next season. Either the UCI changes or it will get marginalized. McQuaid needs to go and someone who is willing to truly negotiate with the GTs needs to take his place.

For sure McQuaid is no different to Verbruggen.
I have it on camcorder : McQuaid telling the Irish Federation meeting that there is no doping in our sport.
He told us this two years ago.

It was part of a meeting that we were having when he was being nominated for the UCI Presidency (national fedration has to nominate a candidate for UCI roles)
Some of us opposed him citing that the sport was in crisis and that he was not the person best placed to head up the fight against doping.
He won the nomination (at national level) and was then elected by his UCI (Verbruggen) cronies.

I'm sure that if McQuaid was not elected : some other UCI lackey would be elected.

I go with Dr House on this : a full foresnsic audit of the bank account of the UCI President (Verbruggen) is the starting point.
I can tell you that if this took place : and transactions where uncovered, that would be the start of a real cleanup policy.

 

[tcklyde]

The attitude about doping is exactly the same as it was in the mid 90's. But you wouldn't know that, because I doubt seriously that you followed the sport. Nothing has changed except that the sporting bodies have been shown to be incompentent and enablers of doping by the civil authorities.
No one has anything on Contador. If Contador is to be punished because he was on a team that had dopers, then there is not a team nor rider that should start.
What we are starting to see is the movement of nationalism of races and riders.

Why you persist in this fantasy that you are the only one who followed the sport ten (or 20 or more) years ago is beyond me. Of course that attitude was different in '96 -- that was pre-festina, before a test for EPO, and Riis's big year at the Tour. Festina may have proved to be scandal without following changes, but things are without question different now. Winners of all three major Tours have either returned positives or confessed. Testing is aggressive (or at least not ignored). Sponsors are panicking and pulling out. The TdF was a joke and German TV dropped coverage. The sport is in crisis and you proclaim no one has anything on Contador? How tight do you have to shut your eyes to avoid the glare of his shady responses and associations? Is there hard evidence? Maybe yes maybe no, but this ridiculous attitude that we need to video of a rider sticking EPO into his ass to say what everyone knows is fatuous. Look, I don't have proof that Hulk Hogan juiced himself into a bald, distorted freak show, but I'll put money on it any day.

The national federations and governing bodies may be doing a bit more than in the past, but it's still a joke. If the race organizers want to take the lead, let 'em. At least someone cares. Di Luca is facing discipline -- possibly in the next month. And they got audio tapes, for goodness sakes. Contador's position is nearly as stupid as Basso's disgraceful "admission." These riders are deeply implicated in doping.

The main difference between Di Luca and Contador and Zabel is that Zabel owned up to what he had done while Di Luca and Contador persist in deception and lying. The letter of the rules may fall on Di Luca's and Contador's side, but both have abused their spirit. I have no pity for them.

 

[Holocaust]

tcklyde: Wolf is a flaming hypocrite and discredits himself with almost every post he types into his keyboard.
1) Wolfix accepts doping as an integral part of our cycling sport
2) Wolfix admitted to using stimulants w.o guilt
3) Wolfix worships at the alter of Lance Armstrong---a confirmed drug cheat on a confirmed doped USPO team.
4) Wolfix believes that a confirmed drug cheat is perfect to lead a tax-exempt foundation that portends to offer grants to find Cancer cures whilst partnering with Nike (Yellow Bracelets), market $300 sneakers, and American Century mutual funds kick-backs. He is blind to the paradox, lies = money.

If I suggested that Charles Manson lead the American Red Cross, who would agree with me???

How about Bjarne Riis for the new chief of WADA????

Wolf is lost in the forest and it is forest fire season.

 

[wolfix]

Why you persist in this fantasy that you are the only one who followed the sport ten (or 20 or more) years ago is beyond me.

What is beyond you is your ability to read. My post was directed to someone I doubt was around the sport during the time he was talking about. He stated that doping was looked at differently then then it is today.

Of course that attitude was different in '96 -- that was pre-festina, before a test for EPO, and Riis's big year at the Tour. Festina may have proved to be scandal without following changes, but things are without question different now.

Without question????? Wait and see when this blows over. Nothing will change. I do not see the UCI nor the ASO dealing with doping in a way that will deter people in th efuture. What I do see is the ASO using the riders to damage the UCI and vice versa. I am willing to bet that none on the riders would have tested positive if the UCI and ASO were on the same page.

Sponsors are panicking and pulling out.

But not because of the doping, but because of the inconsistency of the race directors and the UCI.

The TdF was a joke and German TV dropped coverage.

Joke????? Everyone on this forum claim the numbers were an all time high. So what is it? A "Joke" or a "Success?"

The sport is in crisis and you proclaim no one has anything on Contador?

They have his name on a list. That's it. The organizations that matter have cleared him along with the UCI and the ASO. So..... You know something that they don't?

How tight do you have to shut your eyes to avoid the glare of his shady responses and associations?

Anyone involved in cycling have associations that would be deemed to be shady to you. So, what are you going to do, eliminate the shady ones....... Now, you seem to think you are an intelligent individual and have this figured out. Who do you think should ride?
No one from T-M, nor Quick-Step. We have to eliminate Astana, CSC, and Rabobank. I could go on and on........
Discovery....... I would say we should eliminate them because they are the dirtiest team in cycling even though there is no proof of that. Maybe you can explain to me with facts why they are so dirty?

Is there hard evidence? Maybe yes maybe no, but this ridiculous attitude that we need to video of a rider sticking EPO into his ass to say what everyone knows is fatuous.

You cannot eliminate riders who are accused of things that are not proved.

Look, I don't have proof that Hulk Hogan juiced himself into a bald, distorted freak show, but I'll put money on it any day.

This is about Contador, not Hulk Hogan.

The national federations and governing bodies may be doing a bit more than in the past, but it's still a joke. If the race organizers want to take the lead, let 'em. At least someone cares.

Do you honestly believe that last sentence? They care? They care about controlling the races so they can control the money. This is not about dope and never has been. It's all about control of the peloton.

Contador's position is nearly as stupid as Basso's disgraceful "admission."

Explain to me what his position is. Now, the ASO and the UCI think he is clean....... If there were a different attitude today then in 1995 on, and with the aggressive testing you claim they are doing, explain to me why Contador is dirty. At this point he has not returned anything positive., in spite of everything you claim is happening. You need to get over your fantasy that you have great knowledge of the situation that even the UCO and ASO do not have. I want to hear how you know so much.

The main difference between Di Luca and Contador and Zabel is that Zabel owned up to what he had done while Di Luca and Contador persist in deception and lying.

Wrong , we know for sure Zabel doped. [By the way, he didn't own up to it, he was forced into it.] Contador has not been connected to dope in any way except for a name for which he was found to be innocent of.

I have no pity for them

I bet they are losing sleep over that.

 

[cyclingheroes]

I put a lot more trust in the organizers than I do the UCI.

Why? Do you really believe they did not know what was going on?

 

[nns1400]

There are a lot of witches...

I see Alpuerto and other LS riders as a different category than other riders who have been busted. I have no doubt at all that Disco is running a doping program, but I am not calling for their riders to be banned. There is no question whatsoever that Saiz was running a teamwide, comprehensive doping program. He was caught red handed. I think it is a farce to allow any of the LS riders to get away with their the see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil account of their time on the team.

The riders are now complaining about how it is always them who bears the brunt of doping positives and the team staff and other involved get a free pass, but they have no one to blame but themselves. All they have to do is point out who helped them dope.

The current situation where riders test positive and pretend that no one else was involved or refuse to name who helped them is a joke. I think that when someone tests positive they should be forced to describe where and from who they got the doping products, and if they are not willing to do that then they should be banned for life.

Blacklist people who won't name names.....too bad Senator McCarthy isn't here to help you out. Since you think Contador, who did NOT test positive, should name names or be banned.

Maybe you would like it if they put him in Gitmo until he talks.

 

[Bro Deal]

Blacklist people who won't name names.....too bad Senator McCarthy isn't here to help you out. Since you think Contador, who did NOT test positive, should name names or be banned.

Maybe you would like it if they put him in Gitmo until he talks.

Contador is not some random person drawn off the street. He was a member of Osama Bin Laden's (Saiz's) personal staff and carried out missions (races) for him. Letting him walk away scott free is a farce.

Do you honestly think Contador not only did not dope but did not know everyone else on the LS team was doping?

 

[Bro Deal]

Why? Do you really believe they did not know what was going on?

When?

I don't care what they did in 1995. Now they have determined that it is in their best interest to fight doping and they are doing so. The UCI still wants to sweep everything under the rug.

 

[wolfix]

When?

I don't care what they did in 1995. Now they have determined that it is in their best interest to fight doping and they are doing so. The UCI still wants to sweep everything under the rug.

If they are fighting doping as you say, then why did they say they think Contador is clean? If it's so obvious as you rant it is, why can't they see it?

Everyone involved is far more concerned with the publicity of the sport then actually cleaning it up.
The cycling bodies have nothing but a dog and pony show going on.

 

[Serafino]

Why? Do you really believe they did not know what was going on?

+1! CyclingHeroes you are a voice of reason.

Everyone knew what was/is going on and was tacitly supporting the status quo. Now, its only about marketing. Ridiculous that the faux confessors at T-Mobile (who did so only after being exposed) get credit and invites while others who are under "suspicion" are threatened with denial of entry by the race organizers.

So you can fail a dope test (or admit to doping when the gun is pointed at your head) and get a race invite after paying your penalty (David Millar et al) or no penalty at all (Zabel). But if you are "suspected" of an offence (as hazy as it may be) and have never failed a test, you are not wanted.

The riders should organize and sue.

 

[limerickman]

The riders should organize and sue.

That would require a rider, and/or ex-rider, having to enter a witnessbox.
We know from past experience that they're not willing to enter the witnessbox.

 

[Serafino]

That would require a rider, and/or ex-rider, having to enter a witnessbox.
We know from past experience that they're not willing to enter the witnessbox.

Well, not if the team management, sponsors, etc., are exposed as being complicit in the doping era. Who exactly "defrauded" T-Mobile (only using them as an example) when it is clear doping was a team wide program.

Remember the calls for the public to sue Jan (and dopers in general) for sporting fraud. I think the teams/organizers/etc., will all want to avoid exposure and settle.

The riders are pawns at the moment. Too much finger wagging by the UCI/ASO/Organizers, etc., when they are all part of the problem.

 

[jhuskey]

Would you guys type more quietly. I had a lot of Champagne last night.

Coincidental how anyone that ****** off T-Mobile gets ****** on, is it not?

 

[limerickman]

Well, not if the team management, sponsors, etc., are exposed as being complicit in the doping era. Who exactly "defrauded" T-Mobile (only using them as an example) when it is clear doping was a team wide program.

Remember the calls for the public to sue Jan (and dopers in general) for sporting fraud. I think the teams/organizers/etc., will all want to avoid exposure and settle.

The riders are pawns at the moment. Too much finger wagging by the UCI/ASO/Organizers, etc., when they are all part of the problem.

I'm not arguing with you - and I agree that the teams/organisers are probably more culpable than the riders in all of this.

Unfortunately if the riders intend to sue - they would have to get in to the witness box and state that they doped : and we know that there is a marked reluctance to do this.

Set aside the witness box for a moment - look at when riders did state that there was doping going on - they were threatened and ostracised by some of their fellow riders.

I'm off now to watch an ethical game of rugby France V England last night in Marsaeille (highlights are on BBC2 now!).