Stick to the rules alltogether!

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by cyclingheroes, Aug 17, 2007.

  1. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    Lim one further point....... before OP Jesus Mazzano came out and told the world about Fuentes.... what was the UCI's reaction ? they threatened to sue him for bringing the sport into disrepute ! then OP happened...... like you say the riders aint going to come out and tell the world with that sort of threat hanging over them..... and now Vino is telling us that its impossible for a rider to tell of there whereabouts 3 months in advance..... why do they tell us this now ? why not band together with the riders union and get this stuff out there now.... why ? because some still dope and some don't and they just can't work together....
     


  2. nns1400

    nns1400 New Member

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    Of course I don't think that. We're talking about what to do about it. Even if you "know" someone's guilty, that isn't enough to force their testimony about other people without evidence.

    I just think that you're being morally inconsistent. I will assume from your history here that you're not a big fan of the Patriot Act, Gitmo, etc. (Maybe that's incorrect.) Liberals usually grandstand about civil rights for suspected criminals and due process and so on, but now it's okay to pressure riders to name names based on association and suspicion. That's a witch hunt.

    OTOH, I think it's reasonable to push riders with positive tests, or with other evidence against them as in the case of OP, to come clean about the whole sordid system, but they already deny the tests were really positive; they lie about anyone else being involved anyway; the people named by a rider will deny their involvement.

    You still don't have any proof except one person's word against another, leading to opportunities to destroy your perceived enemies by calling them dopers, thus you have a witch hunt.
     
  3. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    The best thing is... Di Luca started anyway at the Cyclassics today. The race organizers are complaining now that nobody did anything against it and they had no judical possibility to prevent him from starting....
     
  4. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    100% correct in my opinion : therein lies the faultline that can never be reconciled in my opinion.
     
  5. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    In the U.S. we have the RICO statutues for just such an occasion. They allow people to be convicted of being a member of a criminal enterprise. I don't feel any sympathy for Contador or other members of the LS team, which had a teamwide conspiracy to break the rules.
     
  6. Serafino

    Serafino New Member

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    You feel no sympathy for T-Mobile either then, which had a team wide conspiracy to break the rules as well.

    Get over yourself. Comparing doping cyclists to RICO criminals. Who are they harming other than themselves? The sporting public? Please, fixed (bought and sold) races are a much bigger problem IMO. As is point shaving, etc., in many other sports. Especially, if gambling conspiracies are involved.

    In reality, x no. of doped cyclists racing each other still results in a undetermined sporting outcome. Sure doping is wrong, primarily from a health perspective, but to say we should invoke RICO indicates that your priorities are quite screwed up.
     
  7. No_Positives

    No_Positives New Member

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    OK Bro Deal put down the crack pipe and listen up. School is in session.

    Why do you have no doubt? Is it because of all the positives from Hincapie? From Levi? From Lance? From Contador? From Popo? From Tom D.? Or are you just assuming that since all other teams dope then Disco must be as well. Don't you know that stereotyping can get you in trouble in all walks of life. You are probably from the same group who says that just because all terrorists look exactly alike we can't treat people who look like that any different than anyone else. Well maybe you're right. So therefore it must be assumed that a 65-year old couple doing a half-metric century on a tandem is just as likely to be using EPO as a Pro Tour rider.

    Umm, this is called ratting people out and not really a good thing to do. It's not a good idea to "Jorg Jackshe" someone. If you dope and don't maintain your htc at a reasonable level and get caught then you have to take the heat.

    See above. Plus in America we have this thing called the 5th Amendment where we don't have to say nothin' to no one. And it takes more courage to do this than to implicate others. Just ask Mike Vick's buddies. They took the easy way out.
     
  8. JRMDC

    JRMDC New Member

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    Fascinating. Someone believes that following omerta, that sticking to one's buddies regardless of the legal or moral implications, is always the best decision.

    Don't you know that ratting out can lead to justice? That often the most serious criminal will never implicate himself and only gets caught - a GOOD THING!!! - when one of his buddies rats him out? That a code not to rat out is a childish/mafiaish way to behave?

    Cycling needs more riders to speak the truth, not less.
     
  9. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    Why do you have no doubt? Is it because of all the positives from Hincapie? From Levi? From Lance? From Contador? From Popo? From Tom D.? Or are you just assuming that since all other teams dope then Disco must be as well. Don't you know that stereotyping can get you in trouble in all walks of
    See above. Plus in America we have this thing called the 5th Amendment where we don't have to say nothin' to no one. And it takes more courage to do this than to implicate others. Just ask Mike Vick's buddies. They took the easy way out.[/QUOTE]


    Actually "The 5th" is used as a means of non-self incrimidation(''nemo tenetur seipsum accusare) basically saying that one need not disclose information that would be damaging to self rather than a means of withold evidence or testimony damaging to another individual.
    The 5th amendment encompasses much more that the self incrimidation aspect such as due process but that is another story.
    Just a note,carry on.
     
  10. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    jhuskey again. I will explain it one more time, this forum is about riders bashing. Not about the rule of law and democratic standards. Borat will be the new UCI president.
     
  11. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    You know that I am just a dumb hillbilly and a slow learner even measured by those standards.
    Please be patient with me and I will try to follow along as best I can.
     
  12. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    It won't be easy to be patient for a guy on wooden shoes but I will give it a try

    By the way: Do you know where Rasmussen was on Thursday ? I heard he should have been in California but now somebody told me he actually was in Florida. The terminator wants to ban him from his fitness studio now.:D
     
  13. tcklyde

    tcklyde New Member

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    Haha! OMG! Listen, are you 15? What movie did you crib this line from?

    Dr. Ferrari. Text messages. Throwing out medical waste at the 99 Tour. Frankie Andreau confession. The entire TdF team leading the peloton up HC climbs. Implications of former employees. This is professional cycling. Look, no one here claims the door has been slammed shut, but almost anyone who understands the state the sport is in and the shady Disco behavior realizes that something isn't quite right.

    "Ratting people out"? What is this? The mob? Prison? 5th grade? Some people would like to see a clean, healthy, and safe sport. I'd take that over idiotic play ground rules about "ratting" on your friends any day.

    Umm, the 5th Amendment privilege prevents compelled testimony in legal proceedings and has nothing to do with sanctions in sport. But I got to give you points for both praising the American legal system and condemning it in a single paragraph. Why yes, the 5th Amendment is nice, but not so much with plea bargaining? Do you even know what side your on?
     
  14. No_Positives

    No_Positives New Member

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    crib this line

    :MODERATED
     
  15. thoughtforfood

    thoughtforfood New Member

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    No Positives,

    You miss the point........of logical thought and scientific understanding. You also should stay in the shallow end of the legal thought pool.

    The physiological changes generated by using doping products are profound, and would prohibit a rider who has not used multiple doping practices from competing. You can believe that Lance was the only one of those ahead of the likes of Ulrich, Vino, Landis, Pantani (well, the list of positives is quite populated so you get the point....ok, probably not) who was not using doping products, but you would be at best misguided. It just cannot happen, sorry, there no consolation prize for you.

    I will give you this, dickcheese.....that is pretty good.

     
  16. No_Positives

    No_Positives New Member

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    Just when I think it can't get any worse along comes another American who hasn't a clue. I feel like a prisoner in my own country surrounded by these morons. I thought it was only the Euros who believed in guilty until proven innocent.

    Boy, that is quite a compelling argument. Wow!! Overwhelming. This is the equivalent of saying "Mommy, Mommy!! There is a monster downstairs. Really, really, really." If it's so obvious to everyone that it's not possible then why does Lance still have all his Yellow jerseys? Stick to facts, not feelings. NO POSITIVES!!!!
     
  17. thoughtforfood

    thoughtforfood New Member

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    Hey, stop smelling your fingers for a second and listen up, this is not a court of law you felching little ingrate. (now picture a scene where there is flute music playing as you are spoken to in a very condescending, yet soothing tone) This is a forum about cycling, and on this forum we discuss our opinions regarding topics related to cycling. I realize that the concept of innocent until proven guilty might permeate your conscious thought from dusk until dawn, but me, I make judgments. Many times I use the magic of logic to discern the truth of a situation because I am not one who believes that humans contain an enormous capacity for truth. I therefore must use this logic to determine a myriad of conclusions. I don't let my children consort with many people because I judge them to be too _________. I don't play 3 card monty games because I believe they are rigged, just a hunch though I have never caught them cheating. I could go on and on, but it is obvious that you have drunk of the Kool-Aid of Lance and are therefore impervious to logical thought.

     
  18. No_Positives

    No_Positives New Member

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    No shit. My opinion is to look at the facts. Your opinion is write posts saying coulda, woulda, shoulda, oughta, most likely, no doubt, without question, had to of, oxygen debt would not allow it, rest of peloton did it, physiological factors would prevent such an occurrence in such an instance, among other opinions. Just show me the positives and I’ll be quiet. Or if you prefer you can give more brilliant insight into why the tests should have been positive but were not.
     
  19. Frigo's Luggage

    Frigo's Luggage New Member

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  20. Frigo's Luggage

    Frigo's Luggage New Member

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    Thank you.
     
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