Stiletto??????

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Marci Taylor, Jun 16, 2003.

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  1. Marci Taylor

    Marci Taylor Guest

    I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
    thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
    without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me. I
    really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my issue
    or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more traditional
    steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on order and it
    weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
     
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  2. PaPa

    PaPa New Member

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    Usually, remote steering allows elimination of "tiller effect" and relaxed head tube angles (from say, 59 degrees to the more traditional DF of 70 degrees or more). This usually improves low speed handling - akin to a SWB. I think Calfree is advertizing 24 lbs.

    And yes, there is another LWB on a carbon/titanium diet. And yes, it has TE/Rans non-remote type steering. Sadly, it's owner has no production plans.
     
  3. Bentnut

    Bentnut Guest

    I am guessing you could probably order one with a tradition steering setup. I'd guess it'd knock a
    pound off the weight as well. The current prototype is 24 lbs ready to ride (no fairing). Once they
    get the proper molds for the lugs, that'll knock another pound or so off. Hmm, are you a lighter
    girl? Freddy was saying they could make a special light-weight version for smaller folks. Could
    maybe get one down to near 20 lbs!!!

    "Marci Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
    > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
    > without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me.
    > I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my
    > issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
    > traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
    > order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
     
  4. Harv

    Harv Guest

    Marci, you should take a mini vacation and visit Northbrook on July 19. You would see some seriously
    fast women on low chariots. My crystal ball has Marci cruising missle fast on her home turf on a
    Velokraft, or maybe a custom titanium Barcroft Oregon. <tim taylor grunt>. Carbon fibre tail fairing
    <another grunt> cruising along flirting with the 30's. <homey
    drooling>30...30...
    "Marci Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
    > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
    > without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me.
    > I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my
    > issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
    > traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
    > order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
     
  5. [email protected] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
    > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
    > without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me.
    > I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my
    > issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
    > traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
    > order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci

    Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
    (and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
    heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
    wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
    the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
    remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the Easy
    Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design something everybody
    would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes climbs of below 6 mph,
    the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that. So back to the
    steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide the steering for
    the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you just have no idea it's
    a remote steered bike...

    The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
    Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).

    Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
    incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
    improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
    treatment...no low racer is safe.

    I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more info
    you can at [email protected]
     
  6. Please! What the heck is "remote steering" ?

    --
    Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]gle.com>...
    > > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
    > > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
    > > without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs
    > > me. I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this
    > > just my issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
    > > traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
    > > order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
    >
    > Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
    > (and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
    > heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
    > wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
    > the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
    > remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the
    > Easy Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design something
    > everybody would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes climbs of
    > below 6 mph, the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that. So back to
    > the steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide the steering
    > for the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you just have no idea
    > it's a remote steered bike...
    >
    > The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
    > Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).
    >
    > Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
    > incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
    > improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
    > treatment...no low racer is safe.
    >
    > I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more
    > info you can at [email protected]
     
  7. Thanks! Looks very complicated, much like auto steering, tie rods etc. I assume it has to be USS?

    Must be me but I cannot figure out why so much trouble just to "improve" on some perceived GRR
    shortcomings? My GRR and Ti Rush seem to steer just fine. I guess I don't appreciate the value of
    all the tweaking suggested by the more adventurous mechanically inclined types on this NG. ;-))

    --
    Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Bill Hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> wrote in news:kuGHa.9044
    > [email protected]:
    >
    > > Please! What the heck is "remote steering" ?
    > >
    >
    > The handlebars are connected to the front fork through a mechanical
    linkage
    > rather than directly.
    >
    > http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/usbike7.jpg shows the linkage joining the front fork to the
    > handlebars under the seat.
    >
    > (Link lifted from http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/bike2.htm)
    >
    >
    > -Bill Hamilton
     
  8. On 17 Jun 2003 08:18:19 -0700, [email protected] ([email protected]) wrote:

    >Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
    >(and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
    >heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
    >wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
    >the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
    >remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the Easy
    >Racer bikes.

    Thanks for the explanations, it's always nice to hear from the designer himself.

    I still don't understand why commercial remote steer bikes use conventional head angles. The few
    books that discussed stability vs. head angle (Mike Burrows' book and references within, and I think
    one of David Wilson's books) seemed to suggest that a vertical head angle works best, if there are
    no other constraints (e.g. handlebar position). I can't think of any other constraints on a LWB
    remote steer bike. Maybe you or someone here can explain?

    By the way, nobody seems to have posted the URL for the photos:
    http://www.cyberonic.net/~gdevault/stiletto.htm (Though I understand it's an early prototype?)
     
  9. "Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Thanks! Looks very complicated, much like auto steering, tie rods etc. I assume it has to be USS?
    >
    > Must be me but I cannot figure out why so much trouble just to "improve" on some perceived GRR
    > shortcomings? My GRR and Ti Rush seem to steer just fine. I guess I don't appreciate the value of
    > all the tweaking suggested by the more adventurous mechanically inclined types on this NG. ;-))
    >

    Doesn't have to be USS, and you don't have to use remote steering on USS bikes.

    ASS lowracer with remote steering http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/stockinger/remotesteer.jpg
    from http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/stockinger/alley_cat.htm

    The Vision uses direct USS http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/community/ozhpv/qldhpv/vision3.jpg

    Remote steering isn't complicated, it's just not common.

    -Bill Hamilton
     
  10. Marci Taylor

    Marci Taylor Guest

    frede[email protected] ([email protected]) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
    > > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
    > > without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs
    > > me. I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this
    > > just my issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
    > > traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
    > > order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
    >
    > Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
    > (and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
    > heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
    > wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
    > the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
    > remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the
    > Easy Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design something
    > everybody would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes climbs of
    > below 6 mph, the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that. So back to
    > the steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide the steering
    > for the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you just have no idea
    > it's a remote steered bike...
    >
    > The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
    > Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).
    >
    > Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
    > incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
    > improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
    > treatment...no low racer is safe.
    >
    > I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more
    > info you can at [email protected]

    I guess I should have said, "I don't like the looks of the remote steering." I have never ridden a
    bike with this sort of steering so I guess I should reserve judgment. I am very interested in this
    bike....and I think it would be cool to order one with all the light weight options. I would love
    to get one in the 21 lb. range. Is that possible? I am 5'6" tall and weigh about 148 lbs. My
    X-seam is about
    39.5. What is the BB to seat difference in inches? I can't locate the picture of the bike. Is the
    BB a bit higher than on a GRR but lower than a v2???? I might be one of your customers. Marci
     
  11. Ken Kobayashi wrote:

    > I still don't understand why commercial remote steer bikes use conventional head angles.

    Nor me. FWIW, Dave Richards' Kestrel - a front-drive low racer with remote ASS - has a vertical head
    tube and reverse rake forks, but since he only sold one example, it barely qualifies as
    "commercial". The Streetglider had a similar arrangement, and by all accounts it handled
    beautifully, but few were sold. I imagine it may be becuase such a bike looks "pre-crashed" to the
    untutored eye.

    Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
  12. Bandjhughes

    Bandjhughes Guest

    [email protected] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] ([email protected]) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > [email protected] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
    > > > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight
    > > > recuction without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto
    > > > that bugs me. I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike.
    > > > Is this just my issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered
    > > > with the more traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have
    > > > the V2 formula on order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
    > >
    > > Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
    > > (and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for
    > > the heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A,
    > > front wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The
    > > geometry on the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not
    > > going to like remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style
    > > bars on the Easy Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design
    > > something everybody would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes
    > > climbs of below 6 mph, the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that.
    > > So back to the steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide
    > > the steering for the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you
    > > just have no idea it's a remote steered bike...
    > >
    > > The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
    > > Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).
    > >
    > > Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
    > > incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
    > > improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
    > > treatment...no low racer is safe.
    > >
    > > I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more
    > > info you can at [email protected]
    >
    > I guess I should have said, "I don't like the looks of the remote steering." I have never ridden a
    > bike with this sort of steering so I guess I should reserve judgment. I am very interested in this
    > bike....and I think it would be cool to order one with all the light weight options. I would love
    > to get one in the 21 lb. range. Is that possible? I am 5'6" tall and weigh about 148 lbs. My
    > X-seam is about
    > 39.5. What is the BB to seat difference in inches? I can't locate the picture of the bike. Is the
    > BB a bit higher than on a GRR but lower than a v2???? I might be one of your customers.
    > Marci

    Marci:

    Does this mean your brand new V2 Formula is now for sale (at a used price of course)? Well I'm
    green with envy. I wish I had your bike budget. But unfortunately my wife would not find any humor
    in me buying another bike anytime soon.

    Brian 02 Tailwind/02 V-Rex
     
  13. [email protected] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] ([email protected]) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > [email protected] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message

    >
    > I guess I should have said, "I don't like the looks of the remote steering." I have never ridden a
    > bike with this sort of steering so I guess I should reserve judgment. I am very interested in this
    > bike....and I think it would be cool to order one with all the light weight options. I would love
    > to get one in the 21 lb. range. Is that possible? I am 5'6" tall and weigh about 148 lbs. My
    > X-seam is about
    > 39.5. What is the BB to seat difference in inches? I can't locate the picture of the bike. Is the
    > BB a bit higher than on a GRR but lower than a v2???? I might be one of your customers.
    > Marci
    Marci, the seat is approximatly 8" above the seat and the BB is about 1" higher than a Gold Rush.
    In your size getting a 21 lbs bike shouldn't be to hard as soon as I have a lighter seat, but right
    now production weight is probably about 23 lbs depending on components. While I'm thinking about it
    i should add that remote steering has been around for a very long time, done right it's no problem,
    it's not complicated. We also have the ability to set the steering colume for every individual
    rider for a better fit.

    some people may think that the gold rush geometry is fine enough and there is no need for
    improvement. If a person lives in areas of the country where roads are flat and straight, yea they
    may not appreciate the improved handling of the Stiletto. However, if you are the type of rider who
    rides arounds hills or you push your bike to the limits, you will like this bike alot.

    Some other features the Stiletto will have is two fork options. Both carbon fiber, both cf steer
    tubes. One is an aero fork with 80mmwide fork spacing. combined with the new front hubs we will be
    using this makes the front wheel extra light a aero fast. The other fork is 100mm spacing for those
    of you who want a traditional spacing.The Stiletto also has a passive suspension that works so well
    you will all appreciate that! In fact this bike dosen't do anything bad,in fact I pound the heck out
    of this bike in the heart of the Santa Cruz mountains on a daily basis.

    Dare I say it? Sure why not? This is probably the best all around performing R-bike there is...it
    has mult-personalities, it will go slow or incredibly fast, your choice.

    One other note... I have a new web page that will have lots of information on it soon. right now
    it just has some photos, but check in from time to time for informative subjects.
    www.ffmcycling.com Freddy
     
  14. On 18 Jun 2003 10:28:44 -0700, [email protected] (Warren Berger) wrote:

    >As Dave said, you would have to explain why your fork is "wrong". Selling a recumbent already
    >requires hours of explaining. Bikes have been built this way, but inertia is hard to overcome. ....
    >http://www.karbonkinetics.com/MGT_copy_big.jpg

    Now THAT looks like an awesome bike. Too bad it never went into production (or so I assume).

    By the way there is one popular "bike" with what appears to be a negative rake: the Xootr scooter

    http://www.xootr.com/

    Though they did find it necessary to explain it in their FAQ. And it isn't really negative rake, it
    just looks like it because the fork is attached to the front of the "head tube".

    Ken Kobayashi [email protected] http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/
     
  15. Cbb

    Cbb Guest

    Last year I was in a LBS that sold BikeEs. They had a BikeE E2 on the floor that I was told was
    ordered special by a customer and was not available for a test ride. However I noticed they had put
    the fork on backwards. This despite the fact that the disk brake was on the wrong side. I guess the
    mechanic thought that the fork should be raked forward not back. Craig

    Ken Kobayashi <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 18 Jun 2003 10:28:44 -0700, [email protected] (Warren Berger) wrote:
    >
    > >As Dave said, you would have to explain why your fork is "wrong". Selling a recumbent already
    > >requires hours of explaining. Bikes have been built this way, but inertia is hard to overcome.
    > >.... http://www.karbonkinetics.com/MGT_copy_big.jpg
    >
    > Now THAT looks like an awesome bike. Too bad it never went into production (or so I assume).
    >
    > By the way there is one popular "bike" with what appears to be a negative rake: the Xootr scooter
    >
    > http://www.xootr.com/
    >
    > Though they did find it necessary to explain it in their FAQ. And it isn't really negative rake,
    > it just looks like it because the fork is attached to the front of the "head tube".
    >

    > Ken Kobayashi [email protected] http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/
     
  16. On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:20:30 +0100, "Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >sold one example, it barely qualifies as "commercial". The Streetglider had a similar arrangement,
    >and by all accounts it handled beautifully, but few were sold. I imagine it may be becuase such a
    >bike looks "pre-crashed" to the untutored eye.
    >
    >Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/

    In 1996 I was in London on vacation and I made the trip down to Forrest Row to Future Cycles to test
    ride a Streetglider. I was Impressed by the handling and I would have purchased a frame set if they
    would have had one in stock. It was the old story.. liability problems kept them from exporting to
    the US. It was a really neat machine and I really didn't see "pre-crashed" at all. Too bad they
    don't make it any more.

    Walt Smith Harrison, OH
     
  17. Edward Wong

    Edward Wong Guest

    > Marci:
    >
    > Does this mean your brand new V2 Formula is now for sale (at a used price of course)? Well I'm
    > green with envy. I wish I had your bike budget. But unfortunately my wife would not find any
    > humor in me buying another bike anytime soon.
    >
    > Brian 02 Tailwind/02 V-Rex

    And that's a new V2 Formula that she has probably not taken delivery of yet!;-)

    Edward Wong Orlando, FL (With a meager "recumbent budget" but having as much fun as
    everyone else:))
     
  18. Craig,

    > They had a BikeE E2 on the floor...they had put the fork on backwards.

    This is a truly scary story. With the fork turned around the "right" way, the E2 would have had
    negative trail, and would be dangerous to ride. It is amazing that a shop could be this clueless.

    Warren
     
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