*Still* truing my first wheel....

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Call Me Bob, Jan 29, 2003.

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  1. Call Me Bob

    Call Me Bob Guest

    So, third time under the surgeons knife in three days for my poor rear wheel. Of course it's very
    obvious I'm not qualified to surgeon standard yet. Probably wouldn't be allowed to take charge of
    the fish fingers in the hospital canteen in fact.

    Took bike out for another hour today and sure enough rear wheel all unwound. I'm embarrassed, but
    admitting it will be good for me:

    "Hello, my name is Bob and I'm a cack-handed halfwit"

    Anyway, I've had another crack at the job. Having decided that this must be down to insufficient
    tension and ineffective stress relieving I've been much bolder than previously.

    As I worked I gradually increased tension around the wheel until most spokes on the drive side were
    about as tight as I could turn them without damaging the nipples. However, and this really surprised
    me, once I'd finished stress relieving the wheel (I really gave it some this time) the spokes were
    all much looser, I was quite easily able to give the whole wheel another quarter turn. It didn't
    half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang* *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate I'm getting
    too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is it to be expected? I'm trying to be very careful
    to avoid this.

    Anyway, I fine tuned the truing again, stress relived once more and hey presto, all done.

    Until I ride the damn thing again. No, I *will* be optimistic. I will, I will, I WILL!

    Incidently, thanks for the tips and hints from all who've offered advice, it's much appreciated.

    Bob
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  2. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Call me Bob wrote:
    > Took bike out for another hour today and sure enough rear wheel all unwound.

    Did the spokes loosen a lot? I'm not sure what happened there.

    > I'm embarrassed, but admitting it will be good for me:

    Don't worry about it. It's skilled job which takes ages to master. I still haven't totally -
    but I get by.

    > "Hello, my name is Bob and I'm a cack-handed halfwit"

    Hold on. If the rim itself was bent in an incident, you may never get it to /stay/ true by normal
    spoke-truing. Bending rim back can help in theory but so difficult to do in practice (to any fine
    degree) that I don't bother trying any more.

    > Anyway, I've had another crack at the job. Having decided that this must be down to insufficient
    > tension and ineffective stress relieving I've been much bolder than previously.

    Stress relieving only affects long-term fatigue resitance, so it's irrelevant here. (See the Jobst
    Brand quote I posted today in another message). Too slack or uneven tension can lead to problems
    though, so pull and pluck the spokes to check spokes have roughly the same tension (compared to
    spokes on same side).

    > As I worked I gradually increased tension around the wheel until most spokes on the drive side
    > were about as tight as I could turn them without damaging the nipples.

    That's about right.

    > However, and this really surprised me, once I'd finished stress relieving the wheel (I really gave
    > it some this time) the spokes were all much looser, I was quite easily able to give the whole
    > wheel another quarter turn. It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang*
    > *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is
    > it to be expected? I'm trying to be very careful to avoid this.

    It does indicate wind-up, but it's not a big problem, imo. Either try and eliminate by turning
    spoke key more than required then back a bit, or just accept they'll be a certain amount - then
    retrue and so on.

    Anyway, it's definitely worth trying truing again two or three more times if necessary. I'm still
    riding on a rear wheel which was badly put out of shape twice (pothole & last crash). It's not
    perfect but not too bad either.

    ~PB
     
  3. Frank

    Frank Guest

    "Call me Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > So, third time under the surgeons knife in three days for my poor rear wheel. Of course it's very
    > obvious I'm not qualified to surgeon standard yet. Probably wouldn't be allowed to take charge of
    > the fish fingers in the hospital canteen in fact.
    >
    > Took bike out for another hour today and sure enough rear wheel all unwound. I'm embarrassed, but
    > admitting it will be good for me:
    >
    > "Hello, my name is Bob and I'm a cack-handed halfwit"
    >
    > Anyway, I've had another crack at the job. Having decided that this must be down to insufficient
    > tension and ineffective stress relieving I've been much bolder than previously.
    >
    > As I worked I gradually increased tension around the wheel until most spokes on the drive side
    > were about as tight as I could turn them without damaging the nipples. However, and this really
    > surprised me, once I'd finished stress relieving the wheel (I really gave it some this time) the
    > spokes were all much looser, I was quite easily able to give the whole wheel another quarter turn.
    > It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang* *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate
    > I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is it to be expected? I'm trying to be
    > very careful to avoid this.
    >
    > Anyway, I fine tuned the truing again, stress relived once more and hey presto, all done.
    >
    > Until I ride the damn thing again. No, I *will* be optimistic. I will, I will, I WILL!
    >
    > Incidently, thanks for the tips and hints from all who've offered advice, it's much appreciated.
    >

    I'm constantly truing my back wheel, due to incompetence no doubt. I can get radial, lateral and
    dishing perfect but I can't get even tension on the spokes.

    Mind you I have used different spoke types as they have broken.

    But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping a
    year isn't to bad.

    Who needs to be perfect ;o) I would buy Jobst's book but I don't know what "at yield" or "memory"
    mean so I guess a lot of it would be over my head.
     
  4. Elyob

    Elyob Guest

    "Call me Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > So, third time under the surgeons knife in three days for my poor rear

    <wheel true snip>

    Give it the best shot you can do, but then take it to a mechanic and ask how they do it.

    Always trues opposites, i.e. each side and each width etc .... lessen some, tighten others ...

    </snip>

    p.s. always have decent wheels, otherwise take the machine off the road ...
     
  5. Call me Bob <[email protected]> wrote
    > It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang* *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate
    > I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is it to be expected? I'm trying to be
    > very careful to avoid this.

    As far as I know, those noises are due to wound-up spokes unwinding, not stress relieving. I try to
    avoid spoke wind-up by using copious amounts of grease both on the spoke threads and in the nipple,
    and by turning the spoke wrench further than needed, then turning back. It's not 100% effective at
    preventing spoke windup, but it helps alot.

    -Myra
     
  6. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Call me Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > As I worked I gradually increased tension around the wheel until most spokes on the drive side
    > were about as tight as I could turn them without damaging the nipples. However, and this really
    > surprised me, once I'd finished stress relieving the wheel (I really gave it some this time) the
    > spokes were all much looser, I was quite easily able to give the whole wheel another quarter turn.
    > It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang* *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate
    > I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is it to be expected? I'm trying to be
    > very careful to avoid this.
    >

    There seem to be two issues contributing here. One is not enough tension so the spokes are loosening
    in use. This is compounded with spoke wind up (signalled by the *pings* etc that is both causing
    unwinding and loss of true in the stress relieving and helping in loss of tension in use.

    Suggestions are to up the tension as you have done. Depending on rim, no of spokes etc you will
    either reach the point where it becomes almost impossible to turn some of the nipples or the wheel
    will go taco shaped when you stress relieve (in which case unwind one turn and retrue).

    On the spoke wind up, tell them not to be so gullible ;-) A bit of tape stuck on a spoke to make a
    flag near the nipple will tell you if its winding up. When you adjust, over adjust and the back of
    slightly until the flag is back in position. After a while you will get the feel and can get rid of
    the tape flags and the wheel will be silent when you stress relieve it and go on the first ride.

    Tony
     
  7. Andymorris

    Andymorris Guest

    Frank wrote:

    > But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping
    > a year isn't to bad.
    >
    > Who needs to be perfect ;o) I would buy Jobst's book but I don't know what "at yield" or "memory"
    > mean so I guess a lot of it would be over my head.

    Treat yourself, its a really well written book, it does not depend on much mechanical
    knowleadge at all.

    --
    Andy Morris

    AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

    Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
    http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
     
  8. "Frank" <[email protected]> wrote
    > But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping
    > a year isn't to bad.

    Gosh, I haven't broken a spoke in years. I also very seldom true the wheels I've built; once build
    they stay in good shape. I do however have to tighten up spokes on wheel I haven't built.

    > Who needs to be perfect ;o) I would buy Jobst's book but I don't know what "at yield" or "memory"
    > mean so I guess a lot of it would be over my head.

    I didn't know what any of that stuff meant either, but the book really is quite approachable to a
    non-engineer (well, I am an engineer, but a software engineer, which means that I'm more familiar
    with a keyboard than a screwdriver).

    I built my first wheel using only Sheldon's wheelbuilding instructions and photocopied info from and
    Edinbugh Bicycles wheelbuilding class, but reading The Bicycle Wheel I really understood what it was
    all about. The main criticism I have of the book is that it's very dry reading; Brandt doesn't
    believe in livening up his prose with the occasional joke.

    -Myra
     
  9. There's a good pictorial article in C+ this month on wheel truing. Out today
     
  10. Call Me Bob

    Call Me Bob Guest

    On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:07:39 -0000, "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:

    >Did the spokes loosen a lot? I'm not sure what happened there.

    Oh yes, all the way in fact. Several spokes were so loose as to be almost completely unwound from
    the nipple. How the hell can that happen in such a short time?

    >Don't worry about it. It's skilled job which takes ages to master. I still haven't totally - but
    >I get by.

    Thanks, I won't let this put me off, I'm determined to find out just what I'm doing wrong. Now I've
    started the process, I want to finish it, I *will* build my own wheels.

    >Hold on. If the rim itself was bent in an incident, you may never get it to /stay/ true by normal
    >spoke-truing. Bending rim back can help in theory but so difficult to do in practice (to any fine
    >degree) that I don't bother trying any more.

    I don't think the rim is damaged. The wheel went out of true because a pannier got jammed into it
    (at fairly low speed). It got sucked between the wheel and the seatstay and slightly bent a couple
    of spokes and loosened a few more. Rim took no real hit.

    >Stress relieving only affects long-term fatigue resitance, so it's irrelevant here. (See the Jobst
    >Brand quote I posted today in another message).

    Yes, thanks for that, I had thought that stress relieving had a role in settling everything home,
    helping to unwind spokes etc but apparently not.

    >Too slack or uneven tension can lead to problems though, so pull and pluck the spokes to check
    >spokes have roughly the same tension (compared to spokes on same side).

    This is something I've been concerned about. Even tension around the wheel is difficult to judge
    with my inexperienced hands. It's made more difficult because I've been dealing with a buggered
    wheel where the spokes are all at vastly different tensions to begin with. No common starting point
    to work from as it were - I've now tried to combat that, see other post.

    >It does indicate wind-up, but it's not a big problem, imo. Either try and eliminate by turning
    >spoke key more than required then back a bit, or just accept they'll be a certain amount - then
    >retrue and so on.

    I'm using the unwind method religiously, overturn spoke key, turn back slightly. I can actually feel
    windup sometimes as I release it, hopefully I'll become more tuned to it as I practice.

    >Anyway, it's definitely worth trying truing again two or three more times if necessary. I'm still
    >riding on a rear wheel which was badly put out of shape twice (pothole & last crash). It's not
    >perfect but not too bad either.

    Well I intend to keep trying, but, I'm failing so dismally at the moment I'm not sure how to
    proceed. Seems rather silly to keep doing the same things just for the wheel to quickly come apart
    in the same way. *shrug*

    Thanks for the input Pete.

    Bob
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  11. Call Me Bob

    Call Me Bob Guest

    On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:41:53 -0000, "Frank" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I'm constantly truing my back wheel, due to incompetence no doubt. I can get radial, lateral and
    >dishing perfect but I can't get even tension on the spokes.
    >
    >Mind you I have used different spoke types as they have broken.
    >
    >But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping
    >a year isn't to bad.

    Oh boy, right now I'd settle for that in a flash. My current pattern is true wheel, ride ten miles,
    inspect completely knackered wheel, true wheel... etc.

    Bob
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  12. Call Me Bob

    Call Me Bob Guest

    On 29 Jan 2003 02:02:17 -0800, [email protected] (Myra VanInwegen) wrote:

    >As far as I know, those noises are due to wound-up spokes unwinding, not stress relieving. I try to
    >avoid spoke wind-up by using copious amounts of grease both on the spoke threads and in the nipple,
    >and by turning the spoke wrench further than needed, then turning back. It's not 100% effective at
    >preventing spoke windup, but it helps alot.

    Yes, thanks for that Myra. I've oiled spokes/nipples and am using the overwind and turnback method
    you describe.

    I did notice (after I'd done mine, doh!) that Sheldon advises against greasing rear wheel non drive
    side nipples. Says that as they operate at lower tension the lubrication can actually encourage them
    to unwind in use.

    Bob
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  13. Call Me Bob

    Call Me Bob Guest

    On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC), "bob watkinson" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >There's a good pictorial article in C+ this month on wheel truing. Out today

    Ah, thanks very much, I'll pick it up.

    Bob
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  14. Call Me Bob

    Call Me Bob Guest

    On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:46:17 -0000, "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Suggestions are to up the tension as you have done. Depending on rim, no of spokes etc you will
    >either reach the point where it becomes almost impossible to turn some of the nipples or the wheel
    >will go taco shaped when you stress relieve (in which case unwind one turn and retrue).

    The rim is a pretty sturdy semi aero shaped 26", I'm getting enough tension into the spokes that I
    can't turn the nipples any more without rounding them. I think the rim would stand more tension but
    the spokes can't deliver it. Having said that I don't think this can be my problem, I had *plenty*
    of tension in the wheel at the end of my last attempt but it still came apart immediately I rode it.

    Thanks for your advice, I'll keep trying.

    Bob
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  15. Call me Bob wrote: <snip>
    > Well I intend to keep trying, but, I'm failing so dismally at the moment I'm not sure how to
    > proceed. Seems rather silly to keep doing the same things just for the wheel to quickly come apart
    > in the same way. *shrug*
    >
    I'd say that you're not tightening enough. It really does take quite a lot of tension to get it
    tight: if you pluck a spoke it should be somewhere towards the alto end of the scale, if not
    soprano. If it's got a male voice (except one that's just hit the crossbar), then I'd say they
    weren't tight enough.

    Ambrose, Going all musical
     
  16. Call Me Bob

    Call Me Bob Guest

    On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:01:11 -0000, "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I'd say that you're not tightening enough. It really does take quite a lot of tension to get it
    >tight: if you pluck a spoke it should be somewhere towards the alto end of the scale, if not
    >soprano. If it's got a male voice (except one that's just hit the crossbar), then I'd say they
    >weren't tight enough.

    Yep, you are not alone in suggesting more tension is necessary. I had thought I was getting
    everything tight enough but that may not have been the case prior to my last effort. The plucking
    technique has opened my eyes somewhat, it makes the differences in tension very apparent. I've been
    plucking all the wheels in the house this morning :eek:)

    Thanks for your suggestions.

    Bob
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  17. Call me Bob <[email protected]> wrote
    > I did notice (after I'd done mine, doh!) that Sheldon advises against greasing rear wheel non
    > drive side nipples. Says that as they operate at lower tension the lubrication can actually
    > encourage them to unwind in use.

    I copiously grease all nipples & spoke threads, drive side or no. I haven't had non-drive side
    spokes unwinding.

    -Myra
     
  18. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    > Call me Bob <[email protected]> wrote
    >> I did notice (after I'd done mine, doh!) that Sheldon advises against greasing rear wheel non
    >> drive side nipples. Says that as they operate at lower tension the lubrication can actually
    >> encourage them to unwind in use.

    Whether or not they would really unwind, I haven't had the need to lubricate the rear left ones -
    they don't get tight enough to strictly need it.

    ~PB
     
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