Stop NY's Anti-Bicycling Bill



On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:12:33 +0000, Pete wrote:

> Are you giving a ticket to the bike, or to the rider?


The rider of course.

You could alternately require all cyclists to carry some type of photo ID.
 
RE/
>Yes.
>
>There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one is
>that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.


Are we all headed for having Name/Social Security number tatooed on our
foreheads?
--
PeteCresswell
 
"maxo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:12:33 +0000, Pete wrote:
>
>> Are you giving a ticket to the bike, or to the rider?

>
> The rider of course.


Then why bother registering the bike?

>
> You could alternately require all cyclists to carry some type of photo ID.


As well as all pedestrians. Gotta be able to identify those jaywalkers...

Pete
 
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:27:28 +0000, stavros wrote:

> Actually, in Portland OR, you can roller skate in the bike lanes on the
> street.


That's common in a lot of towns and a fine idea--I just hope that there's
a law against headphones and skating to make that blend of traffic safe.

90% of close calls I have on designated paths are skaters with headphones.
I ring my bell. Wait. Ring it again....Finally I yell "Excuse ME", half
the time that gets me a middle finger. LOL
 
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:05:22 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

>Doing so would be much easier if the bicycles were registered.


*** Get the **** outta here.

Even kids bikes?

As long as the rider has ID (and even that is a question)
that's all the LEO needs.

Registering bicycles.

Get the **** outta here.

---
k e i t h a l e x a n d e r
http://www.modernamerican.com
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- - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -
 
(Pete Cresswell) wrote:
> RE/
>
>>Yes.
>>
>>There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one is
>>that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.

>
>
> Are we all headed for having Name/Social Security number tatooed on our
> foreheads?


You mean you didn't get yours done yet?

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws
 
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:46:33 +0000, Pete wrote:

> "maxo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:12:33 +0000, Pete wrote:
>>
>>> Are you giving a ticket to the bike, or to the rider?

>>
>> The rider of course.

>
> Then why bother registering the bike?


Lots of reasons, like when somebody's reporting a crime or a reckless
cyclist.

Theft recovery would be the best reason.

I do think the proposed fines are much too high, to be honest, it should
just be a case of not being registered should be a hassle, but not a huge
economic penalty, since that impacts the poor in a negative progressive
fashion. I kind of like Finland's policy of tying traffic violation fees
to the offenders last income tax statement. :D
 
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:45:37 +0000, (Pete Cresswell) wrote:

> RE/
>>Yes.
>>
>>There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one
>>is that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.

>
> Are we all headed for having Name/Social Security number tatooed on our
> foreheads?


That's so ghetto.

Like most of the cogniscenti, I'm chipped.
 
"maxo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:12:33 +0000, Pete wrote:
>
>> Are you giving a ticket to the bike, or to the rider?

>
> The rider of course.
>
> You could alternately require all cyclists to carry some type of photo ID.
>
>
>
>




Many states already require everyone to carry a photo ID. Georgia has required
this for several years. If you don't drive a car, a photo ID is available from
the state.
 
"maxo" <[email protected]> wrote

>
> Lots of reasons, like when somebody's reporting a crime or a reckless
> cyclist.


Unless the plate is huge, it will be unreadable from any distance. Useless
for any kind of reporting.

Pete
 
Pete wrote:
> "maxo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
>
>>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:34:58 -0500, Sheldon Brown wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Traveling the public streets under one's own power is a _right_ not a
>>>privilege.

>>
>>Says you, but can you back it up with actual legal precedent?
>>
>>I didn't think so.

>
>
> Plenty
>
> Berberian v. Petit (RI 1977)
> "The right to operate a motor vehicle is wholly a creation of state law; it
> certainly is not explicitly guaranteed by the Constitution, and nothing in
> that document or in our state constitution has even the slightest appearance
> or an implicit guarantee of that right. The plaintiff's argument that the
> right to operate a motor vehicle is fundamental because of its relation to
> the fundamental right of interstate travel ... is utterly frivolous. The
> plaintiff is not being prevented from traveling interstate by public
> transportation, by common carrier, or in a motor vehicle driven by someone
> with a license to drive it. What is at issue here is not his right to
> travel interstate, but his right to operate a motor vehicle on the public
> highways, and we have no hesitation in holding that this is not a
> fundamental right."
>
> Terpstra v. State (Ind.App 1988)
> "While there exists a fundamental right to travel, neither this court, nor
> our [state] supreme court, nor the US Supreme Court has ever held that there
> exists a fundamental right to drive a moter vehicle."
>
> State v. Davis (Mo.App 1988)
> "The state of Missouri, by making the licensing requirements in question,
> is not prohibiting Davis from expressing or practicing his religious beliefs
> or from traveling throughout this land. If he wishes, he may walk, ride a
> bicycle or horse, or travel as a passenger in an automobile, bus, airplane
> or helicopter
>
> Pete
>
>



Is there an explicit right in the Constitution for any particular mode
of transportation?

Steve
 
Pete wrote:
> "maxo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
>
>>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:48:52 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you want respect for the law, simply enforce existing traffic laws.

>>
>>Doing so would be much easier if the bicycles were registered.

>
>
> Are you giving a ticket to the bike, or to the rider?
>
> Pete
>
>


Who gets the ticket if you're caught on camera running a red light--the
driver or the registree?

Steve
 
Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:14:18 GMT,
<[email protected]>, maxo
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> What is the purpose of the registration for cars? Does that purpose exist
>> for bikes?

>
>Yes.
>
>There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one is
>that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.


The city tax amounts to $15 per year for a car.

The state doesn't require registration of bicycles and the city
registrations are handled by the state.

So to be fair take that $15.00 for, let's say, a 3000 lbs car.
That's a half cent per pound.
Even my forty pounder would cost less than a quarter to register.
Is that worth their hassle?
--
zk
 
maxo wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:05:11 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>
>>What is the purpose of the registration for cars? Does that purpose exist
>>for bikes?

>
>
> Yes.
>
> There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one is
> that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.


The logical answer for this would be to register PEOPLE and make them
walk around wearing identification numbers. That way you'd also get the
joggers, walkers, purse snatchers, etc. Something like this has been
tried before, hasn't it?
--

--------------------

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:24:48 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:34:58 -0500, Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
>> So are shoes and baby carriages and wheelbarrows and rolling suitcases and
>> roller skates and shopping carts and skateboards. Should these be
>> registered too?

>
>Sidewalks are used for those activities. Roller skates and inline skates
>are illegal on most cities' streets, btw, though that law is rarely
>enforced.
>
>Haven't seen any wheelbarrows cruising down the lane around here lately.
>
>
>
>>Traveling the public streets under one's own power is a _right_ not a
>>privilege.

>
>Says you, but can you back it up with actual legal precedent?


Yes. Most definitely yes. It's called the public right-of-way, and
it is enshrined in law since the early days of the Republic and in
other places that have traditions far older. The necessity to have
these public rights-of-way had been established long before the US
came into existence, of course, and certain restrictions on the
methods of their use have been found necessary from time to time, but
the central concept remains; the use of these spaces as a passage to
move to and through other places is the reason for their designation,
and the right to use them is granted to all. The privilege of
*piloting* a motor vehicle on them is reserved to the competent, but
anyone may engage the services of a competent driver to take them on
to those rights-of-way to their destination. And so it is that in
most states of the US, by extention of the law from long ago,
human-powered wheeled vehicles require no operator's license but their
riders are granted the *right* to use those rights-of-way so long as
the rules of vehicle operation are followed, in the same manner that
they have been since before the automobile became a commonplace
machine. It is not a privilege, it is a right with obligations.

All of that said, it would be perfectly legal for a state to require
that its own residents purchase some form of registration; it is not
reasonable, however, for a state to close its roads to outsiders,
demanding that they must purchase such a registration or be excluded
from the rights-of-way. That was established long ago as well, and
the precedents are so old that citing them is redundant in the face of
legal custom that makes it unnecessary. (This does not apply to all
commercial vehicles, however; for a variety of reasons, there are
situations in which it is held to be acceptable for a state to demand
that a common carrier doing business *in* the state must have paid
vehicle registration fees *to* the state...but even this has been
widely challenged and is no longer commonly the case. In its place,
the various states have enacted legislation that requires that common
carriers must pay a use tax for the fuel that they burn in that state,
whether they bought the fuel there or not; in most cases, if the
carrier *did* buy fuel in the state, that is held to be sufficient to
fulfill the requirement...but if they didn't, then the carrier can be
required to pay that state's use tax on fuel that was also taxed where
it was purchased. This Catch-22 situation is a very sore point for
the trucking industry, and is essentially irrelevant to this
discussion.)
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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Pete wrote:

> "maxo" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>
>>Lots of reasons, like when somebody's reporting a crime or a reckless
>>cyclist.

>
>
> Unless the plate is huge, it will be unreadable from any distance. Useless
> for any kind of reporting.
>


Just register people. That way you get bad cyclists and jaywalkers and
purse snatcher, etc. We can tatoo the ID number on their arms.


--

--------------------

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:02:44 GMT, "Scott Ehardt"
<SCEhardt--((REM@VE))--SCEhardt.com> wrote:

>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:14:18 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one is
>>>that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.

>>
>> You're saying you want someone to do something that some arbitrary
>> law requires, just to get them to respect laws in general? That's at
>> best poor reasoning and at worst ********.
>>
>> If you want respect for the law, simply enforce existing traffic laws.
>>
>> JT

>
>
>How can existing traffic laws be enforced if the people you are trying to
>enforce them on have no form of ID?


Think about it. How can laws agains littering, or jaywalking, leaving
dog **** on the street or any other minor problems be enforced if
people have no forms of ID?

Or are you saying everyone who could possibly break the law should
have some sort of registration or ID on them so that other laws can be
enforced?

JT

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:05:22 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:48:52 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> If you want respect for the law, simply enforce existing traffic laws.

>
>Doing so would be much easier if the bicycles were registered.


Do you have any evidence that people are flouting traffic laws because
they have no bike registration? Or are you just talking out of your
ass?

JT

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On 17 Nov 2004 12:20:44 -0800, [email protected] (supabonbon) wrote:

>Please visit http://www.transalt.org/press/askta/041116bikebill.html
>and send an email to Councilmember Madeline Provenzano to cool it. (A
>little history: a bike lane was striped on Ms. Provenzano's street,
>which she tried to have moved/removed. For some reason, she just
>doesn't like our kind.)
>
>If you want to call her office, the number is 212-788-7375.


Here's some information on her Bronx district:
http://www.gothamgazette.com/searchlight/dist13.shtml

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.