Stop NY's Anti-Bicycling Bill



On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:45:21 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:12:33 +0000, Pete wrote:
>
>> Are you giving a ticket to the bike, or to the rider?

>
>The rider of course.
>
>You could alternately require all cyclists to carry some type of photo ID.


I know that some people litter, tossing out bottles and cans when
walking down the street.. If people were required to have some sort
of ID if they had a bottle or can outside, it would promote repect for
the laws against littering. That's got to be a good thing, right?

JT


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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:05:11 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:36:06 -0800, "GaryG"
><garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>1) Bicycles are used on public streets, just like cars.
>>
>>2) I have to register my car each year, and make sure I have proof of
>>registration when I drive.
>>
>>Is the registration requirement for motorized vehicles "anti-car"?
>>
>>Given the similar requirements for motorized vehicles, how is a bicycle
>>registration requirement "anti-bicycling"?

>
>What is the purpose of the registration for cars?


1. Revenue collection, to fund street construction and repair.
2. To identify the owner of a vehicle for a variety of reasons.
3. To provide a quick method of differentiating between similar
vehicles through the presence of a unique identifier on the exterior.

>Does that purpose
>exist for bikes?


Purpose #1 is hard to address; certainly, the state has an interest in
collecting revenue wherever it can, but as bikes presently use
facilities that were built for cars in most cases, and do so in a
mnner that has only a small impact on the cost of construction and
maintenance of those facilities, it is debatable whether the useage
fee component can be reasonably applied.

Purposes #2 and #3 are not readily applicable to bicycles because
there is no requirement for bicycles to have a unique serial
number...and many do not. As such, a registration tag or decal's
presence is not a verifiable means of determining that the bicycle on
which it is present is also the bicycle for which it was purchased.

>What would be the impact of not having registration
>for cars?


Oy. First, gasoline taxes would have to go up to cover the lost
revenue. Okay, so that's not a bad thing. Second, every time the
cops had a situation in which a fugitive was being sought, they would
end up stopping *lots* of people unecessarily just because they were
driving the same kind of vehicle. Third, it would become next to
impossible to enforce parking laws without the use of the boot.
Fourth, it would become much more difficult to find and apprehend
hit-and-run drivers, since there would probably be no description
available for the driver at all. I could go on at considerable
length.

>Would the streets be safer or less safe?


Much less safe.

> What about
>requiring registration for bikes? Would the streets be less safe?


In view of a number of things, including the fact that the number of
bike-caused safety infractions is so low that no tracking is even
attempted in most jurisdictions, there is no basis for holding that
registering bikes would contribute to increased safety.

>Don't be simplistic in looking at public policy.


Always suspect that there is a monetarily-related interest driving
public policy.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:56:09 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:


>Theft recovery would be the best reason.


Please. Stop grasping at straws. There are a lot of trees stolen in
some of the nice suburbs outside New York. They should probably be
registered too by your logic.

In public policy, laws should be put in place with specific objectives
that can actually be achieved. And the laws should not cause worse
problems. This law will reduce the number of cyclists and encourage
other forms of transportation in a crowded city. And it will either
waste police time enforcing something with little benefit. Or it will
only be enforced when cyclists **** police off. Both are not good.

JT

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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:10:06 -0500, "Neal" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Many states already require everyone to
> carry a photo ID. Georgia has required
> this for several years.


Source?

JT

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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:31:40 -0800, Slacker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>What a screwed up state!
>
>Maybe it's time to move to a real MTB-ing state like F L O R I D A


Excuse me, but while mountain bikes are sold in Florida, there are no
mountains. In much of that state, there aren't even any *hills*.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:58:00 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:45:37 +0000, (Pete Cresswell) wrote:
>
>> RE/
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one
>>>is that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.

>>
>> Are we all headed for having Name/Social Security number tatooed on our
>> foreheads?

>
>That's so ghetto.
>
>Like most of the cogniscenti, I'm chipped.


I'm hoping genetic science advances enough that even if people cut
their chips out they can still be ID'd. And that we have a massive
global database of genetic markers, with people required to give tiny
tissue samples at all the checkpoints.

JT


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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:43:42 -0500, Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com>
wrote:

>On 17 Nov 2004 12:20:44 -0800, [email protected] (supabonbon) wrote:
>
>>Please visit http://www.transalt.org/press/askta/041116bikebill.html
>>and send an email to Councilmember Madeline Provenzano to cool it. (A
>>little history: a bike lane was striped on Ms. Provenzano's street,
>>which she tried to have moved/removed. For some reason, she just
>>doesn't like our kind.)
>>
>>If you want to call her office, the number is 212-788-7375.

>
>Here's some information on her Bronx district:
>http://www.gothamgazette.com/searchlight/dist13.shtml
>


I encourage everyone in NYC to write to their own council person and
cc her to denouce this plan. I did so today. Be sure to include your
address to demonstrate you are a constituent.

http://www.nyccouncil.info/constituent/index.cfm

JT


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Ronsonic <> wrote:

>Ride-A-Lot <[email protected]>wrote:


>>This isn't going to work though. You have to make it difficult for
>>here. Organize a thousand riders to block her driveway a few times.

>
>That's the ticket. Antagonizing people always wins 'em over to your cause.
>Especially if you use the thing they're proposing to regulate.
>
>Smart.


Let's look at the math on this new legislation... a bunch of cyclists
do their best to disrupt a large group of legislators in NYC. A few
months later, we have a new law on the books making it hard on all
cyclists in NYC.

Not to hard to figure out. Be careful when you demand "attention"...
you just might get it.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
maxo <[email protected]> writes:

> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:34:58 -0500, Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
>>Traveling the public streets under one's own power is a _right_ not
>>a privilege.

>
> Says you, but can you back it up with actual legal precedent?
>
> I didn't think so.


Well, Max, it's rather rude of you to jump to such conclusions. Must
be that fine New York courtesy that's so justly famous.

Google turns up at least 130,000 hits for the topic of access to
public thoroughfares. In addition, every state has laws regarding
public access to public rights of way, and there are federal laws as
well. So, before you start shooting off your yap, you might want to
look into the topic a little bit. Indeed, ISTEA, TEA-21, etc cover
this topic explicitly.

Operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, not a right, hence it is a
licensed and restricted activity. Operating a bicycle is, like
walking, a right and is not a licensed or restricted activity. The
privilege to drive can be taken away by due process, the right to
bicycle or walk cannot.

But don't take my word for it, go read the verious laws for
yourself. Google is your friend.
 
Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]> writes:

> Is there an explicit right in the Constitution for any particular
> mode of transportation?


In the US Constitution? Insofar as there are federal laws regarding
interstate travel and access to federal thoroughfares, yes. At the
state level, all states also have laws regarding the establishment and
right of access to public roadways. The law is explicit in all states
that every person has equal rights of access to public roads. The
only restricted mode of transportation is operation of a motor
vehicle, as far as I have been able to find; therefore the operation
of a motor vehicle is not a right but a privilege, while other modes
of transportation retain the status of rights. However, these rights
can also be somewhat restricted, as in the creation of restricted
access interstate roads where nonmotorized vehicles are not allowed-
unless there is no feasible alternative route.
 
Scott Ehardt wrote:

> How can existing traffic laws be enforced if the people you are trying to
> enforce them on have no form of ID?


My understanding is that police officer is entitled to ask you who you
are, and where you live, and you have to answer truthfully.

However, if the officer has no reason to believe you to be a liar, there
is no obligation for you to document this information.

In the case of a serious crime, of course, a police officer may arrest you.

We don't have the Gestapo stopping random citizens to demand their
papers in the U.S. ...yet.

Sheldon "Eternal Vigilance" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------+
| When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, |
| social collapse is not far away. It is time to go |
| elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is |
| that it made it possible to go elsewhere. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:24:47 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

>Ronsonic <> wrote:
>
>>Ride-A-Lot <[email protected]>wrote:

>
>>>This isn't going to work though. You have to make it difficult for
>>>here. Organize a thousand riders to block her driveway a few times.

>>
>>That's the ticket. Antagonizing people always wins 'em over to your cause.
>>Especially if you use the thing they're proposing to regulate.
>>
>>Smart.

>
>Let's look at the math on this new legislation... a bunch of cyclists
>do their best to disrupt a large group of legislators in NYC. A few
>months later, we have a new law on the books making it hard on all
>cyclists in NYC.
>
>Not to hard to figure out. Be careful when you demand "attention"...
>you just might get it.


Remember the junk fax law some years ago - the fax advertisers lobbying heavily
in their own style all but guaranteed passage.

Ron


>Mark Hickey
>Habanero Cycles
>http://www.habcycles.com
>Home of the $695 ti frame
 
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:37:40 -0500, Ronsonic <unknown> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:33:53 -0800, Bill Baka
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:57:34 -0500, Matt O'Toole <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:14:30 GMT, Chris Phillipo
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Apparently terrorst bombers don't register their bikes and therefore
>>>>> will be easy to spot.
>>>
>>>> How about a bike stuffed with C4 rigged to go off when placed in a
>>>> police car?
>>>
>>> Funny, I had a sticker awhile back that said "this bike is a pipe bomb"
>>> -- which
>>> was the name of a band I saw several years ago, at Al's Bar in LA. I
>>> had it on
>>> my mountain bike for awhile, but took it off awhile ago -- just to be
>>> safe!
>>>
>>> Matt O.
>>>
>>>

>> I keep spare money, $100 bills, rolled up and about 5 each in a piece of
>> 1/2" pipe threaded with caps on both ends. Each of these is a $500
>> stash.
>> I don't even remember where I tossed some of them, but I do take a few
>> tossed in my car on trips, just in case. If a cop ever pulled me over
>> and
>> demanded to see my trunk would they blow up my car?
>> This country is getting stranger by the day.

>
> You carry your money in pipes and you think it's the rest of the country
> that's
> gone weird?!?!
>
> Ron
>

My wife and I came up with it one day while fishing and having too many
beers
and initially thought it would be a good way to stash some money that would
be waterproof. It just became a handy way to roll up $100 bills 5 at a time
and stash them in pipes. Frustrated inventor, that's all.


--
Bill (not always politically correct) Baka
 
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:45:37 GMT, (Pete Cresswell) <[email protected]> wrote:

> RE/
>> Yes.
>>
>> There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one
>> is
>> that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.

>
> Are we all headed for having Name/Social Security number tatooed on our
> foreheads?


Quite probably, or a sub-cutaneous RFID implant. The book 1984 was right
except for the year. Thailand was going to implement that to keep tabs
on their people for their own safety. Yeah, right.

--
Bill (not always politically correct) Baka
 
maxo wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:48:52 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>
>>If you want respect for the law, simply enforce existing traffic laws.

>
>
> Doing so would be much easier if the bicycles were registered.
>


Expedience? Please! We can do better than that. Skip registering
bikes. Let cops just go ahead and shoot anyone they see breaking the
law. Now that's simple!

Wasn't this country founded on the principle of making things easy for
cops? Isn't that what America's all about?

--

--------------------

Remove CLOTHES to reply
 
"Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:37:40 -0500, Ronsonic <unknown> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:33:53 -0800, Bill Baka
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:57:34 -0500, Matt O'Toole <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bill Baka wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:14:30 GMT, Chris Phillipo
> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Apparently terrorst bombers don't register their bikes and therefore
> >>>>> will be easy to spot.
> >>>
> >>>> How about a bike stuffed with C4 rigged to go off when placed in a
> >>>> police car?
> >>>
> >>> Funny, I had a sticker awhile back that said "this bike is a pipe

bomb"
> >>> -- which
> >>> was the name of a band I saw several years ago, at Al's Bar in LA. I
> >>> had it on
> >>> my mountain bike for awhile, but took it off awhile ago -- just to be
> >>> safe!
> >>>
> >>> Matt O.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I keep spare money, $100 bills, rolled up and about 5 each in a piece

of
> >> 1/2" pipe threaded with caps on both ends. Each of these is a $500
> >> stash.
> >> I don't even remember where I tossed some of them, but I do take a few
> >> tossed in my car on trips, just in case. If a cop ever pulled me over
> >> and
> >> demanded to see my trunk would they blow up my car?
> >> This country is getting stranger by the day.

> >
> > You carry your money in pipes and you think it's the rest of the country
> > that's
> > gone weird?!?!
> >
> > Ron
> >

> My wife and I came up with it one day while fishing and having too many
> beers
> and initially thought it would be a good way to stash some money that

would
> be waterproof. It just became a handy way to roll up $100 bills 5 at a

time
> and stash them in pipes. Frustrated inventor, that's all.
>
>
> --
> Bill (not always politically correct) Baka


LOL - yeah, that does sound like one of those "hold my beer (or bong) and
watch this" ideas.

The fact that you actually followed through on it gives you extra "Odd Duck"
points. Not sure what kind of crowd you hang out with, but that's some
seriously weird sh*t.

GG
 
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:58:00 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:45:37 +0000, (Pete Cresswell) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>RE/
>>>
>>>>Yes.
>>>>
>>>>There are many purposes for registering a car, but a very important one
>>>>is that anonymity can foster disrespect for the law.
>>>
>>>Are we all headed for having Name/Social Security number tatooed on our
>>>foreheads?

>>
>>That's so ghetto.
>>
>>Like most of the cogniscenti, I'm chipped.

>
>
> I'm hoping genetic science advances enough that even if people cut
> their chips out they can still be ID'd. And that we have a massive
> global database of genetic markers, with people required to give tiny
> tissue samples at all the checkpoints.
>
> JT
>
>
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************

What the ****? You want to be tracked everywhere you go? 1984 all over
again. Of course you have to be literate enough to have read the book.
Perhaps you don't GROK the consequences. If you don't know GROK go
read some Heinlien "Stranger in a strange land". It was so popular it
was almost geed required reading.
I'll stick with be untracked.
Bill Baka
 
On 18 nov 2004, Tim Lines wrote:

>
> Just register people. That way you get bad cyclists and jaywalkers
> and purse snatcher, etc. We can tatoo the ID number on their arms.
>
>


Great idea! It worked here in Europe some 60 years ago. Every non-uniformed
worker in specially designated areas in Germany an Poland had their ID
number tattoed on the inside of their forearm.

Mus've had some side effects, though, 'cause most of them died from gas
poisoning after a short time...

--

Størker Moe
'97 GT Avalanche, '98 Trek 800, '01 Trek Fuel 90

Email Storker(DOT)Moe(AT)chemeng(DOT)ntnu(DOT)no
WWW http://www.chemeng.ntnu.no/~stmoe/
 
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:14:38 -0800, GaryG
<garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:

> "Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:37:40 -0500, Ronsonic <unknown> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:33:53 -0800, Bill Baka
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:57:34 -0500, Matt O'Toole <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Bill Baka wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:14:30 GMT, Chris Phillipo
>> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Apparently terrorst bombers don't register their bikes and

>> therefore
>> >>>>> will be easy to spot.
>> >>>
>> >>>> How about a bike stuffed with C4 rigged to go off when placed in a
>> >>>> police car?
>> >>>
>> >>> Funny, I had a sticker awhile back that said "this bike is a pipe

> bomb"
>> >>> -- which
>> >>> was the name of a band I saw several years ago, at Al's Bar in LA.

>> I
>> >>> had it on
>> >>> my mountain bike for awhile, but took it off awhile ago -- just to

>> be
>> >>> safe!
>> >>>
>> >>> Matt O.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> I keep spare money, $100 bills, rolled up and about 5 each in a piece

> of
>> >> 1/2" pipe threaded with caps on both ends. Each of these is a $500
>> >> stash.
>> >> I don't even remember where I tossed some of them, but I do take a

>> few
>> >> tossed in my car on trips, just in case. If a cop ever pulled me over
>> >> and
>> >> demanded to see my trunk would they blow up my car?
>> >> This country is getting stranger by the day.
>> >
>> > You carry your money in pipes and you think it's the rest of the

>> country
>> > that's
>> > gone weird?!?!
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >

>> My wife and I came up with it one day while fishing and having too many
>> beers
>> and initially thought it would be a good way to stash some money that

> would
>> be waterproof. It just became a handy way to roll up $100 bills 5 at a

> time
>> and stash them in pipes. Frustrated inventor, that's all.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bill (not always politically correct) Baka

>
> LOL - yeah, that does sound like one of those "hold my beer (or bong) and
> watch this" ideas.
>
> The fact that you actually followed through on it gives you extra "Odd
> Duck"
> points. Not sure what kind of crowd you hang out with, but that's some
> seriously weird sh*t.
>
> GG
>
>

My crowd is non engineers who like to invent silly things. Not seriously
weird unless I start padding my matress with it. Besides, I know where I
put it in case of fire. I hate having to go to the bank and then get
charged for getting my own money.


--
Bill (not always politically correct) Baka
 
"Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:14:38 -0800, GaryG
> <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
>
> > "Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> >> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:37:40 -0500, Ronsonic <unknown> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:33:53 -0800, Bill Baka
> >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:57:34 -0500, Matt O'Toole <[email protected]>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Bill Baka wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:14:30 GMT, Chris Phillipo
> >> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>> Apparently terrorst bombers don't register their bikes and
> >> therefore
> >> >>>>> will be easy to spot.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> How about a bike stuffed with C4 rigged to go off when placed in a
> >> >>>> police car?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Funny, I had a sticker awhile back that said "this bike is a pipe

> > bomb"
> >> >>> -- which
> >> >>> was the name of a band I saw several years ago, at Al's Bar in LA.
> >> I
> >> >>> had it on
> >> >>> my mountain bike for awhile, but took it off awhile ago -- just to
> >> be
> >> >>> safe!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Matt O.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >> I keep spare money, $100 bills, rolled up and about 5 each in a

piece
> > of
> >> >> 1/2" pipe threaded with caps on both ends. Each of these is a $500
> >> >> stash.
> >> >> I don't even remember where I tossed some of them, but I do take a
> >> few
> >> >> tossed in my car on trips, just in case. If a cop ever pulled me

over
> >> >> and
> >> >> demanded to see my trunk would they blow up my car?
> >> >> This country is getting stranger by the day.
> >> >
> >> > You carry your money in pipes and you think it's the rest of the
> >> country
> >> > that's
> >> > gone weird?!?!
> >> >
> >> > Ron
> >> >
> >> My wife and I came up with it one day while fishing and having too many
> >> beers
> >> and initially thought it would be a good way to stash some money that

> > would
> >> be waterproof. It just became a handy way to roll up $100 bills 5 at a

> > time
> >> and stash them in pipes. Frustrated inventor, that's all.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bill (not always politically correct) Baka

> >
> > LOL - yeah, that does sound like one of those "hold my beer (or bong)

and
> > watch this" ideas.
> >
> > The fact that you actually followed through on it gives you extra "Odd
> > Duck"
> > points. Not sure what kind of crowd you hang out with, but that's some
> > seriously weird sh*t.
> >
> > GG
> >
> >

> My crowd is non engineers who like to invent silly things. Not seriously
> weird unless I start padding my matress with it. Besides, I know where I
> put it in case of fire. I hate having to go to the bank and then get
> charged for getting my own money.
>
>
> --
> Bill (not always politically correct) Baka


Hmmmm....you must hang with a very odd crowd.

FWIW, I can think of many adjectives for a pipe bomb piggy bank, but "silly"
is not one of them.

GG