Stopping quickly with a fixed gear without doing a header

[Peter]

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation without
launching yourselves over the handlebars as once happened to
me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn onto a one way
arterial road.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

"Peter" wrote:

> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
> tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation
> without launching yourselves over the handlebars as once
> happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
> onto a one way arterial road.

You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just
about lifts off. This is the shortest that you can stop any
bike of normal geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.

The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give
you a better feel for what's happening to rear wheel
traction than you'll get with a coastie.

That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on
slippery surfaces.

Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny
bit. When this happens, you know you've found the "sweet
spot" for maximal braking. This happened to me the other
night on a local bike path when a wild goose tried to cross
in front of me...

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn" Brown +-----------------------------------------------
+
| The wayfarer | Perceiving the pathway to truth, |
| Was struck with astonishment. | It was thickly grown
| with weeds. | "Ha," he said, | "I see that none has
| passed here | In a long time." | Later he saw that
| each weed | Was a singular knife. | "Well," he
| mumbled at last, | "Doubtless there are other
| roads." | --Stephen Crane |
+-----------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Peter]

Thanks for the fast reply Sheldon. My problem was I was over
the bars befor I fekt anything lifting. Fortunately I landed
on my feet. Unfortunately the dountube on the custom built
Cyclops Track frame bent just enough to prevent the front
wheel from traversing when the bars were turned. I was able
to straighten it enough to ride home, very slowly for
safeties sake, buy sitting and bracing my feet against the
bb and appliying a steady pulling pressure on the front
wheel. I swear that kid was a Kamikaze rider in training.
Either that he had an appointment att the morgue and was
hours late for it!

"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Peter" wrote:
>
> > Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
> > tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation
> > without launching yourselves over
the
> > handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an
> > illegal left hand
turn
> > onto a one way arterial road.
>
> You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just
> about lifts off. This is the shortest that you can stop
> any bike of normal geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.
>
> The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give
> you a better feel for what's happening to rear wheel
> traction than you'll get with a coastie.
>
> That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on
> slippery surfaces.
>
> Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a
> tiny bit. When this happens, you know you've found the
> "sweet spot" for maximal braking. This happened to me the
> other night on a local bike path when a wild goose tried
> to cross in front of me...
>
> Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn" Brown +-----------------------------------------------
> +
> | The wayfarer | Perceiving the pathway to truth, |
> | Was struck with astonishment. | It was thickly
> | grown with weeds. | "Ha," he said, | "I see that
> | none has passed here | In a long time." | Later he
> | saw that each weed | Was a singular knife. |
> | "Well," he mumbled at last, | "Doubtless there are
> | other roads." | --Stephen Crane |
> +-----------------------------------------------+ Harris
> Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
> 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
> shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
> http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Zog The Undenia]

Peter wrote:

> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
> tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation
> without launching yourselves over the handlebars as once
> happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
> onto a one way arterial road.
>
>
Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as
possible. The front wheel can be skidded without you going
over the bars.

 

[Paul Southworth]

In article <[email protected]>,
Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Peter" wrote:
>
>> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
>> tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation
>> without launching yourselves over the handlebars as once
>> happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
>> onto a one way arterial road.
>
>You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just
>about lifts off. This is the shortest that you can stop any
>bike of normal geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.
>
>The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give
>you a better feel for what's happening to rear wheel
>traction than you'll get with a coastie.
>
>That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on
>slippery surfaces.
>
>Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a
>tiny bit.

This is a good thing?? Sounds like a lot of risk when one
can simply install a rear caliper. When braking you want
maximum friction against the road. When the wheel lifts off,
you get zero friction against the road, and the braking
power of your feet on the cranks is likewise zero.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

"Peter" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
>>>tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation
>>>without launching yourselves over the handlebars as once
>>>happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
>>>onto a one way arterial road.

I replied:

>>You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just
>>about lifts off. This is the shortest that you can stop
>>any bike of normal geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.
>>
>>The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give
>>you a better feel for what's happening to rear wheel
>>traction than you'll get with a coastie.
>>
>>That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on
>>slippery surfaces.
>>
>>Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a
>>tiny bit.
>
Paul Southworth wrote:
>
> This is a good thing?? Sounds like a lot of risk when one
> can simply install a rear caliper.

That won't help you stop any faster.

> When braking you want maximum friction against the road.
> When the wheel lifts off, you get zero friction against
> the road, and the braking power of your feet on the cranks
> is likewise zero.

Right, and a rear caliper is equally useless when you're
applying maximal braking, for the same reason.

This is explained in detail at
http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn

Sheldon "Stop!" Brown +------------------------------------------------------
+
| A billion here, a couple of billion there -- | first
| thing you know it adds up to be real money. | --Sen.
| Everett McKinley Dirksen |
+------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Zog The Undeniable wrote:

> Peter wrote:
>
>> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
>> tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation
>> without launching yourselves over the handlebars as once
>> happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
>> onto a one way arterial road.
>>
> Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as
> possible. The front wheel can be skidded without you going
> over the bars.

Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it
could, I'd be very hesitant to brake in this fashion. I can
controllably lift my rear wheel by braking, but I doubt I
could control anything if the front wheel started to skid.

--
Benjamin Lewis

A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is
superior, but they are held by most to be the lunatic fringe
of Foil Deflector Beanie science.

 

[Zog The Undenia]

Benjamin Lewis wrote:

> I wrote:

>>Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as
>>possible. The front wheel can be skidded without you going
>>over the bars.
>
>
> Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it
> could, I'd be very hesitant to brake in this fashion. I
> can controllably lift my rear wheel by braking, but I
> doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
> to skid.
>
I did it the other week coming down a 25% hill. You just
release the brake a bit when you hear the tyre skidding.
In this case the asphalt was dry but there was a bit of
loose grit on it. I've also done it on completely clean
dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing a really
big handful of brake in a panic can make the front wheel
break loose, and sliding friction is less than static
friction so it's quite possible to keep going with both
wheels locked (my record is at least 20 yards, with no
crashes yet). It doesn't do much for bike control, but
does prove the point that gyroscopic forces have little to
do with keeping a bike upright. I've heard that in some
countries where lakes freeze over all winter, it's
considered a mildly diverting challenge to ride on the ice
with the front brake firmly locked.

The point is that no experienced cyclist should ever go over
the bars just by using the front brake.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Benjamin Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:

> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
> > Peter wrote:
> >
> >> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders
> >> can tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic
> >> situation without launching yourselves over the
> >> handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an
> >> illegal left hand turn onto a one way arterial road.
> >>
> > Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as
> > possible. The front wheel can be skidded without you
> > going over the bars.
>
> Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it
> could, I'd be very hesitant to brake in this fashion. I
> can controllably lift my rear wheel by braking, but I
> doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
> to skid.

Practice, practice. You haven't lived until you've slid the
front wheel of a motorcycle. Which I have done, and which I
have sometimes done without falling down.

This is one of those skills that's best acquired by just
going out and bombing around on the trails for a while with
a mountain bike. Heck, go out on a road bike and you'll have
a chance to slide your front tire like crazy!

everything in modulation,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[x]

RE/
> This happened to me the other night on a local bike path
> when a wild goose tried to cross in front of me...

BTW: Don't mess with Mother Goose. (or maybe Father
Goose...)

A year or two ago I was crossing a large blacktop parking
area when a Canada goose started that head-bobbing, hissing
thing. I started to go wide around it, but the thing ran
over to continue the confrontation.

Thunk I "Geeze, it's just a fushluggener *goose*...We
*eat* geese around here. Outta my way you dumb bird!"...
and I charged.

Beeg mistake.

Got by the thing, then saw it take off in the other
direction out of the corner of my eye. Then it did a 180 and
came at me from behind at head level pecking, biting, and
beating on me with it's wings.... Was *really* glad I had a
helmet on. Got a few superficial cuts and some nice bruises
on my shoulder blades out of it.

Found out later that one of those things can break your arm.
Something called a "baton fracture" - as from a cop's
club....lots of force applied to a very small area by the
bone along the leading edge of the wing.
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Tim McNamara]

"Peter" <[email protected]> writes:

> Thanks for the fast reply Sheldon. My problem was I was
> over the bars befor I fekt anything lifting. Fortunately I
> landed on my feet. Unfortunately the dountube on the
> custom built Cyclops Track frame bent just enough to
> prevent the front wheel from traversing when the bars were
> turned. I was able to straighten it enough to ride home,
> very slowly for safeties sake, buy sitting and bracing my
> feet against the bb and appliying a steady pulling
> pressure on the front wheel. I swear that kid was a
> Kamikaze rider in training. Either that he had an
> appointment att the morgue and was hours late for it!

I don't get what happened. Are you saying you braked so hard
that you bent the downtube? Or did you run into something?

 

[Papercut]

Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<40869bbb.0@entanet>...
> Peter wrote:
>
> > Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can
> > tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic situation
> > without launching yourselves over the handlebars as once
> > happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
> > onto a one way arterial road.
> >
> >
> Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as
> possible. The front wheel can be skidded without you going
> over the bars.

What's the point of getting the front tire to skid? If it's
skidding, you'd still benefit from having a rear brake for
additional braking.

In real world situations, I can't envision braking just
hard enough that the rear wheel is about to lift off the
ground (but no more) intentionally and controllably. Such
situations where one *must* stop that quickly usually
seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such a
controlled manner.

 

[Vrishni Vibhuti]

Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote about skidding the front wheel:

> was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also
> done it on completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth
> asphalt. Grabbing a

You're lying.

 

[S O R N I]

Vrishni Vibhuti wrote:
> Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote about
> skidding the front wheel:
>
>> was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've
>> also done it on completely clean dry asphalt and on wet
>> smooth asphalt. Grabbing a
>
> You're lying.

But, but...he's undeniable!

Bill "skid around THAT" S.

 

[Rick Onanian]

On 21 Apr 2004 21:14:45 -0700, [email protected] (papercut) wrote:
>In real world situations, I can't envision braking just
>hard enough that the rear wheel is about to lift off the
>ground (but no more) intentionally and controllably. Such
>situations where one *must* stop that quickly usually
>seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such a
>controlled manner.

It's not hard. Your mind (should) speed up to process
emergencies like that, at least at an unconscious level.
When I was test-riding the road bike that I later bought, I
was going downhill doing probably 30 or 35 mph when a car
pulled out of a sidestreet very fast; I braked so hard that
the rear of the bike got very squirrely.

I know the bike had more brake available, and I know I was
panicked, but something deep in my usually slow-thinking*
brain was up to the task of limiting my brake force when I
felt the rear unweight.

* Slow, but deep thought
--
Rick Onanian

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

prekow-<< Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear
riders can tell me how you stop your bikes in a panic
situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an
illegal left hand turn
>><BR><BR>

Butt way back(over the end of the saddle), lots of brake and
use der legs to stop, trackie style...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Mark Hickey]

Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 21 Apr 2004 21:14:45 -0700, [email protected]
>(papercut) wrote:
>>In real world situations, I can't envision braking just
>>hard enough that the rear wheel is about to lift off the
>>ground (but no more) intentionally and controllably. Such
>>situations where one *must* stop that quickly usually
>>seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such a
>>controlled manner.
>
>It's not hard. Your mind (should) speed up to process
>emergencies like that, at least at an unconscious level.
>When I was test-riding the road bike that I later bought, I
>was going downhill doing probably 30 or 35 mph when a car
>pulled out of a sidestreet very fast; I braked so hard that
>the rear of the bike got very squirrely.
>
>I know the bike had more brake available, and I know I was
>panicked, but something deep in my usually slow-thinking*
>brain was up to the task of limiting my brake force when I
>felt the rear unweight.
>
>* Slow, but deep thought

I have a lot of that... ;-)

I think the ability to brake at the threshold is one that
you develop by doing it (it's a good idea to practice - you
don't want your first maximal braking stop to be one that is
necessary to keep you from having dental reconstructive
surgery). The more you do it, the more it becomes a kind of
"muscle memory" thing - you'll do it instinctively without
contemplating (slowly and deeply) the relative altitude of
your rear wheel. I'll regularly slide back off the saddle
and brake at the last possible moment at red lights or stop
signs to "keep the feeling fresh".

I've found that riding off-road (especially in steep
terrain) makes it easier to practice this skill. There was
one hill I would regularly lift my rear wheel on, setting
up for a tight corner. I never went into the corner
thinking "I think I'll lift my rear wheel", but just
learned to delay braking to the point that's what was
necessary to make the corner.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame

 

[G.T.]

"Vrishni Vibhuti" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote about
> skidding the front
wheel:
>
> > was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've
> > also done it on completely clean dry asphalt and on wet
> > smooth asphalt. Grabbing a
>
> You're lying.

Why is he lying? Just because you don't know how to get far
enough back on the bike to do it?

Greg

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

G. T. wrote:

> "Vrishni Vibhuti" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote about
>> skidding the front
> wheel:
>>
>>> was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've
>>> also done it on completely clean dry asphalt and on wet
>>> smooth asphalt. Grabbing a
>>
>> You're lying.
>
> Why is he lying? Just because you don't know how to get
> far enough back on the bike to do it?

I can't do it even with well loaded rear panniers, even
though this gives me a much lower centre of gravity than is
achievable by moving back off the saddle.

I don't think this means he was lying, though -- especially
since I know nothing about his bike. I just know that for
me, on any of my bikes, geometry rather than traction is
always the limiting factor on non-slippery surfaces.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

 

[A Muzi]

>>>"Peter" wrote: Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed
>>>gear riders can tell me how you stop your bikes in a
>>>panic situation without launching yourselves over the
>>>handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an
>>>illegal left hand turn onto a one way arterial road.

> In article <[email protected]>, Sheldon
> Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>>You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just
>>about lifts off. This is the shortest that you can stop
>>any bike of normal geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie. The
>>advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you
>>a better feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction
>>than you'll get with a coastie. That's the reason fixers
>>are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces. Sometimes
>>you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit.

Paul Southworth wrote:
> This is a good thing?? Sounds like a lot of risk when one
> can simply install a rear caliper. When braking you want
> maximum friction against the road. When the wheel lifts
> off, you get zero friction against the road, and the
> braking power of your feet on the cranks is likewise zero.
>
I think it _is_ a good thing. If you haven't lifted the rear
wheel a tad, you left some front brake capacity on the
table. At those decelerations, about the only thing you do
with the rear is skid.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971