Strength and cycling controversy

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by 11ring, Apr 22, 2006.

  1. mmerchant

    mmerchant New Member

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    want to add another rebuttal to the strength and cycling thread.
    there is an acronym that permeates the athletic community for ALL sports:

    SAID - specific adaptations to imposed demands

    basically - if you want to ride your bike farther and faster - then ride your bike farther and faster. if you want to squat 50kg thousands of times then squat 50kg thousands of times. there has been proven scientifically and empirically that strength training will do little for your cycling in comparison to cycling for your cycling.

    the force necessary to generate an FTP of 400 watts is quite small compared with the force necessary even to run - due to the efficiency of the bike. i can out perform fellow cyclists and endurance athletes in the gym but get my ass kicked when we go for a ride, simply because they can generate and sustain more watts than i can ON THE BIKE! this is due to the training to improve their aerobic engine (ability to sustain force/power for extended periods of time with minimal fatigue) by way of endurance, lactate, and vo2 training.

    because your legs are sore, or become painful while working at LT and above has to do with metabolic issues, not because of overall strength and muscular endurance (high rep work).

    Doing "strength" work on the bike is to improve your body's ability to work at lower rpm's for extended periods of time i.e. inappropriate gearing for the terrain you racing on - and i would venture to guess that the other coaches on this forum would agree that with all the gearing options out there, that time spent on this aspect of training should be kept to a minimum.

    use strength training for injury prevention - in other words to combat the muscular imbalances that arise when doing a rhythmic, steady state activity that holds the body in a fixed position and utilizes particular muscles groups to a greater extent than there antagonists.

    strength training is important for cycling but mainly in this manner!

    a smart training program will incorporate appropriate amounts of stimulus (riding in your different zones to produce adaptation) recovery (rest on and off the bike), recovery (sleep), recovery (flexibility, neuromuscular re-education ie strengh training), recovery, recovery, recovery! do you get my drift!

    mmerchant
     


  2. whoawhoa

    whoawhoa New Member

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    To me, the larger problem is 11ring thinking that the ability to repeat a small amount of force production repeatedly is tied to maximum force (strength).
     
  3. sugaken

    sugaken New Member

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    Yes, he said his so-called "fatigue limit" is a "function of strength", but I'm not so sure if his "strength" means the same as ours...
     
  4. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

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    Ride your bike. Ride your bike fast. Done.


    Let's stop trying to proclaim who is right or wrong. If you feel strength training makes you a faster rider, then by all means do it.

    It doesn't matter what is said on these message boards. The only thing that matters is who is faster on race day.
     
  5. K50

    K50 New Member

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    Wow. That is so wrong. Those two have absolutely no relation to eachother whatsoever. None. Regardless of who told you. I think if you REALLY want to know, you should take a biology or sports medicine type class...But really, there's no correlation between the two...

    That's why sprinters aren't endurance riders, and vice versa, and why a WWE wrestler isn't an endurance runner, and so on and so forth...
     
  6. frenchyge

    frenchyge New Member

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    So, what would the ability to repeat a certain point with increasing forcefulness be tied to? :rolleyes:

    Also, the "gyming to improve power" thread is not closed, as the OP stated, but rather stickied at the top of the forum for everyone's convenient access in discussing this topic.
     
  7. steve

    steve Administrator
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    Hi there

    Just had a quick look, it is closed and hasn't been posted to for almost 2 years.

    cheers
     
  8. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I like the side of the fence that I sit because I find these strength/cycling threads amusing.

    From a weightlifter's perspective I would be ridiculed by my fellow lifters for experimenting with endurance cycling which is like opposite worlds and I have drifted into some kind of alternate world. Lifters typically take the complete opposite viewpoints that are shared here. Why?

    Because endurance cycling is devastating to gaining muscular size or to gain in strength competitions.

    Now to what I find interesting from my own perspective as an avid weightlifter. If it were true that lifting was minimally beneficial to endurance cycling than my 20 years of extreme hardcore lifting would have given me an edge once I started cycling one would think. However, I recently had to change my 53/39 - 11/23 combination to a 12/27 cassette because I could not rely a sustained strength from my legs to pull some of the bigger hills on the group rides. Even on the last ride guess who were the ones pulling away from the pack once we hit the hills? The absolute skinniest, anorexic looking, 12" arms riders. :p (just kidding you skinny guys - you can poke fun at me if you see me struggling up the hills)

    Seriously though, I could put enough force on the pedals once to snap them off the crankset or damage my handle bars, but what good would that do? What I need to do is more cycling up hills and maybe someday I will be fit enough to pull those hills with the old 11/23 cassette.
     
  9. whoawhoa

    whoawhoa New Member

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    Stubborness? Definitely a good trait for a bike racer.:D
     
  10. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I'd vote for PowerCranks.
     
  11. whoawhoa

    whoawhoa New Member

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    Yeah, but don't PC users have a smooth, fluid style?:p
     
  12. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Yes, 40% smoother and more fluid, IIRC.
     
  13. frenchyge

    frenchyge New Member

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    My bad! Sorry. :eek:
     
  14. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

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    Ever think about track racing? You could use that kind of strength in a standing start.

    I've got the 12" arms, and everyone calls me skinny, but I consider myself a fairly good sprinter. My best abilities are whenever strength is required on the bike. I would like to see how you big guys would do if you trained for sprinting.
     
  15. netscriber

    netscriber New Member

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    Then please remind us why spend time here? Now dont give us the meaningless argument of "some things here do make sense" because that was a blanket statement.
     
  16. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

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    This topic has been beaten to death way too many times. Give it a rest.
     
  17. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

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    Okay, I actually read through this whole thread. Poor Ric has had to repeat himself once again, and yet, some still don't comprehend. And now I am going to have to go against my own advice above, and contribute.

    Here's my experience: In all my days of cycling/racing from age 14 till now, 7 years later and cat 2, I have NEVER come close to be limited by muscular STRENGTH in any endurance situation on the bike (> 1 min). Put a 30% grade in front of, and assuming it's long enough that I can't SPRINT it (> 30 secs), strength will be of little importance.

    PEOPLE: Cycling is an aerobic sport, which is limited by cardiovascular fitness and/or other metabolic energy systems. This means NOT strength/neuromuscular system.

    I started lifting weights a few years back because I was interested in improving my sprint. Guess what? It did nothing for my ECP.

    I want all you pro-cycling-strength advocates to tell me how lifting weights has improved your TT'ing and sustained climbing ability (ECP). You must have been at least moderately trained in cycling before weight training. I want to hear your answers.

    For those of you who will claim it has helped you to climb steep hills(> 1 min), then you must of had the strength of a fraile old lady ;) ric

    Do we hear about ANY of the pro roadies doing squats during the race season? Why is that?

    See, even I can't ignore this topic :rolleyes:


    Like I said before, if you want to become a faster rider, PLEASE RIDE YOUR BIKE! PEDAL!
     
  18. K50

    K50 New Member

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    Yup, but good ol Ric was a trooper though.
    Amen to that.

    I think your reply there sums up nicely about 10 ongoing threads in this site. Too bad it's such a waste of arguments.
     
  19. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

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    Yup.
    I can put out over 2k watts. Since I have good strength, does that mean I should be able to TT or climb well? I wish! I suck at climbing and TT'ing.
    There is no correlation.
     
  20. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I thought my sentiments coming from the weightlifting side would be even more convincing in previous posts.

    I am an advocate for training with weights and for the average person seeking fitness I still believe resistance training is good for overall balance to holistic fitness and good health. That is why I do both resistance training and cardio training.

    But I have yet to be convinced that my gains in the weight room has done anything beneficial as far as climbing hills or spinning fast on the bike. In fact the leaner and lighter I become the more efficient I have become on the bike and the weaker I have become under the weights. Which I am trying to let that era of bulking up for competition pass into just memories of glory under a heavy squat bar.

    velo, you pondered whether one of the big guys could be sprinters and my thoughts are I seriously doubt it. When I was at my off season bulked up weight I had trouble walking to the water fountain and by the way I actually competed as a lightweight so I wasn't one of the bigger freakier guys that one might imagine. I am only 5'6" and right now to the hardcore bodybuilding crowd I probably just look like a normal guy. There once was a day that I got stares when I was at 190+, but not anymore. Now I am down to 170 lbs still holding onto to as much lean mass as I can while doing this cycling thing. I still train with weights 5 days out of the week, but unlike most of you I don't have to worry about winning a race.
     
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