Strength Training Factors

Discussion in 'Triathlon' started by MJuric, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal weights for
    lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be .7-.9BW. Unfortunately,
    IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs I.E. Squats, Sled, step up etc. He
    does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves, triceps, shoulders etc. Also he does not
    go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at or how they effect ones performance. Does anyone
    have any links, books, articles etc that may more indepth deal with the subject and these factors?

    ~Matt
     
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  2. Rookie

    Rookie Guest

    MJuric wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal weights
    > for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be .7-.9BW.
    > Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs I.E. Squats,
    > Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves, triceps, shoulders
    > etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at or how they effect ones
    > performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that may more indepth deal with the
    > subject and these factors?
    >
    > ~Matt

    I think Joel Friel only lists goal weights for legs, seated row and pull downs because he believes
    these to be the core exercises which most benefit triathlon performance and other exercises should
    be performed using higher reps and lighter weights in the interests of having a balanced body and
    avoiding injury - e.g. ab and trunk work to protect the back. From what I can remember (reread the
    book quite recently) he feels that weight training should be pretty minimal unless you are a pro and
    have 3 sessions a day to play with or are particularly lacking in force.

    We have to train for 3 sports already, most of us have to fit a job in as well and sports
    specificity demands that training should be as close as possible to the actual sport. I guess that
    for most of us our limited time would be much better spent on the road or in the water than pumping
    iron. Personally I came from a rowing background where we did quite a lot of strength training and I
    was able to achieve the Friel goals straight away despite not having lifted weights for 18 months.
    Have found power endurance training to be useful but apart from that I have benefited a lot more
    from sports specific training - I have lost half a stone or so and my maximal strength is almost
    certainly less than it was when I started but I'm a lot quicker in the sports that matter!
     
  3. Tom Rodgers

    Tom Rodgers Guest

    MJuric wrote:
    > In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal
    > weights for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be
    > .7-.9BW. Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs
    > I.E. Squats, Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves,
    > triceps, shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at
    > or how they effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that
    > may more indepth deal with the subject and these factors?
    >
    > ~Matt
    Dear Matt:

    I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans. The
    really BIG MUSCLE exercises like squat, leg press, step up are listed as a proportion of body weight
    since this accurately reflects what this specific strength is meant to do--i.e., help you climb or
    accelerate compared to your body weight, move that mass effectively. For triathletes, this
    proportion is also important to avoid having legs that are too large for effective running. So even
    if you can lift 1.0-1.2 times bodyweight to help on the bike, it would hurt the run.

    As for other weight values, they are based on a the "one-rep maximum" or the amount of weight you
    can consistently lift one time when maxing out. It's not the same is a true champion weight-lifter
    or bodybuilding maximum where you taper, peak and psyche yourself up to lift a tremendous weight.
    For endurance athletes, it's the maximum amount we can lift on an average day if we just walk into
    the gym and try after some warmup. For the smaller muscle groups, those less involved in endurance
    motions, this is a good value. These smaller groups vary greatly between men, women and different
    body types, especially with endurance athletes who generally do not focus on them.

    Note that probably 80% of all of Joe's strength pariodization exercies are done way, way below these
    maximums of body-weight proportion or maximum lift capability. Only the maximums strength phase (one
    out of four to six phases) gets anywhere close to these. The builk of the work involves 15-30 reps
    at only 40-60% of these values, the exact figures varying at different points of the season.

    The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
    aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't have
    much to with the training. Even if you don't know the exact value, you can get a good idea of your
    "mass-strength zone" for the higher repititions, just like you can find your lactate threshold for
    multiple intervals.

    You can find the exact routines for various phases within all three sports (including
    specializations for cyclists, triathletes, duathletes, etc.) at www.trainingbible.com. Or email me
    directly at [email protected] or see my coaching web site at www.svi.net. I am currently working with
    many athletes to focus on their strength training through the winter, and I'll be focusing on that
    myself after racing Ultraman Hawaii this Thanksgiving.
     
  4. Tom Rodgers

    Tom Rodgers Guest

    MJuric wrote:
    > In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal
    > weights for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be
    > .7-.9BW. Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs
    > I.E. Squats, Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves,
    > triceps, shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at
    > or how they effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that
    > may more indepth deal with the subject and these factors?
    >
    > ~Matt
    Dear Matt:

    I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans. The
    really BIG MUSCLE exercises like squat, leg press, step up are listed as a proportion of body weight
    since this accurately reflects what this specific strength is meant to do--i.e., help you climb or
    accelerate compared to your body weight, move that mass effectively. For triathletes, this
    proportion is also important to avoid having legs that are too large for effective running. So even
    if you can lift 1.0-1.2 times bodyweight to help on the bike, it would hurt the run.

    As for other weight values, they are based on a the "one-rep maximum" or the amount of weight you
    can consistently lift one time when maxing out. It's not the same is a true champion weight-lifter
    or bodybuilding maximum where you taper, peak and psyche yourself up to lift a tremendous weight.
    For endurance athletes, it's the maximum amount we can lift on an average day if we just walk into
    the gym and try after some warmup. For the smaller muscle groups, those less involved in endurance
    motions, this is a good value. These smaller groups vary greatly between men, women and different
    body types, especially with endurance athletes who generally do not focus on them.

    Note that probably 80% of all of Joe's strength pariodization exercies are done way, way below these
    maximums of body-weight proportion or maximum lift capability. Only the maximums strength phase (one
    out of four to six phases) gets anywhere close to these. The builk of the work involves 15-30 reps
    at only 40-60% of these values, the exact figures varying at different points of the season.

    The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
    aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't have
    much to with the training. Even if you don't know the exact value, you can get a good idea of your
    "mass-strength zone" for the higher repititions, just like you can find your lactate threshold for
    multiple intervals.

    You can find the exact routines for various phases within all three sports (including
    specializations for cyclists, triathletes, duathletes, etc.) at www.trainingbible.com. Or email me
    directly at [email protected] or see my coaching web site at www.svi.net. I am currently working with
    many athletes to focus on their strength training through the winter, and I'll be focusing on that
    myself after racing Ultraman Hawaii this Thanksgiving.

    Regards,

    Tom Rodgers
     
  5. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On 21 Oct 2003 08:35:11 -0700, [email protected] (rookie) wrote:

    >MJuric wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >> In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal weights
    >> for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be .7-.9BW.
    >> Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs I.E. Squats,
    >> Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves, triceps,
    >> shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at or how they
    >> effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that may more indepth
    >> deal with the subject and these factors?
    >>
    >> ~Matt
    >
    >I think Joel Friel only lists goal weights for legs, seated row and pull downs because he believes
    >these to be the core exercises which most benefit triathlon performance and other exercises should
    >be performed using higher reps and lighter weights in the interests of having a balanced body and
    >avoiding injury - e.g. ab and trunk work to protect the back. From what I can remember (reread the
    >book quite recently) he feels that weight training should be pretty minimal unless you are a pro
    >and have 3 sessions a day to play with or are particularly lacking in force.

    Thats me. El Woosy legs. Although it's been awhile since I've read the entire book, I don't
    seem to remember getting the same impression about strength training. I seemed to think he
    was a proponenet of weight training. Not to the extent of interfering with a training
    session due to time limitations but non the less recommended it, particularly as one ages.

    >
    >We have to train for 3 sports already, most of us have to fit a job in as well and sports
    >specificity demands that training should be as close as possible to the actual sport. I guess that
    >for most of us our limited time would be much better spent on the road or in the water than pumping
    >iron. Personally I came from a rowing background where we did quite a lot of strength training and
    >I was able to achieve the Friel goals straight away despite not having lifted weights for 18
    >months. Have found power endurance training to be useful but apart from that I have benefited a lot
    >more from sports specific training - I have lost half a stone or so and my maximal strength is
    >almost certainly less than it was when I started but I'm a lot quicker in the sports that matter!

    For the most part my strength training comes via sports specific training. In the off season
    I like to spend a bit more time in the weight room. Since I definately lack in leg strength
    and am well below Friels reccommended goals I feel I can make some gains here. I also like
    to do all around strength training through out the year as I've found it seems to help in
    several other areas as well. Before I tried to shoot for Friels goals however I was
    wondering about the "science" behind the factors and how they were arrived at.

    ~Matt
     
  6. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Tom Rodgers" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans.

    (snip)

    > The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
    > aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
    > have much to with the training.
     
  7. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:16:23 GMT, Tom Rodgers <[email protected]> wrote:

    >MJuric wrote:
    >> In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal
    >> weights for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be
    >> .7-.9BW. Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs
    >> I.E. Squats, Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves,
    >> triceps, shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at
    >> or how they effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that
    >> may more indepth deal with the subject and these factors?
    >>
    >> ~Matt
    >Dear Matt:
    >
    >I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans. The
    >really BIG MUSCLE exercises like squat, leg press, step up are listed as a proportion of body
    >weight since this accurately reflects what this specific strength is meant to do--i.e., help you
    >climb or accelerate compared to your body weight, move that mass effectively. For triathletes, this
    >proportion is also important to avoid having legs that are too large for effective running. So even
    >if you can lift 1.0-1.2 times bodyweight to help on the bike, it would hurt the run.

    Yes I wondered about this. It would seem to me, maybe falsely so, that additional
    strength as long as it could be converted into usefull endurance strength would be
    helpfull in any case. I suspected that the numbers were based on some balance between the
    disciplines though.

    >
    >As for other weight values, they are based on a the "one-rep maximum" or the amount of weight you
    >can consistently lift one time when maxing out. It's not the same is a true champion weight-lifter
    >or bodybuilding maximum where you taper, peak and psyche yourself up to lift a tremendous weight.
    >For endurance athletes, it's the maximum amount we can lift on an average day if we just walk into
    >the gym and try after some warmup. For the smaller muscle groups, those less involved in endurance
    >motions, this is a good value. These smaller groups vary greatly between men, women and different
    >body types, especially with endurance athletes who generally do not focus on them.

    About the other weights, the only reccomondations I saw in TTB, other than legs, was lat
    pull downs. Are there no recommendatations for the "swimming groups"

    >
    >Note that probably 80% of all of Joe's strength pariodization exercies are done way, way below
    >these maximums of body-weight proportion or maximum lift capability. Only the maximums strength
    >phase (one out of four to six phases) gets anywhere close to these. The builk of the work
    >involves 15-30 reps at only 40-60% of these values, the exact figures varying at different points
    >of the season.

    Yes I noticed this. For me I look at the MS phase, as the "Base" phase of strength training.

    >
    >The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
    >aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
    >have much to with the training. Even if you don't know the exact value, you can get a good idea of
    >your "mass-strength zone" for the higher repititions, just like you can find your lactate threshold
    >for multiple intervals.

    I guess I somewhat disagree here. Seems that MAX HR is a barrier with little meaning or
    effect on training. Supposedly Max HR cannot be affected by training. However we can move
    other training barriers up the scale, such as LT etc. In the case of Max weight, it may be a
    barrier similar to Max HR in the sense that we will never reach it in an endurance event,
    but we can effect it by training. If we can not only move the max up and move the percentage
    of max up, it seems to me that we would a duplicitas positive effect. I.E. (Using mean
    nothing numbers) if we can produce 100 watts at present and our max lift is 200 lbs then the
    100 watts is a 50% factor of max weight. We can go out and do endurance training and raise
    that wattage to 125 with the same max weight and end up with a 62% factor. Now if we did
    both the endurance and the strsngth training moving the factor to 62% adn max lift to 250 we
    would produce 156 watts. Of course the above is simply how I "Think" it would work and it is
    entirely possible that it is not possible to do the above scenario for some physiological
    reason I am unware of.

    >
    >You can find the exact routines for various phases within all three sports (including
    >specializations for cyclists, triathletes, duathletes, etc.) at www.trainingbible.com. Or email me
    >directly at [email protected] or see my coaching web site at www.svi.net. I am currently working with
    >many athletes to focus on their strength training through the winter, and I'll be focusing on that
    >myself after racing Ultraman Hawaii this Thanksgiving.
    >

    I have the book, but I'll check out the site to see if it's different.

    ~Matt
     
  8. Tom Rodgers

    Tom Rodgers Guest

    Andy Coggan wrote:

    > "Tom Rodgers" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    >>I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans.
    >
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    >
    >>The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
    >>aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
    >>have much to with the training.
    >
    >
    >
    Seems your response was truncated. I would appreciate hearing from a respected source such
    as yourself.
     
  9. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:48:07 GMT, "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Tom Rodgers" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >> I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans.
    >
    >(snip)
    >
    >> The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
    >> aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
    >> have much to with the training.
    >
    >
    Could you look at my reply to Tom's post and see if I'm completely off my rocker? The patr
    about teh relationship of Max lift to power output.

    ~Matt
     
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