strenth vs. endurance..... have to choose ? How much to Eat ?

Discussion in 'Health Nutrition and Supplements' started by Adam-from-SLO, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. Adam-from-SLO

    Adam-from-SLO New Member

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    Hello all,

    I consider myself more so a endurance cyclist. I am 5' 11" , and 151 lbs (much of which is lean muscle mass..... bones, tendons,).

    I am wondering if it is possible... at my age= 29.5 ...... to add on additional weight, in the form of Lean Muscle Mass(not sure how fast I can even put on 1 lb. of this) , yet still maintain my moderate- to high level of endurance fintness.

    I mean, in order to put on even lean muscle... one must EAT Big + have a solid daily regiman of either working out(weights or riding)... or having a day off. Even with a day off, my body burns food like its going out of style.

    In a typical week, I commute to work about 25 miles( and I work 40.. maybe more hours per week- 10 hour days) .... and I ride on the weekends about 60 miles.

    Seems like what would be best is if I mix in some weight work ... 1 or 2 days a week, eat big the day/night before riding 25+ miles (for my glycogen stores)..... and rest as much as possible.

    I do eat WELL..... I have my own gourmet chef, on call 24/7.... so food- well cooked, quality HIGH protien food is not an issue. Nor is getting 7+ hours of sleep per night.

    In other words, what I am asking here is ... is it possible to put on 5-7 lbs. of lean Muscle....... even though I think my body is programed for Endurance excersice.... and thus burning food= fuel 24/7.... probably even at rest..... just to recoupe any lost/deficent energy stores in my body ...... ???????????

    Any help would be appreciated ;)
     
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  2. acael

    acael New Member

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    Some thing that worked to me was the pre-season work. Weight lifting convined with high protein diet suplement. Also did some Uphill running. The result I´ve gained about 5 lbs.
    As the season aproaches, do some distance in low gears to bring back the speed.
    In my perspective is easer to earn speed that strenght, so my advise is to focus 60 to 70 % of the time of your pre-season trainning in strengh.
     
  3. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Hmmm, this seems to be a really common question on the forum.

    The answer to your question is an easy one. You basically need to do high-rep squats, once you have done a little conditioning. High rep squats put muscular weight on the thighs and buttocks, while also promotong weight gain around the whole body. There is no other comparable exercise but squats are hard. Don't do the following program till you have gotten used to the exercise and built up your stamina first:

    Stand before a mirror and load the weight with something you can handle for 20 reps. Step back and place the bar on your shoulders, slightly low down on the traps. Keep you head up and squat right down but on no account bounce as you come back up again. Keep your back straight as your frame allows without pressuring your spine. Breathe deeply and repeat the movement. Stop if you feel overly nauseous. I repeat, don't do any high rep work, though, till you have gotten used to the exercise and done some preliminary work.

    Make sure you have at least 2 free days a week off training and eat quality food, meat, dairy and veg. This program should allow you to gain 5 - 7 lbs easily. You should do these squats every 4 - 5 days. Your legs will feel sore if you haven't squatted before. It's better to cycle before you squat rather than after.

    I started squatting as a kid when I was teased at school for being too skinny to do sports. I put piles of weight on within 8 months time and swear by this system. Just make sure you work your way up and don't injure your back or knees. Some people need to place a small, thin board under their heels in order to keep balance.

    High reps are for weight-gain while low reps build strength.



     
  4. Adam-from-SLO

    Adam-from-SLO New Member

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    Thanks for the input guys. Looks like I'm going to have to join a gym ..... , and eat a bit more(like I dont already eat enough...)

    ;)
     
  5. Chemicalanarchy

    Chemicalanarchy New Member

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    You don't have to 'eat more' per se, but you have to eat more protein.
     
  6. Adam-from-SLO

    Adam-from-SLO New Member

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    Exactly.... more protien. What kind of protien..., chicken, turkey, red meat, whey , soy, etc. ????????????

    Want to break it down even more, I'll start another thread asking about proper times to eat, for maximum calorie/protien absorption....:)
     
  7. Chemicalanarchy

    Chemicalanarchy New Member

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    You need roughly 25 grams before, another during if a long ride and 25-50grams whey protein after.

    Maybe another 25 before bed.

    YOu can get by on relatively little protein if you know when and how to do it and use the right sources.
     
  8. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    For weight gain, you need to squat, not burn out with too much activity and eat well.
    Protein is for muscle repair but carbs are essential. If you eat excessive protein at the expense of carbs (Atkins trend), this isn't such a good idea. Some bodybuilders cut carbs and only eat protein when they want to gain definition but those natural athletes who aren't using steroids tend to lose muscle in the process.
    I would personally never cut down on my carbs where sports are concerned due to past trials and errors. I see no reason why hard-training cyclists should need to worry about carbs if the come from bananas, potatoes, pasta e.t.c. However, it's best to eat you carbs in the morning and emphasise protein at nights or evenings. If you eat excessive protein, though, it will go straight through your system. You can calculate protein needs via bodyweight.


     
  9. Adam-from-SLO

    Adam-from-SLO New Member

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    Thanks Carrera !!!

    Now thats some Bread + Butter there Folks !!! What you said about eating Carbs in the morning....., and focusing on Protein by Mid-day... and evening......, but not too much ... makes total sense to me. That is how my body , for the most part operates as well. ... ;) :)
     
  10. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    The idea behind this is that most people are more active by day than by night. Daily activity burns up carbohydrates so if you eat a reasonable amount of carbs during breakfast and dinner, you'll burn much of this up when you hit your bike. We all need our carbs to be honest as they are an essential part of our diet.
    However, when you eat protein by night, you're not as active but it's tough to get fat on protein - which is why Atkins capitalised on this system. If you snack on tuna fish or meat in the evening you should also be able to relax in front of the T.V.
    There has been some experimentation with cycling carbs and protein. I have heard of some folks who tried eating only protein on one day and carbs on the following day. One person who tried this was former film star Steve Reeves who is very much into cycling and fitness, if I remember correctly.
    However, you should be quite safe following a carbs-by-day, protein-by-night system, give or take a few indulgences.
    There are athletes who stick to a purely low carb diet but I don't feel it works for me and I feel I have far more energy when I eat potatoes, rice, pasta and brown bread by day.


     
  11. Chemicalanarchy

    Chemicalanarchy New Member

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    Got any proof anywhere at anytime of this?

    You lose muscle on protein?

    ' Some bodybuilders cut carbs and only eat protein when they want to gain definition but those natural athletes who aren't using steroids tend to lose muscle in the process. '
     
  12. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Sure, I found that to be the case. I find that high protein alone doesn't suit me and I'm also more prone to injury if I go too low on carbs. Carbs give me more energy but I also make sure I try and get sufficient protein.
    Bodybuilders always used to go on high protein in order to cut up and lose fat but they would inevitably lose some muscle with the fat. Lots of people also lose some strength and muscular size due to aerobic work (even guys such as Schwarzennegger who competed at a far lower weight 230 lbs.) Schwarzennegger did lots of running and swimming as well as weights and I read in his biography that he used to cycle almost 2 hours to the gym and back as a kid, since it was located way outside the town where he lived.



     
  13. Chemicalanarchy

    Chemicalanarchy New Member

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    BB'rs lose muscle because they are cutting calories and dieting down. NOT because they are taking protein over carbs.

    Give us more credit than that.
     
  14. Pimpanolie

    Pimpanolie New Member

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    Wow we are almost twins! Well except for the 24/7 gourmet chef, how did you manage that?

    I to am 5'11'' 150 lbs and will turn 30 in May. I can not gain weight no matter how much I eat but at this stage I don't really care. More concerned with my aerobic and anaerobic conditioning to compete in cycling and tri's.

    But back in my college days I worked out 5-6 times a week for the sole purpose of gaining weight and looking like a greek statue. After about 2.5 years of heavy weight training and eating like a maniac, mostly a high protien high carb diet and very little fat, I was able to get up to 165lbs with 5% body fat. This was all accomplish with no cardio work at all pure weight training. I was very happy with the way I looked at this point.

    After college and I entered the real world I didn't have the time to continue on this path and stopped weight training completely. After about 6 months I was back to 150 still pretty ripped but definitely a lot smaller. People like us need to eat a ton, I was eating 5000-6000 calories a day, and train very hard to put on muscle mass. So if you want to continue cycling and gain muscle mass strap on the feedbag!!!
     
  15. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    In my own case I find I gain weight when my metabolism slows down. The more weights I do, the less I need to eat to gain weight and the more I have to avoid certain foods for fear of putting on fat. Basically, weights slow down my metabolism.
    Soon as I change to aerobic work on the bike, the opposite happens. Usually after 3 months of constant cycling my metabolism kicks into fast mode. My trousers start hanging so I have to wear a belt, I can eat all the junk food I want and stay slim and, if anything, weight loss becomes too excessive.
    Just out of interest, I once trained in a Russian gym and noticed that there were one or two guys who were really strong but also very big. I mean, they had large waists and enormous butts due to squats e.t.c.
    There was another guy who was really athletic, small waist, broad shoulders and looked terrific. The amazing thing was that the smaller, muscular guy was the strongest in the gym by a huge margin. I found it odd that only this latter guy was able to gain terrific strength without accumulating any fat at all. That is, he could probably ride a road-bike or swim without losing face but the two other guys probably couldn't even cycle round the block.
    It's usual to encounter very strong guys who are equally big but it's very unusual to meet a small, athletic guy whose strength has gone through the roof without all the baggage. That is, you can normally tell what sport somebody does by his (or he) physical appearance but there are cases where you find exceptions.
    As I recall this guy ate plenty of carbs as well and I heard of another big guy who had a 28 inch waist but consumed pizza and doughnuts. Strange isn't it?





     
  16. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    By FAR the strongest factor in all of this is genetics. Some win, some lose. Carrera, you clearly are a winner if gaining muscle mass is the game. Most are losers by that measure. Gaining muscle is very hard work, and close to impossible for many.

    All that said, maximize your chances by doing exactly what Carrera suggests above. SQUAT 20 reps. Toss in a few other things like deadlifts*, some form of press, and some form of rowing or chinning/pullups, done for 8-12 reps. That's all you need aside from abs and calves (if you care about calves, that is). If you struggle to gain, make sure you aren't overdoing the lifting volume. One or two hard work sets after enough warmup should be all you need. Way too many think that because they aren't gaining, that must mean they need to do more. I'd bet that's the reverse of what's needed in most cases.

    Count on needing to gain a lot of strength if you want added muscle. If you can squat 135x20 now, when you get to 225x20 you should be on your way to seeing some real improvement.

    A big excess of protein is a waste. You can only use what you need. Any more just gets burned as fuel rather than for constructing muscle. Protein is expensive, so don't bother overdoing it.

    I should speak to my credential here in the interest of disclosure. I was (am) one of those thin dudes. 38 yrs, 5-10, 160 lbs, reasonably lean. I would weigh 145 if I didn't, or hadn't, lifted. The proof is in my skinny calves, forearms, and neck -- the telltale areas that are so hard to grow. Until a few years ago when I injured an already "iffy" back, I squatted and deadlifted. That's where the results were. Now I avoid that, and worked up to dips with +100lbsx7 reps, chins with +55lbsx3. Returning to cycling 10 months ago returned those lifts to lower levels! The important point here is that I (and most others) gain(ed) very slowly. Once you've been lifting for say 3 months, adding a pound or two to the bar every month is decent progress -- building muscle past the age of 20 is a slow, deliberate process of microprogressing.

    * Get professional instruction, from a quality source, not the dingbat trainers in a commercial gym. Try Stuart McRobert's book titles something like "The Insider's Tell All Handbook to Weight Training". He has written 4 books, all are outstanding (the best, actually).
     
  17. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Thanks for the positive comments and post.
    It might surprise you but I have very poor genetics for weight-training so it took a long time to gain a degree of natural strength and develop a normal physique. Some bodybuilders are lucky since they can do lots of work on the road-bike and hold on to their muscle size in the gym as well.
    However, in my case, if I do too much cycling (or even too much weights) I tend to drop too much bodyweight (for my own particular preference) and overtrain easily. I'm basically an ectomorph and have very little in the way of mesomorphic genes that are so common to natural athletes.
    Let's not forget, though, that when we know how to train specifically for our purposes, we'll all all make progress. Knowledge is fundamental. Persistance is also very important.
    With regard to weight-training, guys in my own area make the mistake of using too many machines and not doing squats (since they're hard work). Plus they talk all the time and don't train intensely. Or they make the mistake of doing isolation movements and wasting too much energy on little muscles. Hard work, on the other hand, always pays.
    Weight-training and cycling are two different sports but if a cyclist feels he (or she) would feel better with a few extra pounds, as a recreational bodybuilder I guess I can offer some reasonable advice. However, when it comes to increasing fitness or hill-climbing skills, I'm basically a beginner and am hoping I'll learn something as well.

















     
  18. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    I'm not sold on your 'poor' genetics. Almost everyone struggles to gain at all. Only the very young and/or gifted have a relatively easy time of it.

    It's funny -- I rarely come across anyone who thinks they have even average genetics. It's kind of like how everyone thinks they are an above-average driver, just opposite of that! I KNOW I have poor genetics!
     
  19. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    It's hard to qualify what "bad genetics" is, I guess. If you compared Arnold Scwharzennegger to Lance Armstrong, you could probably conclude that Lance has poor genetics for bodybuilding while Arnold would never win the tour de France. In reality, both guys have excellent genetics but they are just tailored to different activities.
    Therefore, it might not be the case you have poor genetics at all simply because you might be on the thin side. You need to take your endurance levels and physical fitness into account as well.
    You're correct, I think, when you say that most people have a hard time gaining muscle (unless they resort to anabolics).
    Having said that, it's very rare I ever see anybody who knows how to train correctly in gyms around the U.K. The squat rack is usually always left free while there are queues for machines and people simply avoid the really big exercises.
    Have you also noticed how many people opt to use stationary bikes instead of getting on a real bike and "kicking ass" as Armstrong likes to say.


     
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