Stretching is counter productive?

[biker-linz]

BikerLinz, I must be completely opposite from normal people, then again every coach I've had for track&field has told me to stretch. Regarding increased risk of injury from stretching, I would like to ask if the participants stretched properly.

Yes they did (stretch 'properly'), at least when it was supervised. The thing is, it has become so ingrained in myth that stretching is good for you, but the jury is very much out. There is as much evidence aganst it (a little more I would say) than for it.

When I first started lifting heavy (like doing heavy deadlifts) I didn't stretch before and didn't do a warmup <snip> After introducing warmups and stretching, I experienced far less soreness and was able to lift more weight (and more often)..

What you describe is a common mistake (even made by early researchers) where the potentially helpful effects of warming-up mask the negative or negligible effects of stretching.

This also increased my vertical jump and decreased a 60 meter dash time. Any 100 m dash athlete would tell you you're nuts if you told them stretching before a dash REDUCES their power during the dash. I don't see see any significant difference between that and sprint cycling.

It reduces strength, not power. There is a lot of evidence which supports this, not just the paper I quoted, but also:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15377965

From the conclusion: "An acute bout of stretching does not improve force or jump height, and the results for running speed are contradictory. Regular stretching improves force, jump height, and speed, although there is no evidence that it improves running economy." (In spite of Shrier's comments about economy there are at least two independent studies which show that increased flexibility of the hamstrings actually reduces economy in runners, although this has nothng whatever to do with cyclists. I just quote these papers to make the point that stretching is certainly not the all-beneficial practice we have been led to believe.)

None of those other factors (force, jump height, speed) are really of importance to endurance cyclists. Like I said before, track cyclists are a different matter. All the same, for sprint cyclists stretching before a race is probably a very bad idea, whether they think it is or not.
To support this, from the paper I cited earlier (Sale et al.) maximum voluntary contraction (a measure of strength) was reduced by 28% 5 minutes after an acute bout of stretching. This is in complete agreement with what Shrier found regarding force and jump height etc.

L.

 

[bikeguy]

Biker-Linz, I think you omitted something.

<snip> from my own post:

I experimented at times, not stretching before doing DL's, and then stretching before (primarily my hamstrings, 90 sec static)
while of course doing a warmup.

Did you miss that part? Only one variable was changed, stretching or not stretching.

In my case, N=1 unfortunately, but stretching did increase my DL weight. In case you say something like not in trained subjects or not in elite subjects (as Ric Stern would fondly say), I would point out that I had trained heavy deadlifts for 6 years and that I was approaching 240 kg at 76-80 kg bodyweight without drugs or any stimulants, so it wasn't chump change.

<snip> Biker-Linz said: "Yes they did (stretch 'properly'), at least when it was supervised"

But they weren't some of the time, so there is a potential flaw in the study.

<snip> from Biker-Linz's post: "The thing is, it has become so ingrained in myth that stretching is good for you"

ingrained? I don't know, I barely saw any people doing any stretching before doing their lifting in the university gym I went to for years. Perhaps they agreed with you? Or perhaps they didn't have have any opinion on the subject (most likely).


It was ingrained into my coaches at the University of Toronto, one who was a national level coach and produced some good high jumpers (2.20 m) and top Canadian female 60/100 m dash athletes (although not competitive on an international level). Unfortunately, I didn't follow his advice. He said 10-20 minutes every day. I did it about twice a week. Wouldn't have made much difference though, I was never made to be a sprinter, or any kind of runner.
Stretching was done about 5-10 minutes prior to an event.

<snip> biker-linz said: "I just quote these papers to make the point that stretching is certainly not the all-beneficial practice we have been led to believe.)"

By all means quote the papers, I am interested in reading them. I certainly don't think stretching is beneficial for everything. In particular, if you've injured a muscle, stretching is no good (immediately following).

-Bikeguy

 

[wilmar13]

The key word is 'acute'. Immediately after stretching there is a loss of strength *however* regular stretching (ie at other times) *may* slightly enhance strength.

L.

Ahh OK that makes sense.

 

[biker-linz]

Did you miss that part? Only one variable was changed, stretching or not stretching.

Oh, OK.

In my case, N=1 unfortunately, but stretching did increase my DL weight. In case you say something like not in trained subjects or not in elite subjects (as Ric Stern would fondly say), I would point out that I had trained heavy deadlifts for 6 years and that I was approaching 240 kg at 76-80 kg bodyweight without drugs or any stimulants, so it wasn't chump change.

I'm afraid I would just say n=1 and no controls, but I completely understand where you're coming from. If it works for you, rock on!

<snip> Biker-Linz said: "Yes they did (stretch 'properly'), at least when it was supervised"

But they weren't some of the time, so there is a potential flaw in the study..

More than one study. The one where stretching was not supervised was a large-scale epidemiological study (the Lally paper rather bizarrely quoted by Joe Friel). I would argue that the paper is not flawed at all, rather it suggests that people, left to their own devices, might be more likely to become injured if they stretch. If you read the article on my website (or I could send it to you) there are quite a few references, all varying in nature and nearly all suggesting the same thing.

<snip> from Biker-Linz's post: "The thing is, it has become so ingrained in myth that stretching is good for you"

ingrained? I don't know, I barely saw any people doing any stretching before doing their lifting in the university gym I went to for years. Perhaps they agreed with you? Or perhaps they didn't have have any opinion on the subject (most likely).

Most people I meet assume that stretching is good for you, but my experience may be different to yours.

By all means quote the papers, I am interested in reading them. I certainly don't think stretching is beneficial for everything. In particular, if you've injured a muscle, stretching is no good (immediately following).

-Bikeguy

I'm afraid I come from a background where evidence needs to be carefully scrutinised before it's accepted (and hopefully no-one speaks in absolutes), but I completely understand people who choose not to think this way. As long as what you do is working for you then I respect that.

L.

 

[bikeguy]

Biker-Linz, the study you linked to:

Reduced strength after passive stretch of the human plantarflexors
J. R. Fowles, D. G. Sale, and J. D. MacDougall

The subjects performed 13 consecutive repetitions of 135 seconds within 33 minutes! Too much!! Plantar flexors? An odd group to test. Bad study. next.

You don't seriously think that 1735 seconds of stretching for one muscle is a normal way to stretch before an event?? I would be tired too.

-Bikeguy

 

[biker-linz]

Biker-Linz, the study you linked to:

Reduced strength after passive stretch of the human plantarflexors
J. R. Fowles, D. G. Sale, and J. D. MacDougall

The subjects performed 13 consecutive repetitions of 135 seconds within 33 minutes! Too much!! Plantar flexors? An odd group to test. Bad study. next.

Not a bad study. Many musclular studies are performed using even finger muscles, the physiology is identical. I take your point about the protocol, but why would you be tired? As in many cases an extreme was probably used in order to amplify the effect. However, as I stated in my previous post this is only one study of many. If you read the references cited in my article you will find plenty more. Like I said, the jury is still out and I try not to speak in absolutes.
You'll have to forgive me but I'm incredibly busy at the moment so I'll have to draw a line under my contribution to this debate. Pretty much everything I have to say on the subject is in the article I mentioned anyway.

All the best,

Lindsay.

 

[bikeguy]

Biker-Linz,

After reviewing Pub-Med and doing a google search on the effect of pre-exercise stretching on muscle strength, I agree that most studies show a drop in peak torque/MVC after stretching or show no effect. In fact, I could find just 1 that said it increased it. The studies support your conclusion. In my case, it is the opposite, perhaps because my range of motion is quite limited has something to do with it, I don't know.

-Bikeguy

 

[ric_stern/RST]

A quick round of thanks to Linds for taking time out of his busy schedule to give some good info on stretching.

Now, get back to work and find some more questions for me

ric

 

[Felt_Rider]

IMO - there seems to be a time and place for stretching, but I do agree that stretching can cause an injury. In that respect that is counter productive if one is set on weeks of rehab for injury recovery.

Case in point.

I have had five micro tears/strains in the past six years. The last strain occurred while doing bar squats with 315 lbs. At first I thought the tear occurred from the actual lift, but as I retraced my steps I remembered that the night before I was trying to relieve some tightness in my medialis for my leg workout the next morning. It is my belief that I over stretched a cold muscle causing a micro tear the night before and that was a setup for the strain the next morning. The result was 4 - 6 weeks of rehab for each of these strains and each had dark bruising so the strain was significant.

Trying to figure out why these tears/strains kept occuring I began to study more and began to throw out the age old idea of stretching. The problem is that I was too forceful in the stretch causing the fibers to become weakened and prone to a full strain. Going from a micro tear in which a person may not even know it occurred to a full strain in which you will have a tearing sensation of the fibers and weeks of rehab to recover.

Tears/strains have a ranking in degree.


http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/back/hamstrings/hamstringstrain.htm

Oddly during the rehab I had to do some light stretching.


http://www.emoryhealthcare.org/departments/sports/sub_menu/pulled_quadriceps.html
http://www.emoryhealthcare.org/departments/sports/sub_menu/pulled_quadriceps.html
http://www.nismat.org/ptcor/ham/index.html

 

[sparknote_s]

So what if you do a short 5-10 minute jog (or spinning) before stretching, to get your muscles warm. Then do your workout. Then stretch afterwards as well?

No harm in this that I see.

 

[kennf]

So what if you do a short 5-10 minute jog (or spinning) before stretching, to get your muscles warm. Then do your workout. Then stretch afterwards as well?

No harm in this that I see.

I think even the strong opponents of stretching agree that you shouldn't stretch "cold." I stretch before a workout just because it feels good, particularly in loosening up my lower back. But I always do 5-10 minutes of light aerobic stuff beforehand to get the blood flowing.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I think even the strong opponents of stretching agree that you shouldn't stretch "cold." I stretch before a workout just because it feels good, particularly in loosening up my lower back. But I always do 5-10 minutes of light aerobic stuff beforehand to get the blood flowing.

Also be careful toward forceful stretching and bouncing.
Those are No No's

 

[2zanzibar]

I think even the strong opponents of stretching agree that you shouldn't stretch "cold." I stretch before a workout just because it feels good, particularly in loosening up my lower back. But I always do 5-10 minutes of light aerobic stuff beforehand to get the blood flowing.

I think most of this discussion has been biased towards the qualitative effects of stretching on injury-free performance levels (as loss or gain, and loss seems to be the juries verdict), which probably makes a lot of sense, perhaps in the same way that during Archery competition, archers won't get shoulder massages as this upsets the specific coordination that the muscle groups have developed to function within. (My massage therapist told me this one)

In terms of existing injury though, surely stretching is essential? Its a given that stretching cold is a no no, but after 30 mins on a ride and I haven't stretched yet then I start to feel the tendons clamp around my Pes Anserine Bursa, and if I dont stretch soon then pain starts to creep in fast, likewise with patellafemoral issues, all the major muscle groups from hip flexors down need to be worked on otherwise post ride - regardless of post ride stretching - its regrettable. I guess the trick is to know what works for you, for me its 20 mins warm up - off the bike for stretch routine - then I'm pretty much OK for the ride - then stretch afterwards

Pretty much all literature on sports injuries will posit stretching as an integral element in any pain management program and for eventual rehabilitation and prevention

 

[king4wd]

The injuries referred to seem to be muscle stress type and I would defer to the experts in those cases. However, speaking as a MTBer, I believe that stretching can help prevent injury in the event of a crash. Crashing is much more frequent off-road than on, and being more flexible helps avoid injury during a fall.

 

[Matt N]

Thanks everyone for the interesting and informative discussion.

I had always understood stretching (before and after a ride) to be beneficial. However, a couple of years ago I developed a persistent hip/muscular problem which would not go away. Long story short - I did some research, found a great book on trigger point therapy (by Clair Davies (funny name for a guy)) and resolved the problem myself. Mr Davies says in his book that stretching can actually exacerbate a muscular problem - the best way to treat it is by resolving the knot in the muscle, which may be in a different location to the actual pain. Since then, I have stopped stretching altogether.

Anyway, in my experience I have moved away from stretching and I use Mr Davies' book for any muscular problems (including back and neck problems). I am usually a sceptic when it comes to "new" methods, but his book has worked wonders for me!

On a different but related point, I am also sceptical about the benefits of massage. Although I enjoy a general "feel good" massage, I have found it to be of little or no benefit in terms of muscle recovery and maintenance. Again, I have found (through my own experience) that trigger point therapy, combined with a proper warm up and warm down on the bike (just light spinning for 5-10 minutes at the beginning and end of my ride) to provide all the muscle protection and injury prevention I need.

Cheers

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Thanks everyone for the interesting and informative discussion.

I had always understood stretching (before and after a ride) to be beneficial. However, a couple of years ago I developed a persistent hip/muscular problem which would not go away. Long story short - I did some research, found a great book on trigger point therapy (by Clair Davies (funny name for a guy)) and resolved the problem myself. Mr Davies says in his book that stretching can actually exacerbate a muscular problem - the best way to treat it is by resolving the knot in the muscle, which may be in a different location to the actual pain. Since then, I have stopped stretching altogether.

Anyway, in my experience I have moved away from stretching and I use Mr Davies' book for any muscular problems (including back and neck problems). I am usually a sceptic when it comes to "new" methods, but his book has worked wonders for me!

On a different but related point, I am also sceptical about the benefits of massage. Although I enjoy a general "feel good" massage, I have found it to be of little or no benefit in terms of muscle recovery and maintenance. Again, I have found (through my own experience) that trigger point therapy, combined with a proper warm up and warm down on the bike (just light spinning for 5-10 minutes at the beginning and end of my ride) to provide all the muscle protection and injury prevention I need.

Cheers

i believe the evidence for massage is similar to stretching, i.e., it doesn't do much post exercise in terms of (e.g.) muscle recovery.

 

[biker-linz]

i believe the evidence for massage is similar to stretching, i.e., it doesn't do much post exercise in terms of (e.g.) muscle recovery.

I just happened to be passing.....
The evidence on massage is unclear at best:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=2286487
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=11156281
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15574106
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15039254

Still, looks like there might be *something* there???

 

[Roadie_scum]

All very interesting.

I think I've been summoned.

There is no compelling evidence that stretching prevents injury at all. I'm a bit surprised to see a pro-stretcher quoting the Honolulu study. The one being referred to (Lally 1994) found a 35% greater injury rate in people who *do* stretch, not the other way round. See:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol44/lally.htm

Equally, studies into distance runners show that flexibility negatively correlates with performance. See Jones 2002 and Craib et al. 1996.


The idea that hamstring tightness causes a loss in power is derived from a lack of understanding of cycling biomechanics. The knee flexor is actuallly *engaged* during the downstroke, although this seems counterintuitive to some. Just try holding your hamstring while you ride and you'll see what I mean.

Stretching before exercise causes an acute loss in muscle strength. Although this shouldn't bother endurance cyclists it's worth bearing in mind if you're a trackie. See:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1179
At the moment just about the only positive evidence for stretching is that it might increase strength a little if done regularly, but again this is of little consequence to endurance riders.
As far as improved (at least acute) recovery is concerned see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15199225
These comments are in no way intended to knock stretching if someone is suffering from limited mobility, just that there is no evidence that it will help you go quicker if you're a fit competitive cyclist.
Hope this helps; if anyone's interested in the article I wrote earlier in the year you can find it on my website: www.science4sport.com

L.

I have seen stretching advocated by people I consider worth listening to for two reasons - the first being specific stretching routines to solve joint problems. Knee tracking, hip alignment, etc. The second is to enable comfortable riding in UCI legal time trial positions. I find the second less credible as steepening the seat angle should take away from flexibility issues in my understanding, not compound them, but I'd be interested in your comments on both these issues.

 

[Roadie_scum]

Ahh yes...

to quote from Friel:

A good example of how tight muscles limit your performance involves the hamstring...Of all the tightness that can result from cycling, this may be the most debilitating. Tight hamstrings restrain the leg during the down stroke. In this condition they work to prevent the leg from straightening, and in doing so, reduce the force produced by the leg. In an attempt to alleviate the tension felt in the back of the leg, the affected cyclist will often lower his or her saddle. A saddle that is set too low further reduces force generation, which in turn reduces power output.

Tight hamstrings can also contribute to a tight lower back, which haunts some riders on long rides...forcing them to abandon. Off the bike, this low-back tightness may become lower-back pain. A consistent and effective program of stretching can prevent, or at the least, alleviate such problems.

A study of 1,543 runners in the Honolulu Marathon found that those who stretched regularly following workouts had fewer injuries than those who didn't. It is noteworthy that in this same study those who stretched only before workouts had the highest rate of injuries.

Stretching after workouts appears to aid the recovery process by improving muscle cells' uptake of amino acids. This promotes protein synthesis...

ETC.

Mmmhmmm.

I think I've been summoned.

There is no compelling evidence that stretching prevents injury at all. I'm a bit surprised to see a pro-stretcher quoting the Honolulu study. The one being referred to (Lally 1994) found a 35% greater injury rate in people who *do* stretch, not the other way round. See:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol44/lally.htm

A certain famous cycling training book reminds me of a wonderful George Gershwin song.

...the things that you're liable to read in the bible, it ain't necessarily so...

 

[Roadie_scum]

Did someone post a link to biker_linz' article that I missed?