biker-linz said:
Can someone explain 'fatigue index' to me?
From a cursory glance it looks like massage is more likely to be effective where there is at least a day between bouts of exercise. Seems plausible.
Stretching is counter productive?
- Thread starter JungleBiker
- Start date
Can someone explain 'fatigue index' to me?
From a cursory glance it looks like massage is more likely to be effective where there is at least a day between bouts of exercise. Seems plausible.
Apologies for co-opting this thread but I just thought of something that might affect the Hawaii study. If one had a history of injury, it is very likely that would also predict for a proclivity towards future injury. Furthermore, if one had a history of injury it is quite likely that someone would have advised that you stretch to prevent the injury. Thus it is probably more likely that people at risk of injury stretch, and the fact that this risk tends to eventuate is not necessarily proof of much.
Did they somehow control for this in the study? Does this idea have any validity?
Did they somehow control for this in the study? Does this idea have any validity?
I suspect you have a valid point, I thought the same thing. When I played football many years ago we were taught to stretch before training and games. Whilst many of us didn't take it too seriously, those who had had muscle strains (and were possibly more prone to these sorts of injury) were fairly religious about the stretching.Roadie_scum said:
I have a research background and "it aint necessarily so" should have been written about research reports. One of the most common mistakes made is to attribute cause and effect simply because there is a correlation between two data fields in a study. This is illogical and without some other evidence of cause and effect, is a completely wrong conclusion to draw. It's like observing that bald people more often wear hats than people that are not bald and concluding that wearing hats make people go bald.
i'll always remember my juniors coach relating how at a well attended clinic put on by a renowned pro the question of stretching was put forth. the reply:
" i've seen people doing that, anyone?"
for me, the hurdler's stretch relieves tension on the low back. and the hamstrings are notoriously underworked in cycling, some stretching actualy develops the area by lifting of your bodyweight. also the calfs, never do they go through the full range of motion cycling, good to put them through the paces. the neglected abs of the cyclist could use a couple sets of crunches.
most people do not use the full range of any muscle, in this aspect the majority have the muscle tone of walking corpses. this is probably reason as much as any for the current yoga fervor, you actualy use your range of motion.
weight training is ideal for tuning into this as well as it attunes one to basic physiololgy in action.
" i've seen people doing that, anyone?"
for me, the hurdler's stretch relieves tension on the low back. and the hamstrings are notoriously underworked in cycling, some stretching actualy develops the area by lifting of your bodyweight. also the calfs, never do they go through the full range of motion cycling, good to put them through the paces. the neglected abs of the cyclist could use a couple sets of crunches.
most people do not use the full range of any muscle, in this aspect the majority have the muscle tone of walking corpses. this is probably reason as much as any for the current yoga fervor, you actualy use your range of motion.
weight training is ideal for tuning into this as well as it attunes one to basic physiololgy in action.
JungleBiker said:
Puuulease! Ric is not the only one in this forum who can answer your questions. Granted, he is very knowledgable about cycling and exercise physiology (perfect for this forum), but there are plenty of other people in this forum who are just as talented. Open yourself up to opinions of other responders.JungleBiker said:
I think a lot of people are not differentiating between the questions of "Will stretching make me ride faster" versus "Is stretching good for my overall fitness and well being." It seems like this is taken to the extreme in the Pro/con weight training discussions as well.
Unless you are a professional cyclist (and I'm guessing 99% of the readers on this forum are not), there's no reason you shouldn't incorporate both into your exercise routine, especially if you're over 35. Will it make you ride faster? Probably not. You're better off spending more time on the bike. But as a 40 year old, if all I did was ride my bike I would probably have had back surgery by now, I'd have no upper body strength, and my posture would look like a crooked 70 year old.
As a side note, if I never did IT band stretching, I would be unable to run or bike. And if I didn't routinely do shoulder rotator cuff exercises, I couldn't hold onto a bike, much less open a door. Getting old is a *****.
Unless you are a professional cyclist (and I'm guessing 99% of the readers on this forum are not), there's no reason you shouldn't incorporate both into your exercise routine, especially if you're over 35. Will it make you ride faster? Probably not. You're better off spending more time on the bike. But as a 40 year old, if all I did was ride my bike I would probably have had back surgery by now, I'd have no upper body strength, and my posture would look like a crooked 70 year old.
As a side note, if I never did IT band stretching, I would be unable to run or bike. And if I didn't routinely do shoulder rotator cuff exercises, I couldn't hold onto a bike, much less open a door. Getting old is a *****.
kennf said:
I might be second guessing the real experts here, but I don't think they would reject specifically targeted remedial stretching and strengthening to overcome particular pathologies like ITB problems or mobility issues. This discussion I think is more focused on general stretching of all muscles regardless of injury or current state of flexibility - the more is always better school of thought.
Absolutely not! Stretching is the best thing you can do for your muscles, actually for your entire body.
Keep yourself from injury, keep supple, keep joints moving, warm up or relax your tissues...Stretching is THE THING TO DO - do at least 15 minutes a day.
And the proof is: try it and over a month see how you feel.
Good luck
Sibilla
Keep yourself from injury, keep supple, keep joints moving, warm up or relax your tissues...Stretching is THE THING TO DO - do at least 15 minutes a day.
And the proof is: try it and over a month see how you feel.
Good luck
Sibilla
I have heard conversations among trainers, powerlifters and doctors who are competitors and based on my own experience in strength training that muscle groups that are somewhat contracted seem to have more strength than those muscle groups that go through extensive stretching.
The article states that there are events that require more flexibility such as gymnastics and karate.
There are other events where stretching can actually lower performance. I believe cycling can be one of those events. I can see where strength events like powerlifting can be an advantage not to be totally stretched out. It seems that a contacted muscle group actually has more strength where as extensive stretching may cause a slight loss in strength. Anyone familiar with powerlifting knows that the competitors will use a squat suit or a bench shirt. Those garments are extremely tight and cause a greater amount of compression which in turn can increase a lift by 10's of pounds. Same with biking shorts I imagine. An 8 ounce lycra short creates a compression in the leg muscles and this probably helps provide a slight increase in performance. I imagine that a contracted muscle is very similar to the principle of these sport specific garments. There could be an increase in strength/power or should I say that there would be less of a loss to strength or power if the muscle group is not overly stretched before an event.
I am certainly no expert on this subject and my post is based on conversations and experience in other sporting events. I hope that I am not way off base and certainly would like to hear if anyone else has read or seen similar studies to this.
The article states that there are events that require more flexibility such as gymnastics and karate.
There are other events where stretching can actually lower performance. I believe cycling can be one of those events. I can see where strength events like powerlifting can be an advantage not to be totally stretched out. It seems that a contacted muscle group actually has more strength where as extensive stretching may cause a slight loss in strength. Anyone familiar with powerlifting knows that the competitors will use a squat suit or a bench shirt. Those garments are extremely tight and cause a greater amount of compression which in turn can increase a lift by 10's of pounds. Same with biking shorts I imagine. An 8 ounce lycra short creates a compression in the leg muscles and this probably helps provide a slight increase in performance. I imagine that a contracted muscle is very similar to the principle of these sport specific garments. There could be an increase in strength/power or should I say that there would be less of a loss to strength or power if the muscle group is not overly stretched before an event.
I am certainly no expert on this subject and my post is based on conversations and experience in other sporting events. I hope that I am not way off base and certainly would like to hear if anyone else has read or seen similar studies to this.
Personally, I'd never do something for performance that damages my health.
My way of thinking is opposite of the thread's title. Anything that damages
my yoga (Ashtanga style) is clearly detrimental to my body. If I abuse my running or cycling, the yoga practice becomes more and more difficult. Tight hamstrings, jumpy heart, anxieties from overtraining, etc..Opposite with swimming. Mixed results with weight lifting
Try this pose just after riding:
http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/693_1.cfm
Try it again after two days of no riding.
Think.
Detach from your cycling 'ego'
Think again.
Take care of your body. It's your vehicle in life
My way of thinking is opposite of the thread's title. Anything that damages
my yoga (Ashtanga style) is clearly detrimental to my body. If I abuse my running or cycling, the yoga practice becomes more and more difficult. Tight hamstrings, jumpy heart, anxieties from overtraining, etc..Opposite with swimming. Mixed results with weight lifting
Try this pose just after riding:
http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/693_1.cfm
Try it again after two days of no riding.
Think.
Detach from your cycling 'ego'
Think again.
Take care of your body. It's your vehicle in life
I recently read a post on Hatfield's web site about stretching and powerlifing and Fred's son (forget his name, Fred Jr.?) basically stated that one needs only to be as flexible as your event requires and perhaps slightly more but no more than that. If your event doesn't require you to touch the floor with your palms while standing then there isn't any need to stetch in order to obtain that level of flexibility.Felt_Rider said:
Personally, I quit stretching the day I read Biker-Linz' posts. THANK YOU BIKER-LINZ!!!!!!
When it comes to science vs people's feelings about a topic, I choose science every time. It does no good when people say "I feel like this helps" or "I feel like that's important" as it isn't based on any factual data. That's how women think. Feelings can and often do mislead you. What people feel to be true (little truth) and what is actually true (big TRUTH) are frequently 2 different things. We can't make something true just by wishing it to be so.
For example, I can get a back massage from my girlfriend of the week and while that may feel pretty darn good, I doubt it will have any impact on my physical performance as it pertains to cycling. It may, however, have an impact on other areas of performance which are not relevant to a cycling discussion board!!
Again, thank you Biker-Linz for presenting the FACTS!
For example, I can get a back massage from my girlfriend of the week and while that may feel pretty darn good, I doubt it will have any impact on my physical performance as it pertains to cycling. It may, however, have an impact on other areas of performance which are not relevant to a cycling discussion board!!
Again, thank you Biker-Linz for presenting the FACTS!
Thanks Dr. Morbius for a little more assurance.
On my previous post I was purely speculating as to why or how there could be a loss of performance with extensive stretching with certain sports training. I have no proof otherwise and may be way off target.
I have searched the web regarding strength & stretching and have not found a full fledge article or study for the subject. Only implied remarks.
On my previous post I was purely speculating as to why or how there could be a loss of performance with extensive stretching with certain sports training. I have no proof otherwise and may be way off target.
I have searched the web regarding strength & stretching and have not found a full fledge article or study for the subject. Only implied remarks.
Felt_Rider said:
Doesn't Linds article and the other one that Felt_rider referenced include these articles on strenth and stretching. Nonetheless, in a an extremely brief web search (about 20-secs) i've just found 3 papers on strength and stretching. I've no idea if these are the papers (along with others) that are cited in the two articles above.
ric
Thanks ric, I went back to the link that Biker_Linz posted for one of the articles and it suggests exactly what I was thinking that stretching effects the contractile state which can have a negative impact on strength for a certain time period.
Biker_Linz link http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1179
Biker_Linz link http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1179
Stretching doesn't immediately improve athletic performance, but used as part of a strategy to restore and maintain proper muscles balances (such as the relationship between glutes and hip flexors) it will prevent long-term injury due to joint dysfunction. There was post up there about tight hamstrings inhibiting proper pedal stroke. Exactly why a commitment to a proper stretching routine is so important.
I stretch before and after both ride and gym workouts:
Active stretching before - such as lunges with glute contractions, or prone leg-extensions with quad contraction, reciprocally stretch my hip flexors and hamstring, respectively.
Then postride/workout, static stretching for about 30 seconds in about 3-4 variable areas are for regenerative purposes on sore muscles and also help maintain proper length-tension relationships.
I stretch before and after both ride and gym workouts:
Active stretching before - such as lunges with glute contractions, or prone leg-extensions with quad contraction, reciprocally stretch my hip flexors and hamstring, respectively.
Then postride/workout, static stretching for about 30 seconds in about 3-4 variable areas are for regenerative purposes on sore muscles and also help maintain proper length-tension relationships.
JungleBiker said:
