Study suggests cyclists prone to osteoporosis

[Bleve]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Bleve wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > (as you know full well!) improvement is gradual and cumulative. For
> > all you know, the weights may have been detrimental, but since you
> > don't have a control group, you have no way of knowing this. All you
> > know is that while you were doing a bunch of training, which included
> > weight training, you improved.
>
> An interesting fact is that my running speedwork sessions and my hard
> cycling sessions, on base, were faster if I did them on the same day as
> my weights session (which were all power weights) than if I did them at
> any other time. I reckon someone should do a study on that, it's
> interesting because it's probably neural.

Yes, it is interesting. What sort of power work were you doing? It
may have been a fatigue/muscle damage/inflamation issue as well. It
would be interesting to see your CK levels after this sort of training
and see if they suggest excessive muscle damage.

> > > Hey when are you up on the GC?
> >
> > Soon ... got to visit the GPs before they cark it ...
>
> To make sure your name is on the Will? Well, make sure you let me know.

Heh, nowt to do with will (I think they have no money left anyway!).

> > If that's all your doing, sure. But if you're riding a bike for
> > 2-3hrs+ a day, a
> > walk is a good way to unwind a bit in the evening, spend some time with
> > a partner (hey, honey, let's go for a walk after dinner etc ..). It's
> > not being done for aerobic training, it's a bit of light weightbearing
> > exercice to reduce osteoporosis risk and retain some sanity!
>
> But don't you get bored? It's so slow... and boring!

I don't, no. It's a lot less boring that watching most TV shows!
Let's see : watch the Idol Aust caraoke championships, or go for a walk
? Where's my shoes ...

> > > and (2) it causes you to do weird things with your hips if you're trying
> > > to do it fast. Plus you take as many steps in a shorter time when
> > > running, get better core training from it, and it increases your ROM
> > > (but not in a passive sense).
> >
> > Remember, you're training for running. I'm talking about training for
> > cyclists. You're a runner who rides a bit (ok, quite a bit, but I think
> > you know what I mean?). I suggest my riders go for walks with their
> > partners etc after training, not use walking *as* training. (it's a
> > subtle difference, but an important one )
>
> Like how I use cycling?

I guess, without knowing exactly what riding you do and why

> > > For core strength I'd say pilates is much better than yoga provided you
> > > have a good instructor. I'd not recommend swimming unless you're (1)
> > > good or (2) getting coached because it does nothing for your core
> > > strength if you're doing it poorly.
> >
> > I'd expect that freestyle would be a good core exercise, and if you can
> > do 2 laps of butterfly you have some serious core! But then again,
> > yoga is very good for flexibility, so a bit of pilates and a bit of
> > yoga would be of some benefit to cyclists, I would expect.
>
> The way most people do freestyle, it's got nothing to do with core.
> Seriously, have a good look next time you're at the pool. It's scary.

It does get them pulling against their hips and resisting a torque.
Or, they're not swimming at all.


> 2
> laps of butterfly... that can be my next goal. I did 1 lap (50m) last
> week, without stopping, and I felt like a hero.



> > > > I have to find some time to re-write my weight training thing on the
> > > > aboc site, since writing that I have changed my mind about the benefits
> > > > or otherwise of weight training for most cyclists.
> > >
> > > I hate being a freak.
> >
> > Get a haircut and a real job!
>
> Hey, I think you got me confused with someone else

Nope

 

[Bleve]

Tamyka Bell wrote:

> That all leads me to another thing... what about off-season, coach? E.g.
> I didn't train at all for a month while I was hiking in Tassie and when
> I came back, my swimming sucked but my cycle/run splits were faster than
> before I left. Was it just the rest? Was it the weight I carried the
> whole time hiking? Just the activity?

Maybe? We know you're rather prone to overtraining. I'd guess it may
have been the active rest.

That's just a guess though. I haven't seen what you do or how hard you
do it - can only go on what you've written here, which does suggest a
level of overtraining.

Where'd you go hiking? Fed Peak? Central highlands?

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Bleve wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
> > Bleve wrote:
> > >
> > <snip>
> > > (as you know full well!) improvement is gradual and cumulative. For
> > > all you know, the weights may have been detrimental, but since you
> > > don't have a control group, you have no way of knowing this. All you
> > > know is that while you were doing a bunch of training, which included
> > > weight training, you improved.
> >
> > An interesting fact is that my running speedwork sessions and my hard
> > cycling sessions, on base, were faster if I did them on the same day as
> > my weights session (which were all power weights) than if I did them at
> > any other time. I reckon someone should do a study on that, it's
> > interesting because it's probably neural.
>
> Yes, it is interesting. What sort of power work were you doing? It
> may have been a fatigue/muscle damage/inflamation issue as well. It
> would be interesting to see your CK levels after this sort of training
> and see if they suggest excessive muscle damage.

Yeah, but that'd involve a lab. Ew! I was doing high speed, high
weight, moderate rep with the last few assisted. In terms of legs, about
240kg 45deg leg press, explosive to tiptoes, or 160 single leg, followed
by jumping squats or lunges for about 1 minute (lactatic), was my
favourite.

> > > If that's all your doing, sure. But if you're riding a bike for
> > > 2-3hrs+ a day, a
> > > walk is a good way to unwind a bit in the evening, spend some time with
> > > a partner (hey, honey, let's go for a walk after dinner etc ..). It's
> > > not being done for aerobic training, it's a bit of light weightbearing
> > > exercice to reduce osteoporosis risk and retain some sanity!
> >
> > But don't you get bored? It's so slow... and boring!
>
> I don't, no. It's a lot less boring that watching most TV shows!
> Let's see : watch the Idol Aust caraoke championships, or go for a walk
> ? Where's my shoes ...

We should all live such leisurely lives! TV? What's that?

> > > Remember, you're training for running. I'm talking about training for
> > > cyclists. You're a runner who rides a bit (ok, quite a bit, but I think
> > > you know what I mean?). I suggest my riders go for walks with their
> > > partners etc after training, not use walking *as* training. (it's a
> > > subtle difference, but an important one )
> >
> > Like how I use cycling?
>
> I guess, without knowing exactly what riding you do and why

Transport. I don't like being a runner. I'm a good runner for a
triathlete. I'm a good runner for a cyclist. Please don't judge me
against real runners. They train more than once per week.

> > The way most people do freestyle, it's got nothing to do with core.
> > Seriously, have a good look next time you're at the pool. It's scary.
>
> It does get them pulling against their hips and resisting a torque.
> Or, they're not swimming at all.

I don't quite understand "pulling against their hips" but I see a lot of
people swimming as if their lower body is entirely disengaged from their
upper body. Which I'm pretty sure doesn't count as core training.

> > > Get a haircut and a real job!
> >
> > Hey, I think you got me confused with someone else
>
> Nope

If I got my hair cut I couldn't tie it up in a bun for my real job.

Tam

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Bleve wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
>
> > That all leads me to another thing... what about off-season, coach? E.g.
> > I didn't train at all for a month while I was hiking in Tassie and when
> > I came back, my swimming sucked but my cycle/run splits were faster than
> > before I left. Was it just the rest? Was it the weight I carried the
> > whole time hiking? Just the activity?
>
> Maybe? We know you're rather prone to overtraining. I'd guess it may
> have been the active rest.

Oi, no I'm not!

> That's just a guess though. I haven't seen what you do or how hard you
> do it - can only go on what you've written here, which does suggest a
> level of overtraining.

Nope. I've just learned that I'm a little... different. I don't respond
well to standard training. I like high intensity and high volume over
short periods with a lot of rest following. I respond better to 3 hard
sessions per week than to 4 easy sessions and a hard session. I don't
know why. I also don't ice most soft tissue injuries because they end up
calcifying. like I said...

> Where'd you go hiking? Fed Peak? Central highlands?

Mt Field, Hartz Mtns, Mt Wellington, Tasman Peninsula, Freycinet
Peninsula, Overland track... and more that I can't remember...

Tam

 

[warrwych]

warrwych wrote:

> > I have to find some time to re-write my weight training thing on the
> > aboc site, since writing that I have changed my mind about the
> > benefits
> > or otherwise of weight training for most cyclists.
>
> I guess it depends on if you read Stern or Friels.

Or have read both (as I'm sure you have too ). I'm a big fan of
Friels, but I'm not convinced yet as to some of his claims being on the
money. Some of his stuff on acidic food is particularly ..
interesting. Right up there with Ed Bourke saying you should sleep on
your right so your heart works better! (Excercise for the reader, find
where Ed makes this interesting claim!). As coaches our role includes
sifting through the mire to find the gems, and then pass those gems on
to our athletes. Not always is this path clear or the gems easily
distinguishable from the surrounding muck!

> Pesonally I think
> for women and masters (polite way of saying over 40 ) strength
> training is of benefit.

That's what Freils says, and "maybe". My experience has been such that
the older riders I've worked with have had more issues brought about by
weight training than I would have thought would have been of benefit.
Or, in plain english, weight training hurt their cycling. This may
have been because they were doing inappropriate weights work, but I
didn't think what they were doing at the time was that excessive.
Friels (from memory, the book's at home and I'm not) doesn't cite any
studies that support his claims. If he does, I'd like to have a read
of them. From memory he says there's a lot of room for vertical
studies on athletes to see how they go over time, but little in the way
of hard data to support his opinion.

An awful lot of cycling training is built up on folklore and myth and
the tail wagging the dog (Lance does this, so it must be the best way
to do it etc). The art is trying to seperate the myth from reality.

Now, strength training is not necessarily weights work in a gym (as you
point out adroitly with the reference to the wheelbarrow). I get my
racing cyclists to do specific strengh training, but that is done on
the bike. I don't generally get rec cyclists doing it, as it's mainly
for sprinting. Almost everyone is strong enough already. We may be
confusing strength training with weight training in a gym (or a farm
pushing a barrow!). We may also be confusing core work with strength
training and things like neck strength etc with what I would call
classical weights work.

> It may not have a direct impact on speed, but
> will have an impact on overall fitness and longterm health benefits.

In isolation, yes. As part of a structured cycling program, maybe. Of
benefit to a training cyclist? maybe ... but maybe not. It depends on
what you're trying to achieve.

> And you don't really need to go to a gym to lift weights. Pushing a
> fully loaded wheelbarrow up a hill for several sets can work too!

That's certainly true! I use hillsprints for overload resistance
training, which is very specific to cycling (it *is* cycling ). I
think you've done them? If so, you'll know what I mean! There are many
ways to do strength training. Some of them may even be of benefit to
cyclists.

> I agree with Tam - it certainly doesn't slow you down, unless you
> decide to do bodybuilding.

I wouldn't use the word "certainly" in this context. It may actually
inhibit cycling performance by taking away training time and impacting
on recovery time, as just one possible effect. If you're doing heavy
resistance work at an inappropriate time in your training plan it may
seriously affect your riding. We don't know for sure, thus the careful
use of the word "may"

I guess to summarise, if one is planning on doing weights work (or some
other strengh training) then one is wise to consider carefully how it
fits in to a cycling training program. I'd suggest that in most cases
it doesn't fit in at all, but other coaches will disagree.

cos I still havent worked out how to do the multiple reply mulitcoloured thing, am going to summarise a response to our above Bleve

1. I thoroughly agree with you re: the wacky... er.. interesting coaching tips that crop up. Acidity, sleeping on your right side, not eating chocolate, not eating after 9 pm, not eating chocolate after 9 pm.... As you say, it's a matter of sifting through and selecting what gels for you and being open-minded and flexible. It's important to be aware that our gems may not be our athletes' gems at times.

2. Friels does say weights for women & masters all year round, as opposed to weights in the off season only. But as you note Blevey, timing, quality and quantity are crucial. Friels periodises weights also. And he cites no research, which makes my academic hairs stand on end.

3. I would disagree with you re: core stability and everyone being strong enough already (unless I have misread you). As a dressage coach, I know the ability to control a horse and ride well comes from a very strong and stable core - a fact not often recognised by riders. I see LOTS& LOTS of riders who have sloppy cores, soft abs, weak backs and midsections. They cannot hold themselves up to sit on their horses properly, let alone go with the movement of the horse. Horse riders are little different from bike riders. Cyclists *hide* their weak midsections when they lean over the handle bars and let their upper bodies take the weight, and start the bob & rock when fatigue comes to visit.

4. Timing of weight training CAN impact on recovery - speaking from experience! Again, a well written program and some commonsense will factor this in. And as you say, you need to know what you want to achieve in the weight room - what are your weaknesses and what's the best way to diminish those?

5. I think track cyclists are an interesting example of the use of weight training. Apparently Kerrie Meares has been seen to deadlift 150+kg. Maybe that's incidental to her cycling, maybe not? But trackies also hit the wieght room quite seriously at key points in their annual training schedule.

 

[Bleve]

Tamyka Bell wrote:

> > Yes, it is interesting. What sort of power work were you doing? It
> > may have been a fatigue/muscle damage/inflamation issue as well. It
> > would be interesting to see your CK levels after this sort of training
> > and see if they suggest excessive muscle damage.
>
> Yeah, but that'd involve a lab. Ew! I was doing high speed, high
> weight, moderate rep with the last few assisted. In terms of legs, about
> 240kg 45deg leg press, explosive to tiptoes, or 160 single leg, followed
> by jumping squats or lunges for about 1 minute (lactatic), was my
> favourite.

Ok, muscle damaging work. Did you ever get much DOMS?


> > I guess, without knowing exactly what riding you do and why
>
> Transport. I don't like being a runner. I'm a good runner for a
> triathlete. I'm a good runner for a cyclist. Please don't judge me
> against real runners. They train more than once per week.

Aren't you working towards some ultramarathon thing?

> > > The way most people do freestyle, it's got nothing to do with core.
> > > Seriously, have a good look next time you're at the pool. It's scary.
> >
> > It does get them pulling against their hips and resisting a torque.
> > Or, they're not swimming at all.
>
> I don't quite understand "pulling against their hips" but I see a lot of
> people swimming as if their lower body is entirely disengaged from their
> upper body. Which I'm pretty sure doesn't count as core training.

Arms drag body & legs, and core has to resist a torque as the shoulders
rotate to allow you get your arms out of the water on the top of the
stroke.

> > > > Get a haircut and a real job!
> > >
> > > Hey, I think you got me confused with someone else
> >
> > Nope
>
> If I got my hair cut I couldn't tie it up in a bun for my real job.

heh, bun ..

 

[Tamyka Bell]

warrwych wrote:
>
<snip>
> 2. Friels does say weights for women & masters all year round, as
> opposed to weights in the off season only. But as you note Blevey,
> timing, quality and quantity are crucial. Friels periodises weights
> also. And he cites no research, which makes my academic hairs stand on
> end.

Academic hairs? Consider plucking.

Tam

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Bleve wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
>
> > > Yes, it is interesting. What sort of power work were you doing? It
> > > may have been a fatigue/muscle damage/inflamation issue as well. It
> > > would be interesting to see your CK levels after this sort of training
> > > and see if they suggest excessive muscle damage.
> >
> > Yeah, but that'd involve a lab. Ew! I was doing high speed, high
> > weight, moderate rep with the last few assisted. In terms of legs, about
> > 240kg 45deg leg press, explosive to tiptoes, or 160 single leg, followed
> > by jumping squats or lunges for about 1 minute (lactatic), was my
> > favourite.
>
> Ok, muscle damaging work. Did you ever get much DOMS?

Only on week 1 or on weeks when I didn't do a speedwork session on the
same day. (There ain't much point in weight training if you're not
muscle damaging.)

> > > I guess, without knowing exactly what riding you do and why
> >
> > Transport. I don't like being a runner. I'm a good runner for a
> > triathlete. I'm a good runner for a cyclist. Please don't judge me
> > against real runners. They train more than once per week.
>
> Aren't you working towards some ultramarathon thing?

I've already done "some ultramarathon thing" and I've got my next in
early December. I know my body won't handle all that running in training
though. So I'll do say one really long run a week and one shorter harder
run per week, and maybe some water running.

> > > > The way most people do freestyle, it's got nothing to do with core.
> > > > Seriously, have a good look next time you're at the pool. It's scary.
> > >
> > > It does get them pulling against their hips and resisting a torque.
> > > Or, they're not swimming at all.
> >
> > I don't quite understand "pulling against their hips" but I see a lot of
> > people swimming as if their lower body is entirely disengaged from their
> > upper body. Which I'm pretty sure doesn't count as core training.
>
> Arms drag body & legs, and core has to resist a torque as the shoulders
> rotate to allow you get your arms out of the water on the top of the
> stroke.

The way most people swim uses lots of arm and not much core, seriously.

> > > > > Get a haircut and a real job!
> > > >
> > > > Hey, I think you got me confused with someone else
> > >
> > > Nope
> >
> > If I got my hair cut I couldn't tie it up in a bun for my real job.
>
> heh, bun ..

Grrrr.

Tam

 

[Bleve]

warrwych wrote:
> Bleve Wrote:

>
> cos I still havent worked out how to do the multiple reply
> mulitcoloured thing, am going to summarise a response to our above
> Bleve



> 1. I thoroughly agree with you re: the wacky... er.. interesting
> coaching tips that crop up. Acidity, sleeping on your right side, not
> eating chocolate, not eating after 9 pm, not eating chocolate after 9
> pm.... As you say, it's a matter of sifting through and selecting what
> gels for you and being open-minded and flexible. It's important to be
> aware that our gems may not be our athletes' gems at times.

Agreed.

> 2. Friels does say weights for women & masters all year round, as
> opposed to weights in the off season only. But as you note Blevey,
> timing, quality and quantity are crucial. Friels periodises weights
> also. And he cites no research, which makes my academic hairs stand on
> end.
>
> 3. I would disagree with you re: core stability and everyone being
> strong enough already (unless I have misread you). As a dressage coach,
> I know the ability to control a horse and ride well comes from a very
> strong and stable core - a fact not often recognised by riders. I see
> LOTS& LOTS of riders who have sloppy cores, soft abs, weak backs and
> midsections. They cannot hold themselves up to sit on their horses
> properly, let alone go with the movement of the horse. Horse riders are
> little different from bike riders. Cyclists *hide* their weak
> midsections when they lean over the handle bars and let their upper
> bodies take the weight, and start the bob & rock when fatigue comes to
> visit.

There may be something in that, and certainly I recommend core work -
but I'm not mixing it up with what most people would call strength
training. Your experience with dressage riders may also be a
significantly different sample. I'm guessing that most horseriders
(recreational, that is) who decide to get into dressage may be a less
generally athletic group than those who decide to get into bike racing?
Thus the sample may be skewed?


> 4. Timing of weight training CAN impact on recovery - speaking from
> experience! Again, a well written program and some commonsense will
> factor this in. And as you say, you need to know what you want to
> achieve in the weight room - what are your weaknesses and what's the
> best way to diminish those?

Yep.

> 5. I think track cyclists are an interesting example of the use of
> weight training. Apparently Kerrie Meares has been seen to deadlift
> 150+kg. Maybe that's incidental to her cycling, maybe not? But trackies
> also hit the wieght room quite seriously at key points in their annual
> training schedule.

Track sprinters are a different breed to most cyclists - they are a
rare exception where brute strength is a significant factor in their
performances. Track sprinters are so different that they warrant a
whole different training regieme, and I wouldn't even pretend to have
the faintest idea as to how to train one! Given the nature of a match
sprint, a lot of psychout stuff goes on, and making big claims about
weights being pushed around could be part of that game, as much as
being used as performance enhancing.

 

[warrwych]

warrwych wrote:
>
<snip>
> 2. Friels does say weights for women & masters all year round, as
> opposed to weights in the off season only. But as you note Blevey,
> timing, quality and quantity are crucial. Friels periodises weights
> also. And he cites no research, which makes my academic hairs stand on
> end.

Academic hairs? Consider plucking.

Tam

I disguise them under various rainbow colours

 

[Resound]

"Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bleve wrote:
>>
>> warrwych wrote:
> <snip>
>> > It may not have a direct impact on speed, but
>> > will have an impact on overall fitness and longterm health benefits.
>>
>> In isolation, yes. As part of a structured cycling program, maybe. Of
>> benefit to a training cyclist? maybe ... but maybe not. It depends on
>> what you're trying to achieve.
>>
>> > And you don't really need to go to a gym to lift weights. Pushing a
>> > fully loaded wheelbarrow up a hill for several sets can work too!
>>
>> That's certainly true! I use hillsprints for overload resistance
>> training, which is very specific to cycling (it *is* cycling ). I
>> think you've done them? If so, you'll know what I mean! There are many
>> ways to do strength training. Some of them may even be of benefit to
>> cyclists.
>>
>> > I agree with Tam - it certainly doesn't slow you down, unless you
>> > decide to do bodybuilding.
>>
>> I wouldn't use the word "certainly" in this context. It may actually
>> inhibit cycling performance by taking away training time and impacting
>> on recovery time, as just one possible effect. If you're doing heavy
>> resistance work at an inappropriate time in your training plan it may
>> seriously affect your riding. We don't know for sure, thus the careful
>> use of the word "may"
>>
>> I guess to summarise, if one is planning on doing weights work (or some
>> other strengh training) then one is wise to consider carefully how it
>> fits in to a cycling training program. I'd suggest that in most cases
>> it doesn't fit in at all, but other coaches will disagree.
>
> That all leads me to another thing... what about off-season, coach? E.g.
> I didn't train at all for a month while I was hiking in Tassie and when
> I came back, my swimming sucked but my cycle/run splits were faster than
> before I left. Was it just the rest? Was it the weight I carried the
> whole time hiking? Just the activity?
>
> Tam

Was it the fact that when you're hiking, you're still using your legs
extensively but your arms are doing sod all? If you're hiking reasonable
distances in mountainous terrain while carrying a good sized pack, I don't
know that I'd say you didn't train at all for a month

 

[hippy]

>Tamyka Bell said..
> hippy said
> I will join a gym soon and continue my crappy
> intermittent running.
> Yeah, running and gym - anyone want a GT MTB?
>
> I also wonder what colour leotard you have picked for >Euan? I am not
> sure if I should go for the black over bright yellow or
> the pink on grey look? Your thoughts?

> hippy...

Yo!

> .... are you trying to impress someone?

With the gym thing or the leotard selection?

hippy

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Resound wrote:
>
> "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Bleve wrote:
> >>
> >> warrwych wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> > It may not have a direct impact on speed, but
> >> > will have an impact on overall fitness and longterm health benefits.
> >>
> >> In isolation, yes. As part of a structured cycling program, maybe. Of
> >> benefit to a training cyclist? maybe ... but maybe not. It depends on
> >> what you're trying to achieve.
> >>
> >> > And you don't really need to go to a gym to lift weights. Pushing a
> >> > fully loaded wheelbarrow up a hill for several sets can work too!
> >>
> >> That's certainly true! I use hillsprints for overload resistance
> >> training, which is very specific to cycling (it *is* cycling ). I
> >> think you've done them? If so, you'll know what I mean! There are many
> >> ways to do strength training. Some of them may even be of benefit to
> >> cyclists.
> >>
> >> > I agree with Tam - it certainly doesn't slow you down, unless you
> >> > decide to do bodybuilding.
> >>
> >> I wouldn't use the word "certainly" in this context. It may actually
> >> inhibit cycling performance by taking away training time and impacting
> >> on recovery time, as just one possible effect. If you're doing heavy
> >> resistance work at an inappropriate time in your training plan it may
> >> seriously affect your riding. We don't know for sure, thus the careful
> >> use of the word "may"
> >>
> >> I guess to summarise, if one is planning on doing weights work (or some
> >> other strengh training) then one is wise to consider carefully how it
> >> fits in to a cycling training program. I'd suggest that in most cases
> >> it doesn't fit in at all, but other coaches will disagree.
> >
> > That all leads me to another thing... what about off-season, coach? E.g.
> > I didn't train at all for a month while I was hiking in Tassie and when
> > I came back, my swimming sucked but my cycle/run splits were faster than
> > before I left. Was it just the rest? Was it the weight I carried the
> > whole time hiking? Just the activity?
> >
> > Tam
>
> Was it the fact that when you're hiking, you're still using your legs
> extensively but your arms are doing sod all? If you're hiking reasonable
> distances in mountainous terrain while carrying a good sized pack, I don't
> know that I'd say you didn't train at all for a month

Okay, well Carl might say I "wasn't overtraining for a month"

Tam

 

[Bleve]

Tamyka Bell wrote:

> > Maybe? We know you're rather prone to overtraining. I'd guess it may
> > have been the active rest.
>
> Oi, no I'm not!

ok ok ok

> > Where'd you go hiking? Fed Peak? Central highlands?
>
> Mt Field, Hartz Mtns, Mt Wellington, Tasman Peninsula, Freycinet
> Peninsula, Overland track... and more that I can't remember...

A Lap of Tassie, eh? (quiet in the peanut gallery ...)

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Bleve and Tam wrote:
>
> > > Where'd you go hiking? Fed Peak? Central highlands?
> >
> > Mt Field, Hartz Mtns, Mt Wellington, Tasman Peninsula, Freycinet
> > Peninsula, Overland track... and more that I can't remember...
>
> A Lap of Tassie, eh? (quiet in the peanut gallery ...)

Yeah, but we took it nice and slow... a 3 week lap of Tassie.

T

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Bleve wrote:

>> A Lap of Tassie, eh? (quiet in the peanut gallery ...)

> Yeah, but we took it nice and slow... a 3 week lap of Tassie.

Sorry, just can't resist. That's extreme foreplay.

Theo

 

[warrwych]

warrwych wrote:
> Bleve Wrote:

>
> cos I still havent worked out how to do the multiple reply
> mulitcoloured thing, am going to summarise a response to our above
> Bleve



> 1. I thoroughly agree with you re: the wacky... er.. interesting
> coaching tips that crop up. Acidity, sleeping on your right side, not
> eating chocolate, not eating after 9 pm, not eating chocolate after 9
> pm.... As you say, it's a matter of sifting through and selecting what
> gels for you and being open-minded and flexible. It's important to be
> aware that our gems may not be our athletes' gems at times.

Agreed.

> 2. Friels does say weights for women & masters all year round, as
> opposed to weights in the off season only. But as you note Blevey,
> timing, quality and quantity are crucial. Friels periodises weights
> also. And he cites no research, which makes my academic hairs stand on
> end.
>
> 3. I would disagree with you re: core stability and everyone being
> strong enough already (unless I have misread you). As a dressage coach,
> I know the ability to control a horse and ride well comes from a very
> strong and stable core - a fact not often recognised by riders. I see
> LOTS& LOTS of riders who have sloppy cores, soft abs, weak backs and
> midsections. They cannot hold themselves up to sit on their horses
> properly, let alone go with the movement of the horse. Horse riders are
> little different from bike riders. Cyclists *hide* their weak
> midsections when they lean over the handle bars and let their upper
> bodies take the weight, and start the bob & rock when fatigue comes to
> visit.

There may be something in that, and certainly I recommend core work -
but I'm not mixing it up with what most people would call strength
training. Your experience with dressage riders may also be a
significantly different sample. I'm guessing that most horseriders
(recreational, that is) who decide to get into dressage may be a less
generally athletic group than those who decide to get into bike racing?
Thus the sample may be skewed?


> 4. Timing of weight training CAN impact on recovery - speaking from
> experience! Again, a well written program and some commonsense will
> factor this in. And as you say, you need to know what you want to
> achieve in the weight room - what are your weaknesses and what's the
> best way to diminish those?

Yep.

> 5. I think track cyclists are an interesting example of the use of
> weight training. Apparently Kerrie Meares has been seen to deadlift
> 150+kg. Maybe that's incidental to her cycling, maybe not? But trackies
> also hit the wieght room quite seriously at key points in their annual
> training schedule.

Track sprinters are a different breed to most cyclists - they are a
rare exception where brute strength is a significant factor in their
performances. Track sprinters are so different that they warrant a
whole different training regieme, and I wouldn't even pretend to have
the faintest idea as to how to train one! Given the nature of a match
sprint, a lot of psychout stuff goes on, and making big claims about
weights being pushed around could be part of that game, as much as
being used as performance enhancing.

i think you are underestimating the athleticism required to ride a horse! Most horse riders I know are fitter and stronger than the average person, and possibley stronger than some cyclists I know - but it's not easy comparing one sport's athletic requirements to another. Ddon't fall into the trap of thinking "dressage" and "rich, unfettered housewives", tho, which is a common thing to do.

How many cyclists did you see Bleve doing ATB bobbing their heads and swinging their hips and shoulders doing the cranky dance? And I would also say that many mtbers are strong than many roadies, but I am heading out of the discussion about gym work and cycling. Perhaps the problem in answering that is in providing a too generic response ie a yes, do it or no don't do it answer? We have actually agreed that training needs to be specific to the individual, their desired outcomes and their activity, so blanket answers are not really useful. I think Tam is proving a case in point in terms of her training regime - it's unique and it works for her. So if going to the gym works, do it with consideration for your own training requirements (ie what are my weaknesses and strengths and what should I be developing to improve those weaknesses?).

 

[Bleve]

warrwych wrote:

> i think you are underestimating the athleticism required to ride a
> horse!

Not at all. I know just how hard eventing is (both for the horse and
the rider!). My old man agists horses down at Baxter.

Most of his clients aren't what I'd call athletic. Some of them are
quite slim, but in terms of athleticism, they're not really in the same
league as racing cyclists. They don't spend 20 hours+ a week training.
I'd be suprised if many of them made it into double figures.

Elite level horseriders may well do so (and jockeys etc) though? This
is degenerating into apples & oranges. I think the comparo has ceased
being of any value by now though


> Most horse riders I know are fitter and stronger than the
> average person, and possibley stronger than some cyclists I know - but
> it's not easy comparing one sport's athletic requirements to another.
> Ddon't fall into the trap of thinking "dressage" and "rich, unfettered
> housewives", tho, which is a common thing to do.
>
> How many cyclists did you see Bleve doing ATB bobbing their heads and
> swinging their hips and shoulders doing the cranky dance?

Not suprisingly, very few, even towards the end when most of them are
knackered.
I didn't see the short ride riders though - so my sample is skewed
towards riders capable of riding 200km in one day. This may be a
factor.

> And I would
> also say that many mtbers are strong than many roadies,

Upper body, definatly. They need to be. Roadies have little need for
wrestling their bikes around technical courses. Even roady sprinters
don't need to be that strong - just strong enough to keep their hips
stable under full power. (upper body, I mean)

> but I am
> heading out of the discussion about gym work and cycling. Perhaps the
> problem in answering that is in providing a too generic response ie a
> yes, do it or no don't do it answer? We have actually agreed that
> training needs to be specific to the individual, their desired outcomes
> and their activity, so blanket answers are not really useful. I think
> Tam is proving a case in point in terms of her training regime - it's
> unique and it works for her. So if going to the gym works, do it with
> consideration for your own training requirements (ie what are my
> weaknesses and strengths and what should I be developing to improve
> those weaknesses?).

I'd still say, in general, don't do it (gym & weights). You make a
good argument, but respectfully, I don't agree. I think that for most
cyclists (the ones I see anyway) weight training in a gym is a waste of
their time, money and an unacceptable injury risk. That's a very big
"most" I might add. I am yet to actually work with someone who I
believe would benefit from weights work. My riders for cross training
I have doing a number of other things : some do yoga, some do ballroom
dancing (!), some swim and some go bushwalking. I take a few away over
their offseasons kayaking and cross country ski-ing.

There may be special cases (which Tam *may* fit into, what she chooses
to do is her call, but that's a tangent that we've explored more than
is of any benefit by now anyway - in many ways what Tam tells us she
does is quite ... unique ... I sometimes wonder if she has human DNA
She's certainly a long long way from being a typical cyclist, at least
in terms of the sort of people I work with). The only time I would be
suggesting gym and weights work is if someone has a specific weakness
that some weights work may assist - and even then I'd be looking at
other ways - as we've touched on, pilates, yoga, swimming ...

To get it back from these tangents, in my limited experience, I am yet
to see a rider who needed greater leg strength*. Some have (and do!)
need greater core strength, but that's not achieved by doing
traditional weights work in a gym. In many ways traditional weights
work in gyms - especially abs work - situps etc - are actually bad for
core strength. I recall an article by Emma Colson about this .. I'll
see if I can track it down...


* except for sprinting - and we do specific sprinting drills *on the
bike* to increase this

 

[Bleve]

Here's the article I was looking for :

http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/bic-aust-jan-feb05.pdf

 

[osc]

We have actually agreed that training needs to be specific to the individual, their desired outcomes and their activity, so blanket answers are not really useful.

I think this is the most important point and why it is ineffective to seek generic solutions in this sort of forum. I had extremely poor core strength for some unknown reason and that was despite being moderately fit and not overweight (72kg/179cm). I have worked hard on it with specific professional programmes and it is still not wonderful but I can (could) manage 280km+/pw and rides up to 140km so the cycling itself wasn't helping core strength. All it was doing was aggravating anatomical problems.

Back to much less miles now but certain that ineffective lower back and core muscles are contributing to my ongoing problems. I'll keep working on it.

Personalised programmes are the way to go, much like personalised bike fitment.

Stewart