Stupid wheel building question

[Mrbubl]

How often can you relace a hub? As long as it is willing to accept spokes and is mechanically sound?
This is a Mavic 571-2 on it's 4th generation-iteration of spokes.

[email protected]

 

[Jobst Brandt]

What's with the "Stupid wheel building question" intro? This is a straight forward valid question.

anonymous writes shyly:

> How often can you re-lace a hub? As long as it is willing to accept spokes and is mechanically
> sound? This is a Mavic 571-2 on it's 4th generation-iteration of spokes.

As long as the lacing pattern is the same so that the spokes lie in the same dimples caused by the
previous lacing, there is no problem. However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place
the new rim next to the old, and transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious but it
produces the best results, besides guaranteeing a durable set of spokes, ones that have been stress
relieved and used for many miles. I have been riding the same hubs and spokes for more than 200,000
miles by that method.

Reusing spokes that have been removed from a hub is not good because detecting whether a spoke was
an inbound or outbound, left or right rear, is not easy, and mixing them invites spoke failures.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Dick]

[email protected] proclaimed:

> I have been riding the same hubs and spokes for more than 200,000 miles by that method.
>

That's a lot of miles. Is that what you meant to say?

 

[Kbh]

>I have been riding the same hubs and spokes for more than 200,000 miles by that method.

I'm guessing this assumes you are using either the same rim or a rim with a similar ERD (+/-
2mm maybe?) .

Quite amazing though.

 

[Mrbubl]

I guess it's not a stupid question if you don't know the answer..........my apologies and I enjoy
your book and continue to build wheels with it's wisdom....

michael

<[email protected]> wrote in message news[email protected]...
> What's with the "Stupid wheel building question" intro? This is a straight forward valid question.
>
> anonymous writes shyly:
>
> > How often can you re-lace a hub? As long as it is willing to accept spokes and is mechanically
> > sound? This is a Mavic 571-2 on it's 4th generation-iteration of spokes.
>
> As long as the lacing pattern is the same so that the spokes lie in the same dimples caused by the
> previous lacing, there is no problem. However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place
> the new rim next to the old, and transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious but it
> produces the best results, besides guaranteeing a durable set of spokes, ones that have been
> stress relieved and used for many miles. I have been riding the same hubs and spokes for more than
> 200,000 miles by that method.
>
> Reusing spokes that have been removed from a hub is not good because detecting whether a spoke was
> an inbound or outbound, left or right rear, is not easy, and mixing them invites spoke failures.
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Harris]

KBH <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I have been riding the same hubs and spokes for more
> > than 200,000 miles by that method.

> I'm guessing this assumes you are using either the same rim or a rim with a similar ERD (+/- 2mm
> maybe?) .

I'm guessing they're MA-2s. <g>

Art Harris

 

[Jobst Brandt]

anonymous writes:

>> I have been riding the same hubs and spokes for more than 200,000 miles by that method.

> I'm guessing this assumes you are using either the same rim or a rim with a similar ERD (+/- 2mm
> maybe?). Quite amazing though.

Note that I said "by that method" and the method I described was to replace a rim using the same
hub and spokes. I have gone through many rims with these "wheels" and they work reliably. I'm
asked now and then why I don't scrap those old fashioned hubs and get something modern. I have a
certain attachment to these hubs and spokes. They were the ones on which I researched spoke
failures for my book.

Yes, I have a stash of MA-2 rims and it's sad that the are off the market.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

jobst brandt wrote:

> Note that I said "by that method" and the method I described was to replace a rim using the same
> hub and spokes. I have gone through many rims with these "wheels" and they work reliably.

Heh. That reminds me of "my grandfather's axe", which has had its head replaced 3 times, and its
handle replaced 4 times.

--
Benjamin Lewis

How you look depends on where you go.

 

[J-MAT]

Jobst:

Let me say thanks for writing the best
wheel book out there.

I bought a copy in 1990 when I first
started out on the road.

Using the info in the book, I have
built many sets of very strong wheels!!!

Thanks again!!!

 

[Matt O'Toole]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news[email protected]...

> As long as the lacing pattern is the same so that the
spokes lie in
> the same dimples caused by the previous lacing, there is
no problem.
> However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is,
place the new
> rim next to the old, and transfer spokes one at a time.
This is a bit
> more tedious but it produces the best results, besides
guaranteeing a
> durable set of spokes, ones that have been stress relieved
and used
> for many miles. I have been riding the same hubs and
spokes for more
> than 200,000 miles by that method.

That seems like a great method. With used spokes, you know they're well stress relieved. Now if we
could only get rim makers to quit changing their models around...

Matt O.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> > Note that I said "by that method" and the method I described was to replace a rim using the same
> > hub and spokes. I have gone through many rims with these "wheels" and they work reliably.
>
> Heh. That reminds me of "my grandfather's axe", which has had its head replaced 3 times, and its
> handle replaced 4 times.

Not quite; he's actually re-using the original hub and spokes. He says he's only replaced the rims,
nothing else.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

>>> Note that I said "by that method" and the method I described was to replace a rim using the same
>>> hub and spokes. I have gone through many rims with these "wheels" and they work reliably.
>>
>> Heh. That reminds me of "my grandfather's axe", which has had its head replaced 3 times, and its
>> handle replaced 4 times.
>
> Not quite; he's actually re-using the original hub and spokes. He says he's only replaced the
> rims, nothing else.

Yes, but it still reminded me of that old saw -- er, axe.

--
Benjamin Lewis

How you look depends on where you go.

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

mrbubl-<< How often can you relace a hub? As long as it is willing to accept spokes and is
mechanically sound? This is a Mavic 571-2 on it's 4th generation-iteration of spokes.

Lots of times but lace in the same direction...each time..use spoke washers if the holes are
getting long..

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[John Dacey]

On Thu, 01 May 2003 17:50:39 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
>transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious

Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
original location.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles Miami,
Florida 305-273-4440
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now in our twentieth year. Our catalogue of track equipment: seventh
year online

 

[Mike S.]

"John Dacey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 01 May 2003 17:50:39 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
> >transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious
>
> Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
> have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
> simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
> original location.

I have. The trick is to get all the nipples to where they're about to come off the spokes, THEN
start moving them around. More helpful hints: just like tensioning, de-tensioning needs to be done
in small increments (1-2 turns/time) till there isn't any tension on the spokes. 2. Put the new
nipples on the spokes loosely till you get all of them on.

Mike

 

[Antti Salonen]

John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 01 May 2003 17:50:39 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
>>transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious

> Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
> have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
> simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
> original location.

Keep in mind that that 20 mm is added to the much smaller lateral component, so the change in spoke
length is still small. I haven't done the math, but it must be less than 5 mm. If you loosen the
nipples first it's certainly doable, and indeed practical.

-as

 

[Jobst Brandt]

John Dacey <[email protected]> writes:

>> However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
>> transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious

> Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
> have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
> simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
> original location.

I don't understand what you are imagining. Unscrew one nipple at a time, move its spoke to new rim,
put a drop of oil in the nipple and screw it back on the spoke. If the nipple goes on tight, use a
new nipple, then repeat until all spokes are in the new rim. Then tighten and true the wheel.

Yes, that's the way I've done it many times on my own wheels and on others. However, I don't run a
bicycle repair shop.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Jay Beattie]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> John Dacey <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >> However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
> >> transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious
>
> > Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
> > have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
> > simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
> > original location.
>
> I don't understand what you are imagining. Unscrew one nipple at a time, move its spoke to new
> rim, put a drop of oil in the nipple and screw it back on the spoke. If the nipple goes on
> tight, use a new nipple, then repeat until all spokes are in the new rim. Then tighten and true
> the wheel.
>
> Yes, that's the way I've done it many times on my own wheels and on others. However, I don't run a
> bicycle repair shop.

Hardly "daunting drudgery." It is the perfect activity for T.V. time, or visiting in-laws. --
Jay Beattie.

 

[Chris Zacho "Th]

Jobst Brandt wrote:

"However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious but it produces the best results, besides
guaranteeing a durable set of spokes, ones that have been stress relieved and used for many miles. I
have been riding the same hubs and spokes for more than 200,000 miles by that method. "

Good idea! I'll have to try it next time I build a wheel. Which is rare, my wheels seem to last
longer than they have a right too. But then, I'm not a racer, and not very heavy.

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

 

[Andres Muro]

As jobst suggests, it ain't hard at all. Put the old wheel next to the new rim. and tape them both
together so they will not move. loosen all the niples on the old wheel. then, you can move spokes
one at the time in no time while you watch tv, listen to music, to car talk, or to your wife nagging
at you to clean the kitchen and to stop screwing with your bike. turn the nipples on the new rim the
same amount of turns per spoke, only a few turns. you don't want to get nipples tight while
transfering spokes. when you are done transfering spokes, the wheel will be pretty straight already.
Tighten the nipples the same amount for the front wheel, or proportianlly more on the drive side for
a rear wheel. you'll have perfect wheel in no time.

Andres

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> John Dacey <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >> However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
> >> transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious
>
> > Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
> > have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
> > simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
> > original location.
>
> I don't understand what you are imagining. Unscrew one nipple at a time, move its spoke to new
> rim, put a drop of oil in the nipple and screw it back on the spoke. If the nipple goes on
> tight, use a new nipple, then repeat until all spokes are in the new rim. Then tighten and true
> the wheel.
>
> Yes, that's the way I've done it many times on my own wheels and on others. However, I don't run a
> bicycle repair shop.
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA