Stupid wheel building question



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> On Thu, 01 May 2003 17:50:39 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
> >However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
> >transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious

"John Dacey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
> have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
> simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
> original location.

Actually, John, I have done that. Hundreds of times. The last time I did, the service charge was $4,
a steel rim was $4.95 retail and we commonly did several jobs like that every day.

Now we hardy ever do that. Tedium indeed. But there's no reason it cannot be done if one's
time is ample.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
>>On Thu, 01 May 2003 17:50:39 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
>>>transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious

A usually reliable source wrote:

>>Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
>>have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
>>simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
>>original location.

A Muzi wrote:
>
> Actually, John, I have done that. Hundreds of times. The last time I did, the service charge was
> $4, a steel rim was $4.95 retail and we commonly did several jobs like that every day.

I occasionally do this on my own stuff, but it's not cost-effective at shop rate.

The trick which John doesn't know is that you first move all of the spokes that run to the flange on
the side of the new rim, which actually _reduces_ the tension; then you move the other bunch.

It's also a helpful to tape the rims together for stability.

Sheldon "Tedium Laudamus" Brown +--------------------------------------------------+
| My son George has written a Trombone Concerto | You can hear it at http://sheldonbrown.com/mp3 |
+--------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
On Fri, 02 May 2003 12:12:06 -0400 John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 01 May 2003 17:50:39 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
>>transfer spokes one at a time. This is a bit more tedious
>
>Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
>have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
>simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
>original location.

It's been many year since I actually worked at a bike shop, and that was only for about 8 years, and
even then I didn't do much of our commercial wheel building. But, I've probably done hundreds of
wheels this way, and watched while thousands were done likewise by others, many of them beginners
for whom the stringing and lacing of a wheel from scratch would have been out of their grasp.

I find it hard to imagine how someone in the bicycle business could have been unaware of this
completely standard technique.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
 
Peter Chisholm writes:

> Have you actually ever done this? Quite apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I
> have to question whether you can achieve even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples
> simultaneously while having a significant number of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their
> original location.

> This is easy to do, but ya gotta loosen all the spokes first, it cannot be done on a tensioned
> wheel...

Not so. Although it doesn't do the old rim any good (but that doesn't matter) spokes need not first
be loosened. They will be loose by the time about 1/3 the spokes are transferred to the new rim,
that is unless the new rim is securely attached to the old one can move off center. Transferred
spokes will at first even stick out of the new rim a large amount. I get the impression that replies
to this subject are theoretical visualizations rather than based on practice because the concerns
expressed are not what occurs, and are only mental images.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo) wrote:

> Jobst-
> > I get the impression that replies to this subject are theoretical visualizations rather than
> > based on practice because the concerns expressed are not what occurs, and are only mental
> > images.
>
> Impression wrong, on a tensioned wheel, you cannot reach the other rim on the first spokes, but if
> ya loosen the spokes a wee bit,, ya can.

I've always loosened all the spokes first (never thought about doing it with tensioned spokes), but
I'd bet that if you do the flange nearest to the new rim first, they'd reach. After you've moved a
few spokes, I'd imagine the wheel would be pretty slack.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

> I occasionally do this on my own stuff, but it's not cost-effective at shop rate.

I think this is the point. For me to do this with my sheels at home, where time is not money, is one
thing. I preserve my nicely stress-relieved spokes keeping them in their identical relative
positions and save myself, what, $25 for new spokes? But it takes time (about an hour IME, but I'm
also not trying to be fast; I bet Jobst or Sheldon could do it faster).

A shop is much more likely to just cut the old spokes out and replace both spokes and rim. Time is
of the essence here, they have too much work to get done to spend an hour on one wheel.
 
> Jobst-<< I get the impression that replies to this subject are theoretical visualizations
> rather than based on practice because the concerns expressed are not what occurs, and are only
> mental images.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Impression wrong, on a tensioned wheel, you cannot reach the other rim on
the
> first spokes, but if ya loosen the spokes a wee bit,, ya can.

Huh? Have you done this? I have and all too many times. Of course you can reach on the first spoke!
The new rim just falls down the first spoke.

The first 16 or so spokes fit quite easily as they can stick up an inch or more through the rim and
allow one a good grasp of the nipples with no tool whatsoever.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
On Sat, 03 May 2003 10:36:17 -0500, Jim Adney <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 02 May 2003 12:12:06 -0400 John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>in reply to what [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>However, a better method is to leave the wheel as is, place the new rim next to the old, and
>>>transfer spokes one at a time.
>>
>>apart from the daunting drudgery of what you describe, I have to question whether you can achieve
>>even partial engagement of all the spoke nipples simultaneously while having a significant number
>>of spokes oriented 20 mm (or so) from their original location.
>
>I've probably done hundreds of wheels this way, and watched while thousands were done likewise by
>others, many of them beginners for whom the stringing and lacing of a wheel from scratch would have
>been out of their grasp.
>
>I find it hard to imagine how someone in the bicycle business could have been unaware of this
>completely standard technique.

Quite easily, actually. The scope of my work here has always been limited to enthusiast-level bikes,
so I lead a quite sheltered life: one of pampered luxury, free from skewed priorities where a
handful of spokes would regularly be worth more than a technician's time to try to re-use them. I
can understand that Jobst would develop a sentimental attachment to his spokes and will therefore
keep them in service as long as they're able. I can also understand why frugal home wheelbuilders
would sometimes reuse spokes if they can.

However, I cannot fathom doing this on a regular basis at the shop level. Wheels brought to shops
for rebuilding will often be the worst candidates to reuse their spokes. Apart from the questionable
pedigree of the spokes themselves, the nipples are often seized by corrosion or befouled by some
threadlock concoction that would make the already laborious grunt work of unscrewing each one even
more time consuming and inefficient. The combination of the uncertain history of the old spokes and
the cost of time frittered away trying to unscrew each one negates most "savings" one might have
from not buying new spokes.

As amazed as you may be that I would be ignorant of the fact that transferring spokes seriatim into
another rim is a practice common in some shops, I am no less so that someone could repeat this
process "hundreds" of times without having the mysteries of a more efficient lacing procedure
revealed to him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles Miami,
Florida 305-273-4440
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now in our twentieth year. Our catalogue of track equipment: seventh
year online
 
Tim McNamara writes:

>>> I get the impression that replies to this subject are theoretical visualizations rather than
>>> based on practice because the concerns expressed are not what occurs, and are only mental
>>> images.

>> Impression wrong, on a tensioned wheel, you cannot reach the other rim on the first spokes, but
>> if ya loosen the spokes a wee bit,, ya can.

> I've always loosened all the spokes first (never thought about doing it with tensioned spokes),
> but I'd bet that if you do the flange nearest to the new rim first, they'd reach. After you've
> moved a few spokes, I'd imagine the wheel would be pretty slack.

Hold the phone! When the first spoke is transferred you can slide the new rim down the spoke to the
hub. This can be done with the first few spokes until more than half the spokes have been
transferred. On the other hand, I don't tape the rims together either but even that doesn't cause
the problems described. As I said, this whole thing is based on erroneous visual images, not on
practice. I am even more amazed at people who claim to have done this often.

What's going on here!!!

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
Tim McNamara writes:

>>> I get the impression that replies to this subject are theoretical visualizations rather than
>>> based on practice because the concerns expressed are not what occurs, and are only mental
>>> images.

>> Impression wrong, on a tensioned wheel, you cannot reach the other rim on the first spokes, but
>> if ya loosen the spokes a wee bit,, ya can.

> I've always loosened all the spokes first (never thought about doing it with tensioned spokes),
> but I'd bet that if you do the flange nearest to the new rim first, they'd reach. After you've
> moved a few spokes, I'd imagine the wheel would be pretty slack.

Hold the phone! When the first spoke is transferred you can slide the new rim down the spoke to the
hub. This can be done with the first few spokes until more than half the spokes have been
transferred. On the other hand, I don't tape the rims together either but even that doesn't cause
the problems described. As I said, this whole thing is based on erroneous visual images, not on
practice. I am even more amazed at people who claim to have done this often and believe that it is
difficult.

What's going on here!!!

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
John Dacey writes:

> Quite easily, actually. The scope of my work here has always been limited to enthusiast-level
> bikes, so I lead a quite sheltered life: one of pampered luxury, free from skewed priorities where
> a handful of spokes would regularly be worth more than a technician's time to try to re-use them.

This has nothing to do with whether it is economical. It is simply something that should occur to
the technically attuned who work with their own or other's bicycles. If a specific spoke length is
not available, this is a logical way to avoid sending the customer away until another day or week.

> I can understand that Jobst would develop a sentimental attachment to his spokes and will
> therefore keep them in service as long as they're able. I can also understand why frugal home
> wheelbuilders would sometimes reuse spokes if they can.

Trying to give this a tear-jerk sentimentality with no practical reason is a dodge, a big excuse or
both. If spokes have served well, transferring them to a new wheel is a better guarantee of building
a durable wheel than using new ones. Therefore, people who have the time to do so are better off
reusing the spokes (without taking them out of the hub) than to buy new ones and start from scratch.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
On Mon, 05 May 2003 01:29:24 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>John Dacey writes:
>
>> I lead a quite sheltered life: one of pampered luxury, free from skewed priorities where a
>> handful of spokes would regularly be worth more than a technician's time to try to re-use them.
>
>This has nothing to do with whether it is economical. It is simply something that should occur to
>the technically attuned who work with their own or other's bicycles. If a specific spoke length is
>not available, this is a logical way to avoid sending the customer away until another day or week.

What if this, what if that. You are looking for loopholes, seeking to cite examples of more
exceptional circumstances than will normally be the case and build your rule around those
exceptions. What would not be unusual, however, would be to find that a wheel dropped off for
service is fitted with a complement of spokes at the end of their fatigue limit (e.g., replace a
broken spoke for a customer and have other spokes in the wheel fail as you bring the wheel back
to true). If you charge a customer to rebuild his wheel, he has a reasonable expectation that it
will give him a normal service life. I can't give that assurance when building with spokes of
uncertain history. I hardly need to recite to you the litany of ways that spoke integrity is too
often compromised by semi-skilled wheelbuilders. It's an unacceptable risk (for me *and* the
customer) to use those spokes in a new build unless there's truly no hope of finding new spokes
in a timely fashion.

>> I can understand that Jobst would develop a sentimental attachment to his spokes and will
>> therefore keep them in service as long as they're able. I can also understand why frugal home
>> wheelbuilders would sometimes reuse spokes if they can.

>Trying to give this a tear-jerk sentimentality with no practical reason is a dodge, a big excuse or
>both. If spokes have served well, transferring them to a new wheel is a better guarantee of
>building a durable wheel than using new ones. Therefore, people who have the time to do so are
>better off reusing the spokes (without taking them out of the hub) than to buy new ones and start
>from scratch.

The operative phrase here is " people with the time to do so", and I'd add "people who have spokes
in which they can be confident". You've created a perception that spokes in a newly built wheel
normally have the life expectancy of a fruitfly and that ones of "proven" durability are rare
treasures worth taking homeric measures to recover for reuse. In my experience, with good quality
spokes and with good building technique (and I give you sincere thanks for your work in this area),
spoke failures in new wheels are now so infrequent as to not merit such heroics. Don't be shy - give
yourself some credit: stress relief works and reliable spokes are no longer a scarce commodity.

-------------------------------
http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
twentieth year. Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
-------------------------------
 
Jobst Brandt wrote:

> If spokes have served well, transferring them to a new wheel is a better guarantee of building a
> durable wheel than using new ones. Therefore, people who have the time to do so are better off
> reusing the spokes (without taking them out of the hub) than to buy new ones and start from
> scratch.

This is probably true for your situation, working with a wheel that you built yourself and know the
history of, on your own time.

When a customer comes in with a used wheel, I have no way of knowing the history of the spokes. They
may not have been properly stress relieved, and may thus be on the verge of fatigue failure.

Then again, maybe a spoke or two had broken, and been replaced with spokes of slightly different
length...this leads to time-consuming fiddling since you can't count on getting all spokes to the
same starting length by the usual methods.

Re-rimming is perfectly reasonable for the mechanically adept cyclist, but generally is not a good
option for a shop mechanic.

It is most popular with folks who think that lacing is the hard part of wheelbuilding, and are
intimidated by fear of getting the pattern wrong.

Of course, if the wheel is tied and soldered, you can save a lot of time and trouble by doing a rim
replacemen... ;-)

Sheldon "New Is Faster And Easier" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------+
| "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, | it might be, and if it were so, it would
| be; | but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" | --Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking Glass" |
+---------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
My god - if we just transferred spokes, instead of cutting them AFTER taking off the tape, what
would we use the dartboard for?

Tony

Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I occasionally do this on my own stuff, but it's not cost-effective at shop rate.
>
> I think this is the point. For me to do this with my sheels at home, where time is not money, is
> one thing. I preserve my nicely stress-relieved spokes keeping them in their identical relative
> positions and save myself, what, $25 for new spokes? But it takes time (about an hour IME, but I'm
> also not trying to be fast; I bet Jobst or Sheldon could do it faster).
>
> A shop is much more likely to just cut the old spokes out and replace both spokes and rim. Time is
> of the essence here, they have too much work to get done to spend an hour on one wheel.
 
On Mon, 05 May 2003 01:27:49 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>Tim McNamara writes:
>
>>>> I get the impression that replies to this subject are theoretical visualizations rather than
>>>> based on practice because the concerns expressed are not what occurs, and are only mental
>>>> images.
>
>>> Impression wrong, on a tensioned wheel, you cannot reach the other rim on the first spokes, but
>>> if ya loosen the spokes a wee bit,, ya can.
>
>> I've always loosened all the spokes first (never thought about doing it with tensioned spokes),
>> but I'd bet that if you do the flange nearest to the new rim first, they'd reach. After you've
>> moved a few spokes, I'd imagine the wheel would be pretty slack.
>
>Hold the phone! When the first spoke is transferred you can slide the new rim down the spoke to the
>hub. This can be done with the first few spokes until more than half the spokes have been
>transferred. On the other hand, I don't tape the rims together either but even that doesn't cause
>the problems described. As I said, this whole thing is based on erroneous visual images, not on
>practice. I am even more amazed at people who claim to have done this often and believe that it is
>difficult.
>
I didn't know where to interject because this thread has gone all over the place...

I have done this many times... it is easy... it requires very little thought...

Personally when I build a wheel from scratch I build a very good wheel ... faster than I would be
able to by swapping rims using this method.

But is the wheel worth MY time? Why not simply have the Minimum wage shop kid do the spoke transfer?
That way he or she gets some basic experience with wheels and can save a skilled mechanic from doing
scut work.

it is simple econonomics in this instance... the customer gets to save the money new spokes would
cost and the shop gets to save the time the skilled mechanic would spend tieing the new wheel...
(NOTE: the final tensioning / trueing is still done by the skilled worker)

Finally ... when simply swapping rims on one of my bikes or my wife I use this method so I can
re-use the spokes ...for all the reasons Jobst mentions. Surprisingly I found than many of my
customers also understood the benefits of reusing spokes... Maybe they had read Jobsts' book...
 
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