Sturmey Archer S3C

[Meld_das]

I have a Sturmey Archer S3C three-speed coaster hub. The gears work OK, but the whole thing seizes
up if I apply too much pressure to the coaster brake. I can find nothing about this in the S-A
assembly instructions. It pretty much dooms the hub for me.

Is this a characteristic of the S3C or something I can fix with a proper adjustment?

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On 6 Jul 2003 18:57:36 -0700, [email protected] (Meld_Das) wrote:

>I have a Sturmey Archer S3C three-speed coaster hub. The gears work OK, but the whole thing seizes
>up if I apply too much pressure to the coaster brake. I can find nothing about this in the S-A
>assembly instructions. It pretty much dooms the hub for me.
>
>Is this a characteristic of the S3C or something I can fix with a proper adjustment?

Sheldon says about this hub:

|Coaster brake. After Consumer Reports rated the TCW IV "unacceptable" due |to the fact that the
brake would fail completely if the shift cable was |misadjusted, Sturmey-Archer completely
redesigned their Tricoaster, so |that the braking was independent of the gear-change. This model is
safer |than the TCW series, but is still prone to failure.

Are there maybe any worn bits anywhere in the hub that could jam when backpedalled?

Jasper

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Someone asked:

>>I have a Sturmey Archer S3C three-speed coaster hub. The gears work OK, but the whole thing seizes
>>up if I apply too much pressure to the coaster brake. I can find nothing about this in the S-A
>>assembly instructions. It pretty much dooms the hub for me.
>>
>>Is this a characteristic of the S3C or something I can fix with a proper adjustment?

Jasper Janssen quoted me:

> Sheldon says about this hub:
>
> |Coaster brake. After Consumer Reports rated the TCW IV "unacceptable" due |to the fact that the
> brake would fail completely if the shift cable was |misadjusted, Sturmey-Archer completely
> redesigned their Tricoaster, so |that the braking was independent of the gear-change. This model
> is safer |than the TCW series, but is still prone to failure.
>
> Are there maybe any worn bits anywhere in the hub that could jam when backpedalled?

When these fail, it is not generally the fault of "wear" but usually is because some part inside is
broken. They're generally not worth fixing, it's a fundamentally flawed design.

Sturmey-Archer hubs without brakes are generally quite reliable, but if you insist on a multispeed
coaster brake, you're much better off with Shimano or SRAM.

Sheldon "Epicyclic" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------+
| As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, | they are not certain; and as far as they
| are certain, | they do not refer to reality. --Albert Einstein |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Werehatrack]

On 6 Jul 2003 18:57:36 -0700, [email protected] (Meld_Das) may have said:

>I have a Sturmey Archer S3C three-speed coaster hub. The gears work OK, but the whole thing seizes
>up if I apply too much pressure to the coaster brake. I can find nothing about this in the S-A
>assembly instructions. It pretty much dooms the hub for me.
>
>Is this a characteristic of the S3C or something I can fix with a proper adjustment?

It's been about 20 years since I last rode one, but I seem to recall that it was much easier to get
the coaster brake to lock on that model than on any single-speed coaster of my experience. If it's
just a case of brake lockup, and not of the hub becoming unshiftable or locked to the point of
requiring additional attention before you can ride off, then I'd say that you've just discovered the
distressing side of normal behavior for that hub. I used a bike with one of those to deliver a paper
route in the 1960s. I recall that the lockup is common, and that it's worse if the hub is not kept
well lubed. That oil fill nipple is there for a reason; use it. All that aside, I will note that I
personally rolled over a three-digit odometer on one of those hubs about 4 times, and it was still
functional four years ago when I finally let the bike go at a garage sale. Your mileage may vary.

---
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.

Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 11:28:41 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

[someone asked about the S3C hub]
>
>When these fail, it is not generally the fault of "wear" but usually is because some part inside is
>broken. They're generally not worth fixing, it's a fundamentally flawed design.

Well, if they're parts that are the same as in an AW, it'd probably be fairly easy to get
replacements. At least here, last time I felt compelled to service a 3sp-with-drum-brake (which I
think use the same internal mech as the AW?) it was quite easy to get new pawls and springs and such
and even a starclutch at the LBS.

>Sturmey-Archer hubs without brakes are generally quite reliable, but if you insist on a multispeed
>coaster brake, you're much better off with Shimano or SRAM.

I see a fair amount of old Sachs Torpedo 3-plus-coasters around here. They're also cheap as hell,
going on ebay.de for well under $20.

Jasper

 

[Sheldon Brown]

I wrote:

> [someone asked about the S3C hub]
>
>>When these fail, it is not generally the fault of "wear" but usually is because some part inside
>>is broken. They're generally not worth fixing, it's a fundamentally flawed design.

Jasper Janssen theorized:

> Well, if they're parts that are the same as in an AW, it'd probably be fairly easy to get
> replacements.

A few of the parts are interchangeable, but those aren't the ones that break.

> At least here, last time I felt compelled to service a 3sp-with-drum-brake (which I think use the
> same internal mech as the AW?) it was quite easy to get new pawls and springs and such and even a
> starclutch at the LBS.

Yes, the ABC drum-brake hub has all internal parts interchangeable with the AW except for the planet
cage. Very different from the infamous S3C.

>>Sturmey-Archer hubs without brakes are generally quite reliable, but if you insist on a multispeed
>>coaster brake, you're much better off with Shimano or SRAM.
>
> I see a fair amount of old Sachs Torpedo 3-plus-coasters around here. They're also cheap as hell,
> going on ebay.de for well under $20.

Yes, those are now called "SRAM." Trigger shifters for those are no longer available, only
twist-grips. They don't work with Sturmey-Archer triggers.

Sheldon "Planetary" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------+
| If you only know Mussorgski's Pictures at an Exhibition | from the Ravel or Stokowski "colorized"
| versions, (with | orchestra) seek out the original piano solo version. | I think it is much
| superior! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Marcus Coles]

Sheldon Brown wrote:

>> I see a fair amount of old Sachs Torpedo 3-plus-coasters around here. They're also cheap as hell,
>> going on ebay.de for well under $20.
>
>
> Yes, those are now called "SRAM." Trigger shifters for those are no longer available, only
> twist-grips. They don't work with Sturmey-Archer triggers.
>
>

Is it possible to use Sturmey-Archer 3 speed cables with the Sachs Torpedo 3 speed and
trigger shifter?

The cable on my circa 1970 setup is looking pretty ratty and if the shifters are not available I
imagine the cables will soon be gone as well.

Thanks,

Marcus

 

[Meld_das]

Here is more info on the problem:

1. The hub is well oiled, but improperly adjusted. Following the links at Sheldon's site to a S3C
assembly detail, I learned that I was not obeying the supremacy of the right side bearing cone.
Once I adjusted it correctly, the brake does not seem to jam up.

2. But when it did jam up before this repair, I mean it jammed up good. The wheel would not budge.
The crank would not budge. The shifter would not budge. This meant carrying the bike home.

Meanwhile, I "won" a spiffy AW hub on eBay, and will try it out. There are already decent hand
brakes on the bike, owing to not trusting the S3C coaster brake. Maybe coaster brakes are something
that you either love or hate.

Thanks for the many helpful words!

 

[Sheldon Brown]

It was written:

>>> I see a fair amount of old Sachs Torpedo 3-plus-coasters around here. They're also cheap as
>>> hell, going on ebay.de for well under $20.

I commented:

>> Yes, those are now called "SRAM." Trigger shifters for those are no longer available, only
>> twist-grips. They don't work with Sturmey-Archer triggers.

Marcus Coles asked:

> Is it possible to use Sturmey-Archer 3 speed cables with the Sachs Torpedo 3 speed and trigger
> shifter?

No.

> The cable on my circa 1970 setup is looking pretty ratty and if the shifters are not available I
> imagine the cables will soon be gone as well.

I have them. If you have the old type with the skinny indicator spindle, you'll need to upgrade to
the fatter indicator spindle.

Sheldon "Torpedo" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------+
| One man's theology is another man's belly laugh. | --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Marcus Coles]

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> It was written:
>
>>>> I see a fair amount of old Sachs Torpedo 3-plus-coasters around here. They're also cheap as
>>>> hell, going on ebay.de for well under $20.
>
>
> I commented:
>
>>> Yes, those are now called "SRAM." Trigger shifters for those are no longer available, only
>>> twist-grips. They don't work with Sturmey-Archer triggers.
>
>
> Marcus Coles asked:
>
>> Is it possible to use Sturmey-Archer 3 speed cables with the Sachs Torpedo 3 speed and trigger
>> shifter?
>
>
> No.
>
>> The cable on my circa 1970 setup is looking pretty ratty and if the shifters are not available I
>> imagine the cables will soon be gone as well.
>
>
> I have them. If you have the old type with the skinny indicator spindle, you'll need to upgrade to
> the fatter indicator spindle.
>

Thanks for the info Sheldon.

More Questions.

What is involved with changing to the fatter indicator spindle? This one looks pretty skinny to my
eye about 2mm in diameter. I see the current units look like they have a small box at the end of the
axle, this one looks like a S-A clone with an exposed chain.

Around this neck of the woods bike shops seem to stock Sturmey-Archer or nothing at all when it
comes to hub gear pieces.

Marcus

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Marcus Coles asked:

>>> The cable on my circa 1970 [Torpedo] setup is looking pretty ratty and if the shifters are not
>>> available I imagine the cables will soon be gone as well.

I replied:

>> I have them. If you have the old type with the skinny indicator spindle, you'll need to upgrade
>> to the fatter indicator spindle.

Marcus:

> What is involved with changing to the fatter indicator spindle?

Just unscrew it and screw the new one in.

> This one looks pretty skinny to my eye about 2mm in diameter.

That'll be the old type. The new style is more like 5 mm.

Sheldon "Dreigang" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------------+
| No state has an inherent right to survive through | conscript troops and, in the long run, no
| state ever has. | --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:40:23 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote: I wrote:
>> Well, if they're parts that are the same as in an AW, it'd probably be fairly easy to get
>> replacements.
>
>A few of the parts are interchangeable, but those aren't the ones that break.

Ain't that always the case? It's just Murphy. Well, that and the AW is as close to bombproof as
people could get for decades on end, so that design was pretty well crystallised.

>> I see a fair amount of old Sachs Torpedo 3-plus-coasters around here. They're also cheap as hell,
>> going on ebay.de for well under $20.
>
>Yes, those are now called "SRAM." Trigger shifters for those are no longer available, only
>twist-grips. They don't work with Sturmey-Archer triggers.

Hmm, well, getting a supply of old beat up Torpedo 3 triggers shouldn't be too hard around here, but
welltreated ones is a different matter entirely. Most people who treat their bike well have an
ABC/front drum combo (on the 80s and later ones, often a Sachs front instead of the real thing --
cheaper or something), and Torpedos are almost all the 3-sp/coaster version, which for some reason
only ends up with people who abuse their bikes. There is still the occasional Torpedo/drum brake
combo, as well, but relatively rare.

Jasper

 

[A Muzi]

"Meld_Das" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a Sturmey Archer S3C three-speed coaster hub. The gears work OK, but the whole thing seizes
> up if I apply too much pressure to the coaster brake. I can find nothing about this in the S-A
> assembly instructions. It pretty much dooms the hub for me.
>
> Is this a characteristic of the S3C or something I can fix with a proper adjustment?
That's a symptom of a loose bearing adjustment and/or worn brake shoes. Adjust ( from the left side)
to a trace of play at the rim and try it . f no better, get a new brake shoe for it.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971