STX Cantis -) V-brakes?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Mathias Koerber, Jan 24, 2004.

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  1. Hi Group,

    Currently my TREK X01 ('99 or '00 model, not sure, it's candy gold) is equipped with STX Cantilever
    brakes (modified with straddle wire instead of the triangle setup)

    I am getting tired of adjusting these everytime after removing/reinstalling the brakepads (KoolStop
    EagleII) for cleaning purposes (they tend to accumulate a lot of street sludge which greatly
    decreases the grip of the brakes when wet).

    Would V-brakes be a good alternative to the Cantis? I understand that V-brakes stay adjusted even if
    the brakepads are removed and reinstalled (unless new brakepads are fitted which obviously would
    require some adjustment).

    Are there any other dis-/advantages I shoudl take into account?

    But more importantly: My Brifters are Shimano RSX STIs. These seem to work well with the cantis.
    Will they work with V-brakes?

    Are there different types of V-brakes, and if so what should I look out for?

    any info is appreciated Mathias
     
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  2. Dan Daniel

    Dan Daniel Guest

    On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:30:07 +0800, "Mathias Koerber"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Hi Group,
    >
    >Currently my TREK X01 ('99 or '00 model, not sure, it's candy gold) is equipped with STX Cantilever
    >brakes (modified with straddle wire instead of the triangle setup)
    >
    >I am getting tired of adjusting these everytime after removing/reinstalling the brakepads (KoolStop
    >EagleII) for cleaning purposes (they tend to accumulate a lot of street sludge which greatly
    >decreases the grip of the brakes when wet).
    >

    Have you tried the Koolstop salmon pads? I have no problems with wet, sludge, etc. with them.

    Also, why do you remove the brake pads for cleaning? On my canti bikes I can pull the wheel and get
    lots of access to the pad for deglazing, sanding, etc.

    I am using the solid brake pads, with a metal post. Maybe you have a different setup where removing
    the pads is necessary.
     
  3. On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:39:40 +0000, Dan Daniel wrote:

    > Have you tried the Koolstop salmon pads? I have no problems with wet, sludge, etc. with them.

    Im am riding Kool Stop dual compounds in fact. Still, very low traction in the wet. it does get
    better after riding in the rain a while (after the sludge gets washed off), but never really
    acceptable..

    > Also, why do you remove the brake pads for cleaning? On my canti bikes I can pull the wheel and
    > get lots of access to the pad for deglazing, sanding, etc.

    Hmm. Sanding never occurred to me.. Will give it a try.. I do find that sludge gets stuck in the
    grooves which is very hard to get rid of..

    > I am using the solid brake pads, with a metal post. Maybe you have a different setup where
    > removing the pads is necessary.

    Yes, Eagle IIs with non-threaded post..
     
  4. Dan Daniel

    Dan Daniel Guest

    On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:43:05 +0800, "Mathias Koerber"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:39:40 +0000, Dan Daniel wrote:
    >
    >> Have you tried the Koolstop salmon pads? I have no problems with wet, sludge, etc. with them.
    >
    >Im am riding Kool Stop dual compounds in fact. Still, very low traction in the wet. it does get
    >better after riding in the rain a while (after the sludge gets washed off), but never really
    >acceptable..
    >

    I set up my cantilever pads with some toe-in. When I looked at the dual compound pads, it seemed
    that most of my braking would be on the black compound. Which defeats the whole strength of the
    salmon compound.

    Try full salmon, not dual? I have the dual on a road bike because I bought the full Koolstop shoes
    to replace some bad pads, and I am not impressed over all, and definitely not impressed in the rain.

    >> Also, why do you remove the brake pads for cleaning? On my canti bikes I can pull the wheel and
    >> get lots of access to the pad for deglazing, sanding, etc.
    >
    >Hmm. Sanding never occurred to me.. Will give it a try.. I do find that sludge gets stuck in the
    >grooves which is very hard to get rid of..
    >

    Whatever happened to Mathauser? Plain blocks are the best. I'm going to run my Mathauser road pads
    down to the metal holders and hope that I can find some NOS somewhere in the meantime (Rivendell
    says 'out of stock').

    I'll be interested to see if any of the more knowledgable people here have thoughts on the sludge in
    the grooves. Does it really hurt? Is it solid enough to be abrasive? Does it grab and hold larger
    pieces that grind and scrape the rim?

    >> I am using the solid brake pads, with a metal post. Maybe you have a different setup where
    >> removing the pads is necessary.
    >
    >Yes, Eagle IIs with non-threaded post..

    Yep, my canti pads. Try the full salmon?

    Or see what others say about switching to v-brakes. You'll still have the pad compound and pad
    design issues, though.
     
  5. Mathias Koerber wrote:

    > Hi Group,
    >
    > Currently my TREK X01 ('99 or '00 model, not sure, it's candy gold) is equipped with STX
    > Cantilever brakes (modified with straddle wire instead of the triangle setup)
    >
    > I am getting tired of adjusting these everytime after removing/reinstalling the brakepads
    > (KoolStop EagleII) for cleaning purposes (they tend to accumulate a lot of street sludge which
    > greatly decreases the grip of the brakes when wet).
    >
    > Would V-brakes be a good alternative to the Cantis? I understand that V-brakes stay adjusted even
    > if the brakepads are removed and reinstalled (unless new brakepads are fitted which obviously
    > would require some adjustment).
    >
    > Are there any other dis-/advantages I shoudl take into account?
    >
    > But more importantly: My Brifters are Shimano RSX STIs. These seem to work well with the cantis.
    > Will they work with V-brakes?
    >
    > Are there different types of V-brakes, and if so what should I look out for?

    Your existing brake levers will give a reasonable feel and pad-to-rim distance if they pull enough
    cable (more than 20mm is good). If not, Dia-Compe 287V levers work with V-brakes but you'd then need
    separate shifters (bar-end or down tube). There are "mini V brakes" which require less cable pull,
    made by Tektro, and these are a more straightforward upgrade.

    Personally I would avoid the LX/XT/XTR V brakes with the parallel push mechanism. This sounds like a
    good idea in theory, because it stops the pads slipping below the rim when they wear down.
    Unfortunately these brakes tend to squeal like a stuck pig when any play develops in the pivots. The
    Deore V brakes don't have parallel push and nor do a lot of the non-Shimano ones.
     
  6. On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:55:58 +0000, Dan Daniel wrote:

    >>Im am riding Kool Stop dual compounds in fact. Still, very low traction in the wet. it does get
    >>better after riding in the rain a while (after the sludge gets washed off), but never really
    >>acceptable..
    >>
    > I set up my cantilever pads with some toe-in. When I looked at the dual compound pads, it seemed
    > that most of my braking would be on the black compound. Which defeats the whole strength of the
    > salmon compound.
    >
    > Try full salmon, not dual? I have the dual on a road bike because I bought the full Koolstop
    > shoes to replace some bad pads, and I am not impressed over all, and definitely not impressed in
    > the rain.

    Thanks. I had a pair of Salmons lying around and put that on the front now. Will see if that helps
    in the wet. In the dry they seem to be fine (just did a short run to test my reinstalled brakes).

    > Whatever happened to Mathauser? Plain blocks are the best. I'm going to

    Never heard of him/them/it :)

    > I'll be interested to see if any of the more knowledgable people here have thoughts on the sludge
    > in the grooves. Does it really hurt? Is it solid enough to be abrasive? Does it grab and hold
    > larger pieces that grind and scrape the rim?
    The stuff I have here (Singapore) does not seem to be abrasive. What grooves I have on my Alu rims
    are from the original Shimato M65/T pads which I got rid of as fast as possible..

    > Or see what others say about switching to v-brakes. You'll still have the pad compound and pad
    > design issues, though.

    yeah, but it should make handling brake maintenance less of a chore..

    thanks and cheear
     
  7. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    Dan Daniel wrote:

    > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:30:07 +0800, "Mathias Koerber" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Hi Group,
    >>
    >> Currently my TREK X01 ('99 or '00 model, not sure, it's candy gold) is equipped with STX
    >> Cantilever brakes (modified with straddle wire instead of the triangle setup)
    >>
    >> I am getting tired of adjusting these everytime after removing/reinstalling the brakepads
    >> (KoolStop EagleII) for cleaning purposes (they tend to accumulate a lot of street sludge which
    >> greatly decreases the grip of the brakes when wet).
    >>
    >
    > Have you tried the Koolstop salmon pads? I have no problems with wet, sludge, etc. with them.
    >
    > Also, why do you remove the brake pads for cleaning? On my canti bikes I can pull the wheel and
    > get lots of access to the pad for deglazing, sanding, etc.

    Me too. If the pads need dressing in some way, you can do it with a piece of rough sandpaper.
    There's no reason to remove them, which *is* a PITA.

    There's nothing wrong with your STX cantis. Set them up as per Shedon Brown's or Keith Bontrager's
    instructions, and enjoy them as they are. I actually prefer older cantis to V-brakes -- better
    adjustability, better mud clearance, and thicker, longer lasting pads. They are a pain to set up,
    but once that's done you shouldn't have to touch them for months.

    Matt O.
     
  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Dan Daniel wrote: -snip-
    > I set up my cantilever pads with some toe-in. When I looked at the dual compound pads, it seemed
    > that most of my braking would be on the black compound. Which defeats the whole strength of the
    > salmon compound.
    -snip-

    The idea of toe is to anticipate the flex of the brake arm. Under load the whole pad
    surface contacts.

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  9. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    -snip-
    > On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:55:58 +0000, Dan Daniel wrote:
    >>Whatever happened to Mathauser? Plain blocks are the best. I'm going to

    Mathias Koerber wrote:
    > Never heard of him/them/it :)
    -snip-

    The now-defunct Matthauser developed the salmon compound which is now produced by Kool Stop

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  10. Dan Daniel

    Dan Daniel Guest

    On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:45 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Dan Daniel wrote: -snip-
    >> I set up my cantilever pads with some toe-in. When I looked at the dual compound pads, it seemed
    >> that most of my braking would be on the black compound. Which defeats the whole strength of the
    >> salmon compound.
    >-snip-
    >
    >The idea of toe is to anticipate the flex of the brake arm. Under load the whole pad surface
    >contacts.

    Does this happen with light braking? A lot of my braking is basically 'scrubbing' some speed off,
    nothing approaching full pressure. Watching the flex when the bike is on a workstand, it *feels* as
    if the amount of pressure that takes out all the flex is beyond my typical braking.

    *Feel* being a very subjective term here. Thinking about it now, I may very well be applying much
    more pressure in actual use than I am aware of. Or that a spinning wheel, even with light brake
    pressure, will 'pull' the pad forward and flat? Is this the load you speak of?

    Next time I sand down my canti brake pads I'll pay more attention to the actual glazing pattern.
     
  11. Bruce Graham

    Bruce Graham Guest

    [This followup was posted to rec.bicycles.tech and a copy was sent to the cited author.]

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Hi Group,
    >
    > Currently my TREK X01 ('99 or '00 model, not sure, it's candy gold) is equipped with STX
    > Cantilever brakes (modified with straddle wire instead of the triangle setup)
    >
    > I am getting tired of adjusting these everytime after removing/reinstalling the brakepads
    > (KoolStop EagleII) for cleaning purposes (they tend to accumulate a lot of street sludge which
    > greatly decreases the grip of the brakes when wet).
    >
    > Would V-brakes be a good alternative to the Cantis? I understand that V-brakes stay adjusted even
    > if the brakepads are removed and reinstalled (unless new brakepads are fitted which obviously
    > would require some adjustment).
    >
    > Are there any other dis-/advantages I shoudl take into account?
    >
    > But more importantly: My Brifters are Shimano RSX STIs. These seem to work well with the cantis.
    > Will they work with V-brakes?
    >
    > Are there different types of V-brakes, and if so what should I look out for?
    >
    > any info is appreciated Mathias
    >
    I got sick of my STX cantis (which were quite worn and wobbly on the bosses) and replaced them with
    tektro mini V brakes. These work with my RSX shifters very well. They have MUCH more power, but of
    course the rim clearance is a bit lower. I fitted them to my wifes bike too and she really likes the
    reduced braking force required. We just returned from a ride with a twisty 1300m descent. The first
    time she did that ride (with cantis) she had really sore arms from braking before the switchbacks,
    this time she did not complain and rode a faster descent.

    There are two models Tektro 917A has an arm length of 75mm (pivot to cable) I think they may have
    been superceded by a curvier model with an 80mm arm or perhaps both are current. (I have both) By
    comparison, my old LX V brakes on my mountain bike are 105mm

    My preference is for the older model 917A with the 75mm arm http://www.tektro.com/bmx/917.htm

    which is listed for $17 from
    http://www.bikeusa.com/MERCHANT2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MSGI&
    Category_Code=LinearPullBrakesTektro

    For a touring bike the 80mm arms give mudguard as well as tyre clearance with 32mm tires. The 75mm
    version won't work with mudguards on my bike, but will handle a 32mm tire without guards easily.
    Don't take these figures too literally because the position of the brake bosses on the fork will
    alter things - just work it out from the 75/80mm arm length.
     
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