sudden TT improvements.

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Shawn Jelley, Jul 20, 2003.

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  1. Shawn Jelley

    Shawn Jelley Guest

    although i have not looked at elevation profiles of these TT stages, it seems 'odd' to me that
    riders like virenque and pantani suddenly improve to within only 2-3 minutes of excellent time
    trialists. two examples, stage 20 of the 1997 TDF, results below:

    20ème étape samedi 26 juillet DISNEYLAND-PARIS contre-la-montre / timetrial 62km 1 OLANO Abraham 151
    en 1h15'57" 2 ULLRICH Jan 008 a 00'45" 3 GAUMONT Philippe 064 a 01'12" 4 JULICH Bobby066 a 02'24" 5
    DEKKER Erik 124 a 02'39" 6 MOREAU Christophe 017 a 02'56" 7 BROCHARD Laurent 013 a 03'10" 8 DUFAUX
    Laurent 014 a 03'11" 9 VIRENQUE Richard 011 a 03'32" 10 KASPUTIS Arturas 137 a 03'48"

    in a 62KM TT, are you telling me that dickie virenque is within 2:47 of a young ullrich and within
    3:32 of Olano, a world TT champion ? juding by this TT being held at the end of the race, it had to
    have been pretty damn flat. regardless, a 48.5 k/hr clip for virenque ?

    another example, how about pantani in the '98 giro (which he won) finishing 3rd in the final TT.
    anyone who knows anything about pantani knows that he only won grand tours because of superior and
    outlandish gains in the mountains, surely a rider like Armstrong or Ullrich would take 6+ minutes
    out of Marco in a long TT. this is the closest i could find to actual results of the final TT:

    Stage 21 : 1.S.Gontchar (ukr/cta) 2.M.Podenzana (ita/mer) 3.M.Pantani (ita/mer) 4.M.Velo (ita/mer)
    5.P.Tonkov (rus/map) 6.M.Serpellini (ita/bre)
    7.O.Camenzind (swi/map) 8.P.Savoldelli (ita/sae) 9.A.Zuelle (swi/fes)
    7.P.Moeller (den/tvm) Leader: M.Pantani (ita/mer)

    look at the results above, gontchar (world TT champion), velo (several time Italian TT champ),
    Zuelle (world TT champ and winner of prologues and TT's in several Grand Tours). are you telling me
    that marco 'all of a sudden' went all aero and learned to time trial, increased his TT power output
    by leaps and bounds ?

    i just don't know, this all seems a bit odd to me, of course we all now know that virenque was
    probably doped up like a thoroughbred racehorse thanks to the scandals of '98. as for pantani, well
    i will leave that one up to the imagination because i am sure this group is rampant with his tifosi.
    the only logical reason that i can think of for pantani's 3rd place is the possibility of a rolling
    TT, instead of the usual flat we could come to assume.

    anyway, let me know what y'all think.

    shawn
     
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  2. On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:54:41 GMT, Shawn Jelley wrote:
    > Marco in a long TT. this is the closest i could find to actual results of the final TT:

    From http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdi/tdi1998.php 21 Mendrisio-Lugano (Sui), 34 km ITT
    1. Serguei Gontchar en 39'54"
    2. Podenzana à 29"
    3. Pantani à 30"
    4. Velo à 31"
    5. Tonkov à 35"
    6. Serpellini à 1'01"
    7. Camenzind à 1'14"
    8. Savoldelli à 1'15"
    9. Zulle à 1'32"
    10. Moller à 1'40"
     
  3. Keith

    Keith Guest

    On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:54:41 GMT, "Shawn Jelley" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >although i have not looked at elevation profiles of these TT stages, it seems 'odd' to me that
    >riders like virenque and pantani suddenly improve to within only 2-3 minutes of excellent time
    >trialists.

    The examples you give are of the last ITT of a 3 week tour and that's when only the top contenders
    have any reason to "hurt" themselves, unlike the first TT when hopes are still high. In France, the
    last ITT is referred to as the "strong man's ITT".

    Cycling is such a "hard" sport that unless you're highly motivated you don't do well. That's also
    why Lance was so successful from 1999 to 2002, beause he demoralized his opponents with a massive
    blow in the first mountain stage.

    I've been following the tour since 1978 and it's always been like that, but if you're new to this,
    the question makes sense.

    In brief the guys who do well in the last ITT are:
    - Top 10 in the GC
    - ITT specialists
     
  4. Swj

    Swj Guest

    i am hardly new to the sport, i just thought i would get some input from the others in rbr.
    regardless, the point in my eyes is that there is no way that pure climbers like pantani and
    virenque should be anywhere near a semi-specialist like gontchar. only a 30 second gap ? sorry
    marco. dopage ?

    shawn
     
  5. Bart

    Bart Guest

    Usually the climbing in the Tour (6-7 stages) comes all in the second half. In a TT after all that,
    the climbers who can ride a GC usually do well. Just compare for different years the results of
    final TT with the first (usually just before the first mountain stage). Moreover, in that first TT
    the climbers are generally burnt from the killer pace in a week of flat stages.

    The point is you can't just isolate a TT from a demanding event like the Tour to make all kinds of
    assumptions.
     
  6. "swj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > i am hardly new to the sport, i just thought i would get some input from
    the
    > others in rbr. regardless, the point in my eyes is that there is no way that pure climbers like
    > pantani and virenque should be anywhere near a semi-specialist like gontchar. only a 30 second gap
    > ? sorry marco.
    dopage
    > ?

    Dude, go do a google search. The time trialing of Spotted Dick and La Elefantina have been discussed
    many times. Right now there's more interesting things going on.
     
  7. Swj

    Swj Guest

    well forgive me for 'thinking' that rec.bicycles.racing was a place to discuss bicycle racing. le
    tour may be more important, but it is hardly the **only** subject allowed in rbr. dumbass.
     
  8. "swj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > well forgive me for 'thinking' that rec.bicycles.racing was a place to discuss bicycle racing. le
    > tour may be more important, but it is hardly
    the
    > **only** subject allowed in rbr. dumbass.

    Dear Dumbass RBR Newbie -

    The sudden time trialing improvements of Spotted Dick and La Elefantina happened years ago. 1997 for
    The Dick and 1998 for La Elefantina.

    Old news. Do a google search - it's been discussed a lot already. There is no need to discuss the
    same thing 100 times, especially 5+ years after the fact.
     
  9. Cyrus

    Cyrus Guest

    > In brief the guys who do well in the last ITT are:
    > - Top 10 in the GC
    > - ITT specialists

    Fatigue is also very important after 3 weeks. Climbers who still are in a relatively good condition
    after the mountains will beat the exhausted rouleurs.

    However, the opposite happens also: In the tour, after the first week on flat terrain at high speed,
    most of the climbers are already too weakened to attack the rouleurs in the first mountains. If you
    don't believe me, just ask Indurain, or Simoni for that matter.

    cy
     
  10. Peter Vesel

    Peter Vesel Guest

    Bastard!!! I wanted to say exactly that

    Peter

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in
    >
    > The sudden time trialing improvements of Spotted Dick and La Elefantina happened years ago. 1997
    > for The Dick and 1998 for La Elefantina.
    >
    > Old news. Do a google search - it's been discussed a lot already. There is no need to discuss the
    > same thing 100 times, especially 5+ years after the fact.
    >
    >
     
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