suggestions on a smooth tread tire

hmmm, i'm not sure if this belongs on the tech list, but here i go. forgive me if it's off-topic
in some way.

i currently have at LEAST ten year old Pariba 20-622 Formula clinchers on my 1983 bianchi campione
d'italia. smoooooth tread, which i like at least for its looks. but the threading is fraying at some
points. the bike's been unused most of these past 10-15 years.

can someone recommend replacements? i'm thinking 700x23c would be good, smooth tread once again.
all-black if possible.

and in an effort to keep this on-topic if that's a concern, are smooth tread tires all they were
once cracked up to be? i rarely ride in wet conditions. and for now, i'm just putting in some short
miles (less than 15) in my daily commute to work (with a nice, quiet circuit through a local
graveyard, i know , i know...) and hopefully, starting up weekend 50 miles rides in them dar hills.
i used to club race, if that helps at all. thanks.

eric

fresno, ca.

 

tread has nothing to do with grip in the wet; Believe me. I live in Ireland and I've cycled in the
wet thousands of times with slick tyres.

 

yes, so i read... (just found ;-)

http://isc.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/section-9.html

personally, without factual evidence in hand to prove it, i have had no reservations in using slicks
in any weather condition. i'm more concerned about my coif than anything tread-wise...

eric fresno, ca.

> From: "Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee" <[email protected]> Organization: Esat Net Customer
> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:02:07 +0100 Subject: Re: suggestions on a
> smooth tread tire
>
> tread has nothing to do with grip in the wet; Believe me. I live in Ireland and I've cycled in the
> wet thousands of times with slick tyres.

 

On Tue, 01 Apr 2003 00:25:00 -0500, eric wrote:

> i currently have at LEAST ten year old Pariba 20-622 Formula clinchers on my 1983 bianchi campione
> d'italia. smoooooth tread, which i like at least for its looks. but the threading is fraying at
> some points. the bike's been unused most of these past 10-15 years.
>
> can someone recommend replacements? i'm thinking 700x23c would be good, smooth tread once again.
> all-black if possible.

Smooth tread, all-black: Avocet "Carbon-12". Great tire, and available cheap from some mail-order
houses since Avocet does such a crappy job of advertising that no one buys these great tires.
>
> and in an effort to keep this on-topic if that's a concern, are smooth tread tires all they were
> once cracked up to be?

What is _not_ all that it is cracked up to be is patterened tread. Slick tires do as well as
anything else in the rain. Snow and mud is another matter, perhaps.

> fresno, ca.

But you don't get a whole lot of snow (or rain) in Fresno. I know, I grew up there. Riding there is
a challenge, since it is so flat until you either get out to the river bluffs, or (better) head
towards the Sierra foothills.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all _`\(,_ | mysteries, and all
knowledge; and though I have all faith, so (_)/ (_) | that I could remove mountains, and have not
charity, I am nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]

 

Hello again David:

Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing now accurate? If not, can you say
how wide the 23c or 25c tire really is?

Thanks, John Black

 

New Avocet Fasgrip tires (carbon 12 model with black side walls) can be found either here:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/622.html or here:
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=0165&sku=696 3&storetype=&estoreid=

As for "accuracy" of width, if you get the all black/black sidewalls version, then the tires are
accurately label, e.g., 700x25 = 25mm wide. If you find any with the tan sidewalls, those are
inaccurately label, e.g., 700x28 = 24-26mm wide...

An example of a place with what appears to be the older "inaccurate versions, e.g., 700x28 is
gtgtandems here: http://www.gtgtandems.com/parts/tires.html

"John Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello again David:
>
> Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing now accurate? If not, can you
> say how wide the 23c or 25c tire really is?
>
> Thanks, John Black

 

On Tue, 01 Apr 2003 16:34:22 -0500, John Black wrote:

> Hello again David:
>
> Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing now accurate? If not, can you
> say how wide the 23c or 25c tire really is?

I got a pair from either Nashbar or Performance on closeout, but I confess I have yet to use them. I
had bought the last 3 of the old style from Sheldon and still have one of those unused as well.

But I understand that what they now call 23 is what used to be called 25, and on my wheels measures
at least 22mm across. It does matter what rim you use, but this is within reasonable tolerances of
correct. What they now call 25 they used to call 28 and again is reasonably close to 25, or at least
the old 28 measures 25.

Does that make sense? If so, I'm sorry.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can _`\(,_ | assure you that mine
are all greater. -- A. Einstein (_)/ (_) |

 

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 01 Apr 2003 16:34:22 -0500, John Black wrote:
>
> > Hello again David:
> >
> > Where can these Avocet Carbon 12 tires be obtained? Is the sizing
now
> > accurate? If not, can you say how wide the 23c or 25c tire really
is?
>
> I got a pair from either Nashbar or Performance on closeout, but I confess I have yet to use them.
> I had bought the last 3 of the old style from Sheldon and still have one of those unused as well.
>
> But I understand that what they now call 23 is what used to be called
25,
> and on my wheels measures at least 22mm across. It does matter what
rim
> you use, but this is within reasonable tolerances of correct. What
they
> now call 25 they used to call 28 and again is reasonably close to 25,
or
> at least the old 28 measures 25.
>
> Does that make sense? If so, I'm sorry.

I am using the Carbon 12s. I still think that the old SuperComp HDs have better traction in the
rain. But then again, maybe I just have fond recollections. -- Jay Beattie.

 

eric wrote:
> yes, so i read... (just found ;-)
>
> http://isc.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/section-9.html
>
> personally, without factual evidence in hand to prove it, i have had no reservations in using
> slicks in any weather condition.

From the link:

> commonly used for racing cars, and another twenty before they reached racing motorcycles. Today,
> slicks are used in all weather by most street motorcycles.

This is complete nonsense. Anyone who tried to race a motorcycle on slicks in the rain wouldn't make
it through the first braking zone. In motorcycle racing, when it starts to rain during a race, the
race is halted so the riders can come in and switch to what are called "rain tires", which look a
lot like knobbies. (They have a different compound as well, but they are loaded with tread to
channel water)

When the track is damp but it's stopped raining, there's always a big gamble on whether to got
with full rain tires, slicks, or intermediates. If it starts raining again and you're on slicks,
you've blown it.

It could be that bicycle tires are too small for the tread to be useful in the rain; I dunno. But to
claim that road-racing motorcycles use slicks in the rain is just factually incorrect. You should
see the panic in a GP race when it starts to rain...all the riders slow way down and point to the
sky to tell the marshalls to stop the race so they can change tires.

I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:

http://www.bibmen.com/type.html

near the bottom.

Duke

 

Duke Robillard writes:

>> http://isc.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/section-9.html

>> without factual evidence in hand to prove it, I have had no reservations in using slicks in any
>> weather condition.

> From the link:

> commonly used for racing cars, and another twenty before they reached racing motorcycles. Today,
> slicks are used in all weather by most street motorcycles.

> This is complete nonsense. Anyone who tried to race a motorcycle on slicks in the rain wouldn't
> make it through the first braking zone.

Not so fast. Different tread compound on M/C tires is not a tread pattern and tires used in the rain
are not a maze of sipes and grooves as was formerly assumed necessary.

> In motorcycle racing, when it starts to rain during a race, the race is halted so the riders can
> come in and switch to what are called "rain tires", which look a lot like knobbies. (They have a
> different compound as well, but they are loaded with tread to channel water)

How about giving a link to tires that have these water channels.

> It could be that bicycle tires are too small for the tread to be useful in the rain; I dunno. But
> to claim that road-racing motorcycles use slicks in the rain is just factually incorrect. You
> should see the panic in a GP race when it starts to rain...all the riders slow way down and point
> to the sky to tell the marshalls to stop the race so they can change tires.

You are confusing cause and effect. The panic is about traction and that is principally tread
compound as is listed here:

"This is the ultimate DOT racing tire. Michelins newest Supersport tires are available in 3
different compounds. These tires build upon the race winning Pilot Race series of tires. The
Semi-Slick tread pattern maximizes the contact patch, especially at full lean angles."

> I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
> place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:

> http://www.bibmen.com/type.html

> near the bottom.

As you see, the slicks shown are touted as:

"Sport riding tires at the next level. The Pilot Sport has been designed to give excellent
traction under just about any condition. Michelin's patented Silicium tread compound, which uses
100% silica reinforcing fibers promotes exceptional grip, especially on wet and cold roads while
also extending the Pilot Sport's tread life."

This tire has large slick sections with occasional grooves by which remaining tread thickness can be
assessed. These grooves are required by law. Note that bicycles rarely exceed 50mph, have a contact
patch smaller than any smooth area on a modern motorcycle tire and have no power input where lean
angles are large.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

Duke Robillard writes:

> I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
> place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:

> http://www.bibmen.com/type.html

I think you wanted to find the Bridgestone page:

http://www.motorcycle-karttires.com/racing/Rain.asp

Note that these tires use the YEK compound. Even among these, engineering would have a hard time
explaining the difference between front and rear tread patterns and the shape of their grooves.
Imagine adapting such tread patterns to a 25mm cross section bicycle tire?

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

> Duke Robillard writes:
>
> >> http://isc.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/section-9.html
>
> >> without factual evidence in hand to prove it, I have had no reservations in using slicks in any
> >> weather condition.
>
> > From the link:
>
> > commonly used for racing cars, and another twenty before they reached racing motorcycles.
> > Today, slicks are used in all weather by most street motorcycles.
>
> > This is complete nonsense. Anyone who tried to race a motorcycle on slicks in the rain wouldn't
> > make it through the first braking zone.
>
> Not so fast. Different tread compound on M/C tires is not a tread pattern and tires used in the
> rain are not a maze of sipes and grooves as was formerly assumed necessary.
>
> > In motorcycle racing, when it starts to rain during a race, the race is halted so the riders can
> > come in and switch to what are called "rain tires", which look a lot like knobbies. (They have a
> > different compound as well, but they are loaded with tread to channel water)
>
> How about giving a link to tires that have these water channels.
>
> > It could be that bicycle tires are too small for the tread to be useful in the rain; I dunno.
> > But to claim that road-racing motorcycles use slicks in the rain is just factually incorrect.
> > You should see the panic in a GP race when it starts to rain...all the riders slow way down and
> > point to the sky to tell the marshalls to stop the race so they can change tires.
>
> You are confusing cause and effect. The panic is about traction and that is principally tread
> compound as is listed here:
>
> "This is the ultimate DOT racing tire. Michelins newest Supersport tires are available in 3
> different compounds. These tires build upon the race winning Pilot Race series of tires. The
> Semi-Slick tread pattern maximizes the contact patch, especially at full lean angles."
>
> > I tried to find a picture of a racing rain tire, but couldn't manage to Google one up. Here's a
> > place that sells racing slicks and rains, though:
>
> > http://www.bibmen.com/type.html
>
> > near the bottom.
>
> As you see, the slicks shown are touted as:
>
> "Sport riding tires at the next level. The Pilot Sport has been designed to give excellent
> traction under just about any condition. Michelin's patented Silicium tread compound, which uses
> 100% silica reinforcing fibers promotes exceptional grip, especially on wet and cold roads while
> also extending the Pilot Sport's tread life."
>
> This tire has large slick sections with occasional grooves by which remaining tread thickness can
> be assessed. These grooves are required by law. Note that bicycles rarely exceed 50mph, have a
> contact patch smaller than any smooth area on a modern motorcycle tire and have no power input
> where lean angles are large.

That tire is a street radial. Ironically, most race series that normally call for DOT tires (which
generally look like these street tires but use a racing compound) allow the riders to switch to
non-DOT race wets in wet conditions.

I have taken your theories about using slicks on bicycles to heart. But the FAQ is rather misleading
on this point when it comes to motorcycles, especially racing motorcycles:

http://motous.webmichelin.com/racing/wets.htm

This page shows a picture of Michelin's intermediate and wet racing tires. Note the open-block
design of the rain front, and the well-chanelled design of the intermediate rear.

Note also that these tires run _very_ soft compounds that work at relatively low tire temperatures.
The wets are virtually useless in dry conditions and their performance degrades rapidly as they heat
up on a dry track. The Intermediates cost motorcycle racers seconds per lap (maybe 1%-10+%
performance difference) compared to proper-compound slicks in the dry.

I'm not sure what proportion of the performance difference for these tires is for tread and what
part for compound, but rear tires on road or racing motorcycles can now be 190 mm wide radials; at
that width the tire has a substantial flat section of tread between the two curvedbits that you do
the cornering on.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club