Super Mario versus Gord 'Flash' Fraser

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Ronde Chumpion, Mar 25, 2003.

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  1. Hey

    Not wanting the whole Euro-US debate to continue, who is the more dominant sprinter based on their
    particular racing scene???

    Cippo takes M-SR, Worlds, and then the field sprint in M-SR in the rainbow jersey. Basically absent
    10 months of the year though. Except for his well timed press conferences during the Tour while
    he's a spectator.

    Gordo....wins like 60 races a year for 5 years w/Horsetooth. Joins the most amateur of the 37 D3
    teams in America. Continues by winning three Pomona stages, Tucson TT, and the crit and field
    sprint last weekend at McClane. I know Saturn kept it all together for wonderkid Danielson (The
    Next Big Thing), so his weak team isn't always exposed.....but still, you gotta give the guy
    credit. He wins 10 months a year.

    What do you guys think. In a 60k race, I pick Gordo, 100-150k even steven (you pick em), anything
    200k + and Cippo bitch slaps Flash with one leg on the pedal.

    Thanks, Ronde Chumpion
     
    Tags:


  2. Gord shouldnt be in America he should be over here in Europe. Won a Criterium international stage
    the other year in a mass sprint and virtually cruised to the win. But his wife is expecting and he
    loves Tuscon a friend of his tells me. But given the right conditions Gord could beat Cipo "ronde
    chumpion" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hey
    >
    > Not wanting the whole Euro-US debate to continue, who is the more dominant sprinter based on
    > their particular racing scene???
    >
    > Cippo takes M-SR, Worlds, and then the field sprint in M-SR in the rainbow jersey. Basically
    > absent 10 months of the year though. Except for his well timed press conferences during the Tour
    > while he's a spectator.
    >
    > Gordo....wins like 60 races a year for 5 years w/Horsetooth. Joins the most amateur of the 37 D3
    > teams in America. Continues by winning three Pomona stages, Tucson TT, and the crit and field
    > sprint last weekend at McClane. I know Saturn kept it all together for wonderkid Danielson (The
    > Next Big Thing), so his weak team isn't always exposed.....but still, you gotta give the guy
    > credit. He wins 10 months a year.
    >
    > What do you guys think. In a 60k race, I pick Gordo, 100-150k even steven (you pick em), anything
    > 200k + and Cippo bitch slaps Flash with one leg on the pedal.
    >
    >
    > Thanks, Ronde Chumpion
     
  3. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    > What do you guys think. In a 60k race, I pick Gordo, 100-150k even steven (you pick em), anything
    > 200k + and Cippo bitch slaps Flash with one leg on the pedal.

    I think you are stupid. You try to compare Cipo to Fraser. How much of a lunatic do you have to be
    to do that. That's like comparing apples to oranges.

    First of all: Cipo does ride more than two months a year. To win MSR you have to have quite some km
    in your legs. In the preparation to MSR he always win some stages. After the classics he rides the
    Giro. If his team gets selected he rides the tour. And if he has an objective in the fall like last
    year's WC he rides the Vuelta. Son don't you tell me he's only active for two months.

    Now Gordon wins 60 shitraces in the US. This means the rest of riders he rides with are even worse
    than him. But it definitely doesn't mean he can beat Cipo in race of 60k. Besides you can hardly
    call 60km a race. How crazy it is to think that cipo, the fastest rider on earth, couldn't win a 60k
    race against Frazer? If Fraser is the great sprinter you say he is, he shouldn't be riding in the US
    but he should be part of european team with a european program. Then you can compare Cipo and your
    Canadian friend. I think everyone should sign for a WC when they have to choose between that or even
    150 wins in US shitraces where nobody cares about.
     
  4. Fried Tofu

    Fried Tofu Guest

    > >
    > > Not wanting the whole Euro-US debate to continue, who is the more dominant sprinter based on
    > > their particular racing scene???
    > >

    Get it right. It would be a Euro-CANADA debate!!!
     
  5. I think a lot of Gord Fraser as a bike racer and have the whole national bias thing going too, but I
    would have to pick Cippo as the winner of a head to head. Cippo consistently beats the top sprint
    competition in the Euro scene. Robbie Mac, Meister Energizer Zabel et al. Cippo has a dedicated
    team, but then, so do these other top sprinters so that should be a non factor. So do I pick Gordo
    over Zabel, R-Mac and Cippo? No. Rather I place R-Mac and Gordo on about the same level, just below
    Cippo. Mike McMurray

    "bernardslater" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Gord shouldnt be in America he should be over here in Europe. Won a Criterium international stage
    > the other year in a mass sprint and virtually cruised to the win. But his wife is expecting and he
    > loves Tuscon a friend of his tells me. But given the right conditions Gord could beat Cipo "ronde
    > chumpion" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Hey
    > >
    > > Not wanting the whole Euro-US debate to continue, who is the more dominant sprinter based on
    > > their particular racing scene???
    > >
    > > SNIP<
     
  6. I'm as big a fan of Gord as anyone, but... c'mon, really now.

    "bernardslater" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Gord shouldnt be in America he should be over here in Europe. Won a Criterium international stage
    > the other year in a mass sprint and virtually cruised to the win. But his wife is expecting and he
    > loves Tuscon a friend of his tells me. But given the right conditions Gord could beat Cipo "ronde
    > chumpion" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Hey
    > >
    > > Not wanting the whole Euro-US debate to continue, who is the more dominant sprinter based on
    > > their particular racing scene???
    > >
    > > Cippo takes M-SR, Worlds, and then the field sprint in M-SR in the rainbow jersey. Basically
    > > absent 10 months of the year though. Except for his well timed press conferences during the
    > > Tour while he's a spectator.
    > >
    > > Gordo....wins like 60 races a year for 5 years w/Horsetooth. Joins the most amateur of the 37
    > > D3 teams in America. Continues by winning three Pomona stages, Tucson TT, and the crit and
    > > field sprint last weekend at McClane. I know Saturn kept it all together for wonderkid
    > > Danielson (The Next Big Thing), so his weak team isn't always exposed.....but still, you gotta
    > > give the guy credit. He wins 10 months a year.
    > >
    > > What do you guys think. In a 60k race, I pick Gordo, 100-150k even steven (you pick em),
    > > anything 200k + and Cippo bitch slaps Flash with one leg on the pedal.
    > >
    > >
    > > Thanks, Ronde Chumpion
     
  7. maarten

    maarten New Member

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    In a 60 km criterium they both get a beating By Graeme brown and Ivan Quaranta. The thing is Cipo isn fast but freire Mc ewen are faster in the last 50 it's only Cipo's superb team the golden train that makes a lot of difference.

    Considering pure speed of the road sprinters Brown and certainly Quaranta are superb. But Ivan has this problem if there's an elevation of 50m in the road or 3 consecutive higway bridges he gets dropped.

    If you go for just a man to man sprint they get easily beaten by Guys like Tournant and Eadie.
     
  8. Scott

    Scott Guest

    In Europe, Mario cannot be beaten in the kind of sprint he wins - a 70kph sprint off a monster
    train. If Zabel, McEwen, Quaranta, etc can't do it with any regularity, how do you think Gord could?
    Now, if Gord rode for a Euro team with a comparable train and spent years getting used to that kind
    of sprint, who knows how competitive he could become? He's very talented.

    In American style crits, Gord has equivalent supremacy. I would bet that if Mario showed up last
    week at McClane crit with its 6 corners, a 12 foot wide jaunt around the courthouse, and a corner
    with 200m to go, Gord would probably beat him. Again, if Mario got a crit team together and spent
    time in the American monkey bowl racing scene, who knows?

    Net net: they are different kinds of sprinters in different kinds of sprints. The skills are NOT
    directly translatable. So I say they each win their respective styles, but could probably adapt
    pretty well to the other style if they wanted.

    Here's a data point to consider: I was considered a fast American pro sprinter. In Europe, I would
    often get burned off in the closing Ks because the speed was too high (think 20ks in the 53x12 spun
    out, fighting for position) and I did not have support. However, once in a while there were
    crit-style prologues, which I could win - even over guys like Cipo and Baffi. Go figure.

    Scott

    "maarten" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In a 60 km criterium they both get a beating By Graeme brown and Ivan Quaranta. The thing is Cipo
    > isn fast but freire Mc ewen are faster in the last 50 it's only Cipo's superb team the golden
    > train that makes a lot of difference.
    >
    > Considering pure speed of the road sprinters Brown and certainly Quaranta are superb. But Ivan has
    > this problem if there's an elevation of 50m in the road or 3 consecutive higway bridges he gets
    > dropped.
    >
    > If you go for just a man to man sprint they get easily beaten by Guys like Tournant and Eadie.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > A winner is a loser who didn't quit!
    >
    > >--------------------------<
    > Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com
     
  9. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote
    > In Europe, Mario cannot be beaten in the kind of sprint he wins - a 70kph sprint off a
    > monster train.

    I thought you were going to write "80kph."
     
  10. Phil Carter

    Phil Carter Guest

    I don't think he's stupid. In a 60K American crit, Gord would win hands down. Cipo doesn't like to
    fight for a wheel. He'll beat you up after the race if take his wheel away from him. And I'd bet
    your average Cat 3 US racer could out-corner Cipo.

    I'd pick Cipo when there's a flat, straight 5K run-in to the finish, but he'd be off the back in an
    American crit.

    [email protected] (Kenny) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > What do you guys think. In a 60k race, I pick Gordo, 100-150k even steven (you pick em),
    > > anything 200k + and Cippo bitch slaps Flash with one leg on the pedal.
    >
    > I think you are stupid. You try to compare Cipo to Fraser. How much of a lunatic do you have to be
    > to do that. That's like comparing apples to oranges.
    >
    > First of all: Cipo does ride more than two months a year. To win MSR you have to have quite some
    > km in your legs. In the preparation to MSR he always win some stages. After the classics he rides
    > the Giro. If his team gets selected he rides the tour. And if he has an objective in the fall like
    > last year's WC he rides the Vuelta. Son don't you tell me he's only active for two months.
    >
    > Now Gordon wins 60 shitraces in the US. This means the rest of riders he rides with are even worse
    > than him. But it definitely doesn't mean he can beat Cipo in race of 60k. Besides you can hardly
    > call 60km a race. How crazy it is to think that cipo, the fastest rider on earth, couldn't win a
    > 60k race against Frazer? If Fraser is the great sprinter you say he is, he shouldn't be riding in
    > the US but he should be part of european team with a european program. Then you can compare Cipo
    > and your Canadian friend. I think everyone should sign for a WC when they have to choose between
    > that or even 150 wins in US shitraces where nobody cares about.
     
  11. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Phil Carter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I don't think he's stupid. In a 60K American crit, Gord would win hands down. Cipo doesn't like to
    > fight for a wheel. He'll beat you up after the race if take his wheel away from him. And I'd bet
    > your average Cat 3 US racer could out-corner Cipo.
    >
    How much... :)

    > I'd pick Cipo when there's a flat, straight 5K run-in to the finish, but he'd be off the back in
    > an American crit.
    >
    How many corners do you think there are on the Poggio?

    Jeff
     
  12. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Scott <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Here's a data point to consider: I was considered a fast American pro sprinter. In Europe, I would
    > often get burned off in the closing Ks because the speed was too high (think 20ks in the 53x12
    > spun out, fighting for position) and I did not have support. However, once in a while there were
    > crit-style prologues, which I could win - even over guys like Cipo and Baffi. Go figure.
    >
    > Scott

    Now you get the chance to beat another Italian "pro" sprinter in criteriums. Stinton got him at
    McClane last weekend.

    -WG
     
  13. "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In Europe, Mario cannot be beaten in the kind of sprint he wins - a 70kph sprint off a monster
    > train. If Zabel, McEwen, Quaranta, etc can't do it
    with
    > any regularity, how do you think Gord could? Now, if Gord rode for a Euro team with a comparable
    > train and spent years getting used to that kind of sprint, who knows how competitive he could
    > become? He's very talented.
    >
    > In American style crits, Gord has equivalent supremacy. I would bet that
    if
    > Mario showed up last week at McClane crit with its 6 corners, a 12 foot
    wide
    > jaunt around the courthouse, and a corner with 200m to go, Gord would probably beat him. Again, if
    > Mario got a crit team together and spent time in the American monkey bowl racing scene, who knows?
    >
    > Net net: they are different kinds of sprinters in different kinds of sprints. The skills are NOT
    > directly translatable. So I say they each win their respective styles, but could probably adapt
    > pretty well to the other style if they wanted.
    >
    > Here's a data point to consider: I was considered a fast American pro sprinter. In Europe, I would
    > often get burned off in the closing Ks
    because
    > the speed was too high (think 20ks in the 53x12 spun out, fighting for position) and I did not
    > have support. However, once in a while there were crit-style prologues, which I could win - even
    > over guys like Cipo and Baffi. Go figure.

    Back in the day, I heard analysis that you were the only North American based sprinter who had the
    speed to take the top Euros and that you could have been a top Euro sprinter except that you didn't
    have the training ethic to do so.

    Do you feel like the commentary is off-base or ill-informed?

    Are you flattered by the appraisal of your talent? or annoyed at the characterization of
    your desire?

    just curious,

    K. Gringioni
     
  14. Jeff Pooter

    Jeff Pooter Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:260320031456217164%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Scott <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Here's a data point to consider: I was considered a fast American pro sprinter. In Europe, I
    > > would often get burned off in the closing Ks
    because
    > > the speed was too high (think 20ks in the 53x12 spun out, fighting for position) and I did not
    > > have support. However, once in a while there
    were
    > > crit-style prologues, which I could win - even over guys like Cipo and Baffi. Go figure.
    > >
    > > Scott
    >
    > Now you get the chance to beat another Italian "pro" sprinter in criteriums. Stinton got him at
    > McClane last weekend.

    Ooooooooooooo . . . was this in a Masters RACE?

    Please, please, do tell us the story!

    It's unfair how the press covers the pro races only in races like McClane, when the Masters RACE is
    just as good! only the RACERS are a little older.

    Age discrimination should not be tolerated in this society. Who knows what people can achieve if
    they ignore that number? If only the RACERS would throw off the chains of their negative thinking,
    someday a 50 year old will WIN the Tour de France! What a great day that will be! New energy! The
    sport will be better.

    Don't think "old people". Think people watching their 50 year old friends and neighbors doing
    Masters BIKE RACING on TV instead of the NBA or NFL!

    Please tell us THE STORY!
     
  15. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Jeff Pooter
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:260320031456217164%[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Scott <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Here's a data point to consider: I was considered a fast American pro sprinter. In Europe, I
    > > > would often get burned off in the closing Ks
    > because
    > > > the speed was too high (think 20ks in the 53x12 spun out, fighting for position) and I did not
    > > > have support. However, once in a while there
    > were
    > > > crit-style prologues, which I could win - even over guys like Cipo and Baffi. Go figure.
    > > >
    > > > Scott
    > >
    > > Now you get the chance to beat another Italian "pro" sprinter in criteriums. Stinton got him at
    > > McClane last weekend.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Ooooooooooooo . . . was this in a Masters RACE?
    >
    > Please, please, do tell us the story!

    It was in the 35+ 1,2,3 event. Gaggioli led it out from before the last corner and Stinton got him
    by about half a wheel. Most of the guys not in the top 10 into the last corner were delayed by a
    crash that took out 4-5 guys. Thereafter I think the officials decided to widen the "course" coming
    out of the last corner by moving the portable fencing that was artificially restricting the course
    to two lanes wide in that area. It was nasty fencing to crash into.

    -WG
     
  16. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > Back in the day, I heard analysis that you were the only North American based sprinter who had the
    > speed to take the top Euros and that you could have been a top Euro sprinter except that you
    > didn't have the training
    ethic
    > to do so.
    >
    > Do you feel like the commentary is off-base or ill-informed?

    It would be interesting to hear who gave that analysis. Were they qualified to do so? My "sources"
    say nothing about a lack of training ethic on Scott's part.
     
  17. Scott

    Scott Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > Back in the day, I heard analysis that you were the only North American based sprinter who had
    > > the speed to take the top Euros and that you
    could
    > > have been a top Euro sprinter except that you didn't have the training
    > ethic
    > > to do so.
    > >
    > > Do you feel like the commentary is off-base or ill-informed?
    >
    > It would be interesting to hear who gave that analysis. Were they
    qualified
    > to do so? My "sources" say nothing about a lack of training ethic on
    Scott's
    > part.
    >

    Carl stickin up for me again? Nice!

    I'll answer for myself because now I sit at a desk all day and its nice to get a little "I coulda
    been great!..." ego massage once in a while.

    I had the talent and the drive, but no direction. I did manage to actually win Euro races when I was
    21-22, beating guys like Kelly, Vanderaerden, Baffi, etc. But I was on a team (7-11/Motorola) that
    was going through a transitional phase from the old school (Kiefel, Phinney, Shapiro, Lauritzen) to
    the new, and there wasn't much support for the new. Even worse, my coach and mentor Mike Neel - the
    best - had a horrible car crash during my second year in Europe and left me stranded. I didn't have
    a clue about the talent I had or how to nurture it. I had no perspective. I thought getting dropped
    on a 10k climb in the Dauphine Libere meant I sucked - even if I won a kermesse against big
    sprinters the week before. So I gave up, headed home, and did the U.S. cash circuit. It wasnt' about
    a training ethic. It was about a need for good direction and management.

    Bottom line is that it there are a lot of factors that make a successful pro. Many guys have the
    physical talent, but they can't do it without all kinds of support - financial, emotional, etc.
    Personally, I needed a good manager badly. I very much regret not coming close to my potential as a
    Euro field sprinter. Dream about those races every night. Now isn't that pathetic?

    But thanks for the compliments guys.

    scott
     
  18. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Dream about those races every night. Now isn't that pathetic?

    Pathetic would have been never trying at all. You came from a position that didn't let you get a
    clear view of your own talent. Happens all the time. Armstrong was lucky to make all of the right
    moves at all of the right times. Hardly anyone else has.
     
  19. John Lee

    John Lee Guest

    Right and Julian dean was easily kicking Gordons but in the US and is he still not getting the
    measure of Cipo, Robbie, Zabel etc.........its all different over there.......... john


    On 26 Mar 2003 07:56:30 -0800, [email protected] (Scott Hendricks) wrote:

    >I'm as big a fan of Gord as anyone, but... c'mon, really now.
    >
    >
    >
    >"bernardslater" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:<[email protected]>...
    >> Gord shouldnt be in America he should be over here in Europe. Won a Criterium international stage
    >> the other year in a mass sprint and virtually cruised to the win. But his wife is expecting and
    >> he loves Tuscon a friend of his tells me. But given the right conditions Gord could beat Cipo
    >> "ronde chumpion" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >> > Hey
    >> >
    >> > Not wanting the whole Euro-US debate to continue, who is the more dominant sprinter based on
    >> > their particular racing scene???
    >> >
    >> > Cippo takes M-SR, Worlds, and then the field sprint in M-SR in the rainbow jersey. Basically
    >> > absent 10 months of the year though. Except for his well timed press conferences during the
    >> > Tour while he's a spectator.
    >> >
    >> > Gordo....wins like 60 races a year for 5 years w/Horsetooth. Joins the most amateur of the 37
    >> > D3 teams in America. Continues by winning three Pomona stages, Tucson TT, and the crit and
    >> > field sprint last weekend at McClane. I know Saturn kept it all together for wonderkid
    >> > Danielson (The Next Big Thing), so his weak team isn't always exposed.....but still, you gotta
    >> > give the guy credit. He wins 10 months a year.
    >> >
    >> > What do you guys think. In a 60k race, I pick Gordo, 100-150k even steven (you pick em),
    >> > anything 200k + and Cippo bitch slaps Flash with one leg on the pedal.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > Thanks, Ronde Chumpion
     
  20. Dave

    Dave Guest

    "Phil Carter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    And I'd bet your
    > average Cat 3 US racer could out-corner Cipo.

    Not any of the average Cat 3 racers I have raced against Dave
     
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