Suspension frames?

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Mr. E. Mann, May 31, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mr. E. Mann

    Mr. E. Mann Guest

    I'm looking for some recomendations for suspension frames in the $1000 range. I've been looking at
    the Weyless 2003 SP on the low end and the Intense Tracer on the higher end (supergo is selling them
    for about $300 less than everywhere else). I also like the TOMAC REVOLVER PRO. This is going to be
    mainly for trail riding, so I wasnt to keep it pretty light. If I get into more agressive stuff,
    I'll just have to build another bike. Also, what about the AZONIC EXTENSION PROPULSION?

    If I can get by with the Weyless, that will save me about $600, but I really like the looks of the
    Tomac Revolver pro (black and yellow frame) and the Intense tracer (Red). Anyway, If anyone has
    any experience riding on these frames I would love to hear about it. Also, do these frames fit
    about the same as hard tail frames? IOW, would a 19 inch susp. frame be similar in size to a 19
    inch hard tail?

    Thanks for any help.
     
    Tags:


  2. Jon Bond

    Jon Bond Guest

    "Mr. E. Mann" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I'm looking for some recomendations for suspension frames in the $1000 range. I've been looking at
    > the Weyless 2003 SP on the low end and the Intense Tracer on the higher end (supergo is selling
    > them for about $300 less than everywhere else). I also like the TOMAC REVOLVER PRO. This is going
    > to be mainly for trail riding, so I wasnt to keep it pretty light.
    If
    > I get into more agressive stuff, I'll just have to build another bike. Also, what about the AZONIC
    > EXTENSION PROPULSION?

    Pssst - *cough*Blur!*cough*

    Also, check out the Titus Loco-moto. That was my second choice - very sweet frame. Also the
    Superlight. Tracers are damn nice, and you can find 'em for 1300ish now.
    >snip<

    Jon Bond
     
  3. Mr. E. Mann

    Mr. E. Mann Guest

    "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > "Mr. E. Mann" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    <much>

    > Pssst - *cough*Blur!*cough*
    >
    > Also, check out the Titus Loco-moto. That was my second choice - very sweet frame. Also the
    > Superlight. Tracers are damn nice, and you can find 'em for 1300ish now.
    >>snip<
    >
    > Jon Bond

    Is there a web site for titus? I did a google search and couldn't find it. I did find a few pictures
    and it looks pretty nice, but I don't care for black that much (and I definitley didn't like the
    gold <barf!> one I saw).
     
  4. Jon Bond

    Jon Bond Guest

    "Mr. E. Mann" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    > > "Mr. E. Mann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > <much>
    >
    >
    > > Pssst - *cough*Blur!*cough*
    > >
    > > Also, check out the Titus Loco-moto. That was my second choice - very sweet frame. Also the
    > > Superlight. Tracers are damn nice, and you can find 'em for 1300ish now.
    > >>snip<
    > >
    > > Jon Bond
    >
    > Is there a web site for titus? I did a google search and couldn't find it. I did find a few
    > pictures and it looks pretty nice, but I don't care for black that much (and I definitley didn't
    > like the gold <barf!> one I saw).

    http://www.titusti.com/mtn_bikes_frmset.html

    black, blue, grey, gold, red, pink. I know you want pink.

    Jon Bond
     
  5. Dave Stocker

    Dave Stocker Guest

    "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Pssst - *cough*Blur!*cough*
    >

    I would wait on a Blur. Aside from the fact that it is overhyped, it is a new model and has not yet
    proven itself. If everyone STILL thinks it is the greatest thing in the world in two years, then
    consider it.

    I was recently bike shopping and I very nearly ordered a Blur before I came to my senses.

    4 things:

    1- BOB is a rider problem, not a design failure. It is only a problem if you can't pedal in a
    circle. If you pedal sloppy enough, you can make even a URT bike bob. If you have a bob problem,
    practice pedaling your bike with one leg. Ride for a while, switch legs, repeat. It is a stupid
    boring drill, but it works.

    2- I got a little concerned watching SC's VPP marketing video. When the guy says something about
    chain tension keeping the back wheel in place, I started thinking: "Hmm my cranks are fixed to the
    chainring and my feet are fixed to the pedal. Can you say Kickback?"

    3- On a $1300 frame that is just going into production, let somebody else find the problems. Buy
    version 1.1.

    4- SC has a 1 year warranty. This is a $1300 frame with a one-year warranty! Specialized, Trek,
    Kestrel, etc, have lifetime warranty on the frames. Christ, even my old Haro has a lifetime warranty
    on the frame. SC is essentially saying, "We will sell you an expensive frame, but do not ask us to
    stand behind our work".

    -Dave
     
  6. Jon Bond

    Jon Bond Guest

    "Dave Stocker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Pssst - *cough*Blur!*cough*
    > >
    >
    > I would wait on a Blur. Aside from the fact that it is overhyped, it is a new model and has not
    > yet proven itself. If everyone STILL thinks it is
    the
    > greatest thing in the world in two years, then consider it.

    Who gives a damn about hype? Ride the sucker, then decide. I can claim that full suspension is
    overhyped - and you know what, it is. Hell, so are suspension forks. And singlespeeds. Hype is part
    of the business, and smart marketing. There's a reason why you're still hearing the same thing about
    the blur over 6 months after its release. (They had working models in 2001 by the way, so there's
    your 2 years if you want to do it that way)

    If I waited two years every time a new technology came out, I'd still be shying away from 100mm
    forks, adjustable travel, fox forks (which I don't use, but if I wasn't sponsored by Marzocchi I'd
    seriously consider), any of the stable platform technologies (IE Epic, 5th element, manitou SPV)...
    why wait? BTW, VPP is not new technology - search for Outland bicycles. They supposedly rode really
    nice until they broke - fault of the engineering of the bike itself, not the suspension system.
    Santa Cruz actually wanted to release teh blur earlier, but decided to iron out as many bugs as they
    could find before they put it out to market - not many companies will do that.

    > I was recently bike shopping and I very nearly ordered a Blur before I
    came
    > to my senses.
    >
    > 4 things:

    > 1- BOB is a rider problem, not a design failure. It is only a problem if you can't pedal in a
    > circle. If you pedal sloppy enough, you can make
    even
    > a URT bike bob. If you have a bob problem, practice pedaling your bike
    with
    > one leg. Ride for a while, switch legs, repeat. It is a stupid boring drill, but it works.

    There's a reason you don't see many URT bikes anymore - they actually bob quite a lot, besides being
    nasty. Also, don't try to say that bob is totally a rider problem. There's rotational acceleration,
    torque, and all sorts of factors that determine which way the rear wheel moves under power. Yes, if
    you've got a bad enough spin, any bike will bob, but there's a reason some bikes bob a hell of a lot
    more in some gears than others.

    > 2- I got a little concerned watching SC's VPP marketing video. When the
    guy
    > says something about chain tension keeping the back wheel in place, I started thinking: "Hmm my
    > cranks are fixed to the chainring and my feet
    are
    > fixed to the pedal. Can you say Kickback?"

    yes, I can - "kickback does not affect the blur". The suspension moves the rear wheel in a very
    slightly s-curved path. When there is tension on the chain in the sag position, it tends to move the
    rear wheel down the slope - in other words, into the middle of the small curve at the bottom. This
    keeps the bike from bobbing (much) from the sag position. The relatively slow speed compression will
    not push the bike far enough past this point to go into the main stroke of the shock. Higher speed
    compressions from terrain push the bike out of this range enough to get into the main part of the
    stroke, which is very similar in geometry to many four bar systems, and actually fairly conventional
    if taken alone. The difference between teh two types of compressions is also what allows shocks like
    the 5th element to work.

    > 3- On a $1300 frame that is just going into production, let somebody else find the problems. Buy
    > version 1.1.

    As a relatively small company, Santa Cruz constantly upgrades parts. There aren't specific model
    years, persay, unless they're planning a major redesign. Therefore, the current version is probably
    1.2, or 1.3. A bunch of other "boutique" brands do the same.

    > 4- SC has a 1 year warranty. This is a $1300 frame with a one-year warranty! Specialized, Trek,
    > Kestrel, etc, have lifetime warranty on the frames. Christ, even my old Haro has a lifetime
    > warranty on the frame.
    SC
    > is essentially saying, "We will sell you an expensive frame, but do not
    ask
    > us to stand behind our work".

    Not all their bikes have it, for one thing. Second, SC provides pretty cheap replacement parts
    should you happen to get a non-warantee problem, such as a dent, from a crash, etc. Yes, its
    something to think about, and a good point.

    > -Dave

    And yes, I'm extremely biased, having one sitting in my room (but still not built up, argh!). I said
    consider it, and then gave examples of other bikes to try. The Blur is definitely not the
    be-all-end-all of mountain bikes - what fun would that be? However, its a new design, in his price
    range, that many many many people, including myself, find very attractive. Don't buy ANY bike
    without a test ride though - one man's heaven is another man's hell.

    Jon Bond
     
  7. Dave Stocker

    Dave Stocker Guest

    "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]...

    >> If I waited two years every time a new technology came out, I'd still be
    > shying away from 100mm forks, adjustable travel, fox forks (which I don't use, but if I wasn't
    > sponsored by Marzocchi I'd seriously consider), any
    of
    > the stable platform technologies (IE Epic, 5th element, manitou SPV)...
    why
    > wait? BTW, VPP is not new technology - search for Outland bicycles. They supposedly rode
    > really nice until they broke - fault of the engineering of the bike itself, not the suspension
    > system. Santa Cruz actually wanted to release teh blur earlier, but decided to iron out as
    > many bugs as they
    could
    > find before they put it out to market - not many companies will do that.
    >

    The Epic is new and old. The LRS (Bergwerk) rear triangle is a modified four bar system and has
    been around for a couple of years. The brain shock on the Epic is new. It is not that smart and
    as a whole, the Epic is a lesser bike than the Bergwerk that it is based on. It is great for
    racers, but given that Specialized replaced the FSR with it, I do not think they had intended to
    have only a bike for racers. Progressive has been building motorcycle shocks for years. The 5th
    element is not really that new. My father rides a Honda Valkyre with something from progressive
    akin to a 5th element.

    I have a 100mm Fox on my current ride, so you got me there.

    What I am saying is that often (but not always) things come to market before they are mature. There
    is only so much testing that the engineers can do and a user will eventually do something that was
    not in the QA testlist. The Superlight has had many small improvements since it was introduced.

    Lastly, why did nobody pick up on VPP when Outland did it? It would not have been expensive to
    licence VPP from Outland. Or the parents could have been picked up for a song. Good suspension
    designs get copied. Four bar: Specialized, Kestrel, Intense, Steppenwolf, yada, yada. LRS: Bergwerk,
    Meridia (sp?), Specialized. Single pivot: yada, yada

    > There's a reason you don't see many URT bikes anymore - they actually bob quite a lot, besides
    > being nasty. Also, don't try to say that bob is totally a rider problem. There's rotational
    > acceleration, torque, and all sorts of factors that determine which way the rear wheel moves under
    power.
    > Yes, if you've got a bad enough spin, any bike will bob, but there's a reason some bikes bob a
    > hell of a lot more in some gears than others.
    >

    I commute 20km a day on a URT (Katarga Proto Winner) bike and I used to ride trails with it. I have
    no problems with bob on that bike. I can even get out of the saddle and it is almost hardtail like.
    The pivot is just forward of the BB (Ala Maverick/Palomino). I never rode an extreme URT design such
    a Mantra, so I can't comment about them.

    The big downside of URT is that when you stand (say over rough ground), you are standing on the
    swingarm. They are not very active.

    > yes, I can - "kickback does not affect the blur". The suspension moves
    the
    > rear wheel in a very slightly s-curved path. When there is tension on the chain in the sag
    > position, it tends to move the rear wheel down the
    slope -
    > in other words, into the middle of the small curve at the bottom. This keeps the bike from bobbing
    > (much) from the sag position. The relatively slow speed compression will not push the bike far
    > enough past this point
    to
    > go into the main stroke of the shock. Higher speed compressions from terrain push the bike out of
    > this range enough to get into the main part
    of
    > the stroke, which is very similar in geometry to many four bar systems,
    and
    > actually fairly conventional if taken alone. The difference between teh
    two
    > types of compressions is also what allows shocks like the 5th element to work.
    >

    How much of that is VPP and how much is shock. I would like to compare a Blur and a four bar bike
    side by side; both with 5E shocks.

    > As a relatively small company, Santa Cruz constantly upgrades parts.
    There
    > aren't specific model years, persay, unless they're planning a major redesign. Therefore, the
    > current version is probably 1.2, or 1.3. A
    bunch
    > of other "boutique" brands do the same.

    Actually almost all manufacturers tweak the design. The Superlight is greatly improved. The last
    FSRs were a far cry from the first.

    >
    > And yes, I'm extremely biased, having one sitting in my room (but still
    not
    > built up, argh!). I said consider it, and then gave examples of other
    bikes
    > to try. The Blur is definitely not the be-all-end-all of mountain bikes - what fun would that be?
    > However, its a new design, in his price range,
    that
    > many many many people, including myself, find very attractive. Don't buy ANY bike without a test
    > ride though - one man's heaven is another man's hell.

    For all of my bitching, I might very well have bought one if they had had test bikes available over
    here. I called SC Europe and they had two. One was with a bike magazine and the other was in Berlin.
    I was not going all the way to Berlin to test ride a bike. I was never able to test ride one and
    then I got to thinking about all of the ways it could be overhyped.

    So take me with a grain of salt.

    -Dave
     
  8. Jon Bond

    Jon Bond Guest

    "Dave Stocker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >snip<
    >
    > Lastly, why did nobody pick up on VPP when Outland did it? It would not have been expensive to
    > licence VPP from Outland. Or the parents could
    have
    > been picked up for a song. Good suspension designs get copied. Four bar: Specialized, Kestrel,
    > Intense, Steppenwolf, yada, yada. LRS: Bergwerk, Meridia (sp?), Specialized. Single pivot:
    > yada, yada

    Technology was not up to optimizing that system yet. Besides, who wants to buy a suspension design
    that was known for breaking? Santa cruz took a chance, and so far it looks like it's paid off.

    > > There's a reason you don't see many URT bikes anymore - they actually
    bob
    > > quite a lot, besides being nasty. Also, don't try to say that bob is totally a rider problem.
    > > There's rotational acceleration, torque, and
    all
    > > sorts of factors that determine which way the rear wheel moves under
    > power.
    > > Yes, if you've got a bad enough spin, any bike will bob, but there's a reason some bikes bob a
    > > hell of a lot more in some gears than others.
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    <snip>
    > > yes, I can - "kickback does not affect the blur". The suspension moves
    > the
    > > rear wheel in a very slightly s-curved path. When there is tension on
    the
    > > chain in the sag position, it tends to move the rear wheel down the
    > slope -
    > > in other words, into the middle of the small curve at the bottom. This keeps the bike from
    > > bobbing (much) from the sag position. The
    relatively
    > > slow speed compression will not push the bike far enough past this point
    > to
    > > go into the main stroke of the shock. Higher speed compressions from terrain push the bike out
    > > of this range enough to get into the main part
    > of
    > > the stroke, which is very similar in geometry to many four bar systems,
    > and
    > > actually fairly conventional if taken alone. The difference between teh
    > two
    > > types of compressions is also what allows shocks like the 5th element to work.
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > How much of that is VPP and how much is shock. I would like to compare a Blur and a four bar bike
    > side by side; both with 5E shocks.

    None of the blurs have 5E shocks yet, as they just came out. I think right about now they're
    planning on bringing some out with them as an option.

    I demoed two single pivot bikes, a four bar bike, and the blur one right after another. Blur was
    DEFINITELY more solid pedalling than any of the others. Yeah, it still bobbed a bit when you stand,
    but nowhere near as much.

    > > As a relatively small company, Santa Cruz constantly upgrades parts.
    > There
    > > aren't specific model years, persay, unless they're planning a major redesign. Therefore, the
    > > current version is probably 1.2, or 1.3. A
    > bunch
    > > of other "boutique" brands do the same.
    >
    > Actually almost all manufacturers tweak the design. The Superlight is greatly improved. The last
    > FSRs were a far cry from the first.

    My bad, meant constant tweaking. Unless there's a major defect, most big manufacturers will just
    upgrade between model years. Smaller manufacturers can update mid production-run.

    >
    > >
    > > And yes, I'm extremely biased, having one sitting in my room (but still
    > not
    > > built up, argh!). I said consider it, and then gave examples of other
    > bikes
    > > to try. The Blur is definitely not the be-all-end-all of mountain
    bikes -
    > > what fun would that be? However, its a new design, in his price range,
    > that
    > > many many many people, including myself, find very attractive. Don't
    buy
    > > ANY bike without a test ride though - one man's heaven is another man's hell.
    >
    > For all of my bitching, I might very well have bought one if they had had test bikes available
    > over here. I called SC Europe and they had two. One was with a bike magazine and the other was in
    > Berlin. I was not going all the way to Berlin to test ride a bike. I was never able to test ride
    > one and then I got to thinking about all of the ways it could be overhyped.
    >

    good call - I'd never buy a bike without test riding it. Just doesn't make sense.

    > So take me with a grain of salt.

    Add a lime and some hard liquor and you might have yourself a deal.

    > -Dave

    Jon Bond still in a bad mood from all this fscking rain, so sorry if I snap at anybody ;)
     
  9. "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > If I waited two years every time a new technology came out, I'd still be shying away from
    > 100mm forks,

    I still prefer 80.

    > adjustable travel,

    A 100 mm fork that you spend twice as much on to run at 80 most of the time. Yawn.

    > fox forks

    I wouldn't have bought a 1.0 of Fox either, but after a couple of years, they sound pretty sweet.
    Not that I'm replacing my Bomber any time soon.

    > Epic,

    Hype.

    > 5th element,

    What?

    > manitou SPV... why wait? BTW, VPP is not new technology -

    Acronym overload, Commander. That bike shop job is making your head soft.

    CC
     
  10. Bomba

    Bomba Guest

    Dave Stocker wrote:

    > For all of my bitching, I might very well have bought one if they had had test bikes available
    > over here. I called SC Europe and they had two. One was with a bike magazine and the other was in
    > Berlin. I was not going all the way to Berlin to test ride a bike. I was never able to test ride
    > one and then I got to thinking about all of the ways it could be overhyped.

    JOOI, whereabouts in Germany are you?
     
  11. Dave Stocker

    Dave Stocker Guest

    "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]...

    > > So take me with a grain of salt.
    >
    > Add a lime and some hard liquor and you might have yourself a deal.
    >
    Deal!

    -Dave
     
  12. Dave Stocker

    Dave Stocker Guest

    "bomba" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]...
    > Dave Stocker wrote:
    >
    > > For all of my bitching, I might very well have bought one if they had
    had
    > > test bikes available over here. I called SC Europe and they had two.
    One
    > > was with a bike magazine and the other was in Berlin. I was not going
    all
    > > the way to Berlin to test ride a bike. I was never able to test ride
    one
    > > and then I got to thinking about all of the ways it could be overhyped.
    >
    > JOOI, whereabouts in Germany are you?
    >

    In the Kraichgau, about 15km south of Heidelberg.

    -Dave
     
  13. Bomba

    Bomba Guest

  14. Dave Stocker

    Dave Stocker Guest

    "bomba" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email protected]...
    > Dave Stocker wrote:
    >
    > >>JOOI, whereabouts in Germany are you?
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    > > In the Kraichgau, about 15km south of Heidelberg.
    >
    > What are the trails like down there? I was in Heidelberg last summer and it looked pretty good for
    > riding. Wondering if it's worth taking a trip down there.
    >
    > bomba (Dusseldorf)
    >

    HD does have some good riding. If you like tricky descents, there is a trail coming off of
    Konigstuhl and going down into the city that is a lot of fun. It passes through a place called
    Felsenmeer on the map and they were not kidding about the name. It is quite popular with the double
    crown crowd. There is also some singletrack over across the river on Heilegenstein. There is endless
    unpaved Waldweg of course.

    I ride mostly east of my house in a mix of farmland and forest. It is nothing spectacular, but
    nevertheless quite nice. Perhaps I will take pictures on a ride this weekend and post them.

    I am still searching for singletrack that lasts for more than a few hundred meters though. :(

    How is the riding up your way?

    -Dave (in Raunenberg-Rotenberg)
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...