Swapping internals in S-A hub?



"Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> Hmm. Not much meaningful discussion, though, from what I
> can see. Just two people disagreeing, with no relevant data.


Without wanting to appear conceited, there's a distinction to be made
between one participant who's familiar with only the myth, another who knows
the myth and uses the hubs in question, and others participants who aren't
familiar with the myth, the hubs, or the context.

Anyone who's familiar with these hubs knows that:

bottom gear is inefficient

and

bottom gear is not so inefficient as not to be useful.

The difficulty is trying to convey a sense of the problems with this
discussion to an audience that's broadly unfamiliar with hub gears in
general (hub gears never having had the popularity in North America that
they once had in Britain), and these hubs in particular.

Imagine if a rumour was in circulation that an S5 hub will play "God Save
the Queen" if shifted from middle to bottom gear without passing through
second. Someone familiar with the hubs might say it was nonsense - but
without proof, the rumour persists. Someone Googles and finds that some hubs
are said to emit noise in certain gears (a Rohloff plays "Im wunderschönen
Monat Mai" if shifted from eighth into seventh under load) so it's certainly
not impossible that a Sturmey plays "God Save the Queen" in certain gears.
Someone else says that he rode the hub in question fifteen years ago and
remembers distinctly that it made a noise, but it sounded more like "Rule
Britannia". Still, it was fifteen years ago. Someone postulates that a batch
of the hubs slipped through that played "Rule Britannia", which would
explain this exception to the well-known truth that all of these hubs play
"God Save the Queen".

For what it's worth, *everybody* knows that an S5/2 actually sings "Knees
Up, Mother Brown" to the tune of "Jerusalem". But only the batch with a blue
plastic oiler cap.

James Thomson
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"James Thomson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> a écrit:
>
> > Hmm. Not much meaningful discussion, though, from what I can see.
> > Just two people disagreeing, with no relevant data.

>
> Without wanting to appear conceited, there's a distinction to be made
> between one participant who's familiar with only the myth, another
> who knows the myth and uses the hubs in question, and others
> participants who aren't familiar with the myth, the hubs, or the
> context.
>
> Anyone who's familiar with these hubs knows that:
>
> bottom gear is inefficient
>
> and
>
> bottom gear is not so inefficient as not to be useful.


S-A's own numbers, as published earlier in the thread, show a steep drop
in efficiency in gears 1 and 5. Let's not forget that we do have some
facts to go on in this discussion. We should also mention that while
hub gears fall below the vaunted "98% efficiency" claimed for derailleur
systems, that latter number is achieved with optimum conditions- clean
drivetrain, centered chainline, fairly large cogs, etc. As cogs get
smaller, efficiency drops significantly (according to Berto's published
measurements in _The Dancing Chain_) and can easily be no better than a
hub geared system.

> The difficulty is trying to convey a sense of the problems with this
> discussion to an audience that's broadly unfamiliar with hub gears in
> general (hub gears never having had the popularity in North America
> that they once had in Britain), and these hubs in particular.


Hub gears were the dominant form of variable gearing in the US from WWII
until about the mid 1960s, when Schwinn began to have success in
marketing derailleur geared bikes. Youngsters under 30 might never have
ridden a bike with hub gears, but Frank and I and Jobst and a number of
other participants in this group are older than that. I still have a
bike with a three speed hub, which I ride frequently, and know a few
dozen people who ride bikes with hub gears frequently. They are not
really rara avis, after all, even if not so common. My friend Jim's
bike shop, which caters to bike commuters and the like rather than
racers, sells a fair number of modern new bikes (Breezer) with hub gears
annually.

The hub gear situation in Britain seems to be not radically different.
Derailleurs appear to have taken over there even earlier than in the US.
 
On May 24, 6:47 pm, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <0ee921d9-7339-4279-b1af-dac25d4bc...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 24, 1:59 am, "James Thomson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> a écrit:

>
> > > > I thought I read that the lowest gear of old S-A five speeds was
> > > > extremely inefficient. IOW, that shifting to low didn't really
> > > > reduce your workload significantly, but just gave you less speed.

>
> > > That's an old myth. There's some relevant discussion in this
> > > thread:

>
> > >http://groups.google.fr/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread
> > > /...

>
> > > James Thomson

>
> > Hmm. Not much meaningful discussion, though, from what I can see.
> > Just two people disagreeing, with no relevant data.

>
> > It would be nice to see some test data on the S-A 5 speed.

>
> In case your news server missed it, someone posted information they got
> from S-A about the efficiencies of the S-A 5 speed in the various gears.
> There was a pretty big drop in efficiency in gears 1 and 5. It should
> just a few posts back up the thread.


Ah, yes. That wasn't the news server (GG); that was my fault.
Thanks.

- Frank Krygowski
 
On May 25, 5:14 am, "James Thomson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> a écrit:
>
> > Hmm. Not much meaningful discussion, though, from what I
> > can see. Just two people disagreeing, with no relevant data.

>
> Without wanting to appear conceited, there's a distinction to be made
> between one participant who's familiar with only the myth, another who knows
> the myth and uses the hubs in question, and others participants who aren't
> familiar with the myth, the hubs, or the context.
>
> Anyone who's familiar with these hubs knows that:
>
> bottom gear is inefficient
>
> and
>
> bottom gear is not so inefficient as not to be useful.


James, pardon me, but you're really saying "I know I'm right and
others are wrong." Data trumps self confidence. I thank Carl for (as
usual) searching out actual data.

I'll also note, the only 5 speed S-A I've ever ridden (that old
Dunelt) did have shifting problems. I could give even more detail,
but suffice to say I was never satisfied with the reliability of its
shifting. So my impressions could be clouded by a bad sample.

- Frank Krygowski
 
"Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> > > Hmm. Not much meaningful discussion, though, from what I
> > > can see. Just two people disagreeing, with no relevant data.


> James, pardon me, but you're really saying "I know I'm right
> and others are wrong." Data trumps self confidence.


Data's nice, but in the absence of relevant data (as in the previous
thread), experience and inexperience aren't equivalent. I stand by my point.

James Thomson
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"James Thomson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> a écrit:
>
> > > > Hmm. Not much meaningful discussion, though, from what I can
> > > > see. Just two people disagreeing, with no relevant data.

>
> > James, pardon me, but you're really saying "I know I'm right and
> > others are wrong." Data trumps self confidence.

>
> Data's nice, but in the absence of relevant data (as in the previous
> thread), experience and inexperience aren't equivalent. I stand by my
> point.


So, to sum up, you know what you know and don't want to be bothered with
facts. Okee-dokee, I won't bother you again.
 
"A Muzi" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> the S-5 was a minor rework of the long-produced and popular
> FW gear train, so it wasn't, in a design sense, a totally new leap
> for Sturmey Archer. Twenty years of FW by 1966.
>
> There's no difference in the low gear of an FW or an S-5, the
> same parts being used in both.


Thanks Andrew, I'm aware of that - I rode FWs for quite some time before my
first five-speed, and still own a few, the oldest being a 1948. The
interesting thing is that you never hear this myth in relation to the FW
which, as you say, is mechanically identical except for the gear selector.

> p.s. I'd take a trigger shifted FW, FG, FB 4 speed over an
> S-5 with factory SA five speed controls any day.


So would I, but I prefer a double-trigger S5/2.

James Thomson
 
James Thomson said:
"A Muzi" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> the S-5 was a minor rework of the long-produced and popular
> FW gear train, so it wasn't, in a design sense, a totally new leap
> for Sturmey Archer. Twenty years of FW by 1966.
>
> There's no difference in the low gear of an FW or an S-5, the
> same parts being used in both.


Thanks Andrew, I'm aware of that - I rode FWs for quite some time before my
first five-speed, and still own a few, the oldest being a 1948. The
interesting thing is that you never hear this myth in relation to the FW
which, as you say, is mechanically identical except for the gear selector.

> p.s. I'd take a trigger shifted FW, FG, FB 4 speed over an
> S-5 with factory SA five speed controls any day.


So would I, but I prefer a double-trigger S5/2.

James Thomson
Sturmey Archer has recently come out with very nice "rapid fire" style thumb shifters for 3 and 5 speed hubs. I have one of the 5 speed ones, but I haven't tried it out yet.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca
 
Dan Burkhart wrote:

>>> the S-5 was a minor rework of the long-produced and popular FW
>>> gear train, so it wasn't, in a design sense, a totally new leap
>>> for Sturmey Archer. Twenty years of FW by 1966.


>>> There's no difference in the low gear of an FW or an S-5, the same
>>> parts being used in both.


>> Thanks Andrew, I'm aware of that - I rode FWs for quite some time
>> before my first five-speed, and still own a few, the oldest being a
>> 1948. The interesting thing is that you never hear this myth in
>> relation to the FW which, as you say, is mechanically identical
>> except for the gear selector.


>>> p.s. I'd take a trigger shifted FW, FG, FB 4 speed over an S-5
>>> with factory SA five speed controls any day.


>> So would I, but I prefer a double-trigger S5/2.


> Sturmey Archer has recently come out with very nice "rapid fire"
> style thumb shifters for 3 and 5 speed hubs. I have one of the 5
> speed ones, but I haven't tried it out yet.


Looking at the Sturmey Archer pages, I am disappointed to see they
never change, apparently because they believe they have the ultimate
hubs. The flanges are 2mm thick, a feature that in the aluminum hubs
causes large spoke hole deformation and on both steel and aluminum hub
(shells) causes spoke failure, the elbows of spokes being designed for
3mm flanges.

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_5spd_S5_A.php

My son's S5 hub has 3mm flanges because Tom Ritchey machined one from
aluminum bar stock for me. I am not amused. They never fixed the AW
3-speed hub to not pop out of top gear under continuous load.

Jobst Brandt
 
<[email protected]> a écrit:

> Looking at the Sturmey Archer pages, I am disappointed to see they
> never change, apparently because they believe they have the ultimate
> hubs. The flanges are 2mm thick, a feature that in the aluminum hubs
> causes large spoke hole deformation and on both steel and aluminum
> hub (shells) causes spoke failure, the elbows of spokes being designed
> for 3mm flanges.


I'm not sure where you found that information, but I have a modern
(Taiwanese production) X-RF5 aluminium shell here, and the flanges are 3mm
thick at the spoke holes. 1980s aluminium-shelled 3- and 5-speeds also have
3mm flanges. The 1940s and '50s alloy-shelled hubs did have thin, fragile
flanges.

James Thomson
 
James Thomson <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Looking at the Sturmey Archer pages, I am disappointed to see they
>> never change, apparently because they believe they have the ultimate
>> hubs. The flanges are 2mm thick, a feature that in the aluminum hubs
>> causes large spoke hole deformation and on both steel and aluminum
>> hub (shells) causes spoke failure, the elbows of spokes being designed
>> for 3mm flanges.


> I'm not sure where you found that information, but I have a modern
> (Taiwanese production) X-RF5 aluminium shell here, and the flanges
> are 3mm thick at the spoke holes. 1980s aluminium-shelled 3- and
> 5-speeds also have 3mm flanges. The 1940s and '50s alloy-shelled
> hubs did have thin, fragile flanges.


http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_5spd_S5_A.php

I am sure. The picture is accurate and the S5 shell that I have
measures 2mm. Tom Ritchey did his lathe work to make 3mm flanges of
good strength aluminum and it worked. I was impressed by his ability
to cut double lead threads for the drive side. The S5 I have is from
the 1970's.

Jobst Brandt
 
<[email protected]> a écrit:

> http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_5spd_S5_A.php


> I am sure. The picture is accurate and the S5 shell that I
> have measures 2mm.


The picture shows a steel-shelled hub.

> The S5 I have is from the 1970's.


and steel-shelled.

I don't dispute that Sturmey's steel-shelled hubs have thin flanges. Their
modern aluminium-shelled hubs, in common with those made in the 1980s, have
3mm flanges:

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_5spd_XRF5.php

In your previous post you made no distinction.

James Thomson
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> James Thomson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Looking at the Sturmey Archer pages, I am disappointed to see they
> >> never change, apparently because they believe they have the ultimate
> >> hubs. The flanges are 2mm thick, a feature that in the aluminum hubs
> >> causes large spoke hole deformation and on both steel and aluminum
> >> hub (shells) causes spoke failure, the elbows of spokes being designed
> >> for 3mm flanges.

>
> > I'm not sure where you found that information, but I have a modern
> > (Taiwanese production) X-RF5 aluminium shell here, and the flanges
> > are 3mm thick at the spoke holes. 1980s aluminium-shelled 3- and
> > 5-speeds also have 3mm flanges. The 1940s and '50s alloy-shelled
> > hubs did have thin, fragile flanges.

>
> http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_5spd_S5_A.php
>
> I am sure. The picture is accurate and the S5 shell that I have
> measures 2mm. Tom Ritchey did his lathe work to make 3mm flanges of
> good strength aluminum and it worked. I was impressed by his ability
> to cut double lead threads for the drive side. The S5 I have is from
> the 1970's.
>
> Jobst Brandt


Interesting. The S5 Jobst is linking to looks like a faithful
continuation of the classic S5 design. Conversely, James is referring to
the XRF5:

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_5spd_XRF5.php

Which is the "new" design which has probably been around quite some time
by now.

For all that, the old design does still appear to be available as a
stock item from some retailers:

<http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froogleUS/currency/USD/product-Sturmey-Ar
cher-Sturmey-Archer-5-Speed-SPRINTER-S5-Steel-Shell-Rear-Hub-with-Gear-Co
ntrol-HSJ839-36-hole-8035.htm>

So Sturmey is both good and bad! Pick your poison.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 
"Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> Interesting. The S5 Jobst is linking to looks like a faithful
> continuation of the classic S5 design.


There's a distinction to be made between the "classic" S5 of the sixties and
early seventies, and that modern hub, which is very similar to the Sprinter
5. The old S5 (referred to by Andrew above in the thread) used two control
cables, with a toggle chain on the right and a bell crank on the left:

http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/detail.php?id=104

The modern S5 and XRF5 are identical apart from the shell.

> For all that, the old design does still appear to be available
> as a stock item from some retailers:


One reason for that is that the big aluminium flanges of the XRF5 cause
clearance problems with the stays of some folding bikes.

James Thomson
 
James Thomson <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Looking at the Sturmey Archer pages, I am disappointed to see they
>> never change, apparently because they believe they have the ultimate
>> hubs. The flanges are 2mm thick, a feature that in the aluminum hubs
>> causes large spoke hole deformation and on both steel and aluminum
>> hub (shells) causes spoke failure, the elbows of spokes being designed
>> for 3mm flanges.


> I'm not sure where you found that information, but I have a modern
> (Taiwanese production) X-RF5 aluminium shell here, and the flanges
> are 3mm thick at the spoke holes. 1980s aluminium-shelled 3- and
> 5-speeds also have 3mm flanges. The 1940s and '50s alloy-shelled
> hubs did have thin, fragile flanges.


http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_5spd_S5_A.php

I am sure. The picture is accurate and the S5 shell that I have
measures 2mm. Tom Ritchey did his lathe work to make 3mm flanges of
good strength aluminum and it worked. I was impressed by his ability
to cut double lead threads for the drive side. The S5 I have is from
the 1970's.

Jobst Brandt
Someone went to a lot of trouble for naught.
http://i30.tinypic.com/oa81tg.jpg

Sturmey Archer's web site apears to not have caught up with their new product offerings. Here's some shots of the new 5 speed shifter. The 3 speed looks the same.
http://i29.tinypic.com/8zk7sx.jpg
http://i31.tinypic.com/2wd0h7c.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/346vyis.jpg
They also have not updated the technical info on the new 8 speed hub.The ratios have changed and the hub shell shape has changed.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca