Switching Shimano Triple-)Double on 5900 - chainline issues

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Jens Kurt Heyck, Nov 20, 2003.

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  1. I decided to convert my Trek 5900 from a Triple to a Double. So I got a Double crankset, double
    front & rear derailleurs, and an Ultegra double bottom bracket (109.5).

    After setting it up I've found that the 39-11 combination causes the chain to rub on the inside of
    the big chainring. I assume this is a chainline issue. Do I need to go back to using a Ultegra
    triple BB (118.5) even though the crankset is a double? Can I simply avoid this combination and be
    OK, or I'm I going to always have extra drivetrain friction because of a poor chainline?

    thanks in advance,

    Jens
     
    Tags:


  2. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I decided to convert my Trek 5900 from a Triple to a Double. So I got a Double crankset, double
    > front & rear derailleurs, and an Ultegra double bottom bracket (109.5).
    >
    > After setting it up I've found that the 39-11 combination causes the chain to rub on the inside of
    > the big chainring. I assume this is a chainline issue. Do I need to go back to using a Ultegra
    > triple BB (118.5) even though the crankset is a double? Can I simply avoid this combination and be
    > OK, or I'm I going to always have extra drivetrain friction because of a poor chainline?

    The small/small or big/big combos are a BAD thing. If you avoid these gears, you'll be OK.

    The 39/53 combo sees a bit of chain rubbing on the outer ring from about the third cog from smallest
    down. If you MUST ride in these gears, there's usually a trim click in the left lever.

    If you go to either Sheldon's site, or www.fixedgearfever.com you can find a gear inch or
    progression chart to show you where the overlap is. That way, you avoid funky chainlines while
    maintaining the same gear.

    Mike
     
  3. Jens: You *do* have correct chainline, and that's why it's scraping. You're running in as heavily
    crossed-over gear combo as you can get, with the chain describing a diagonal line between the small
    front and small rear cogs. Trimming the front derailleur probably won't help, because the chain is
    most likely scraping against the large chainring as it heads towards the rear of the bike.

    If you move the chainline out (using a longer spindle), you're going to have a very noisy drivetrain
    when in your larger chainring and, worse yet, you'll find the chain falling off the inside of the
    crank when you shift from the large to the small front chainring. That can be serious bad news and
    wreck your day if it happens at the wrong time!

    More than likely you'll find that 11/39 combo is close to something available when you're
    on your 53t.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

    "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I decided to convert my Trek 5900 from a Triple to a Double. So I got a Double crankset, double
    > front & rear derailleurs, and an Ultegra double bottom bracket (109.5).
    >
    > After setting it up I've found that the 39-11 combination causes the chain to rub on the inside of
    > the big chainring. I assume this is a chainline issue. Do I need to go back to using a Ultegra
    > triple BB (118.5) even though the crankset is a double? Can I simply avoid this combination and be
    > OK, or I'm I going to always have extra drivetrain friction because of a poor chainline?
    >
    >
    >
    > thanks in advance,
    >
    > Jens
     
  4. Harris

    Harris Guest

    Mike S. <[email protected]> wrote:

    > The small/small or big/big combos are a BAD thing. If you avoid these gears, you'll be OK.

    > The 39/53 combo sees a bit of chain rubbing on the outer ring from about the third cog from
    > smallest down. If you MUST ride in these gears, there's usually a trim click in the left lever.

    The trim click won't help the situation of the chain rubbing the big ring when in the 39/11. That
    rubbing is normal and, that combination should be avoided. The trim keeps the chain from rubbing
    on the FD.

    Art Harris
     
  5. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    "Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:Xs9vb.38448$A%[email protected]...
    > Mike S. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > The small/small or big/big combos are a BAD thing. If you avoid these gears, you'll be OK.
    >
    > > The 39/53 combo sees a bit of chain rubbing on the outer ring from about
    the
    > > third cog from smallest down. If you MUST ride in these gears, there's usually a trim click in
    > > the left lever.
    >
    > The trim click won't help the situation of the chain rubbing the big ring when in the 39/11. That
    > rubbing is normal and, that combination should be avoided. The trim keeps the chain from rubbing
    > on the FD.
    >
    Interesting, do you really need an 11t?
     
  6. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > "Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:Xs9vb.38448$A%[email protected]t...
    > > Mike S. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > The small/small or big/big combos are a BAD thing. If you avoid these gears, you'll be OK.
    > >
    > > > The 39/53 combo sees a bit of chain rubbing on the outer ring from about
    > the
    > > > third cog from smallest down. If you MUST ride in these gears, there's usually a trim click in
    > > > the left lever.
    > >
    > > The trim click won't help the situation of the chain rubbing the big ring when in the 39/11.
    > > That rubbing is normal and, that combination should be avoided. The trim keeps the chain from
    > > rubbing on the FD.
    > >
    > Interesting, do you really need an 11t?

    Yes. I use my 52x11 a lot more than I do my 30x32 granny. Neither one is used much, but the 30x32 is
    "practically never", while the 52x11 is "occasionally".

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  7. Thanks Mike! I was curious about this because the symptoms of extreme combinations with the triple
    were much different, i.e. the rubbing was on the cassette, not the chainring. I was concerned it
    might be symptomatic of a more general drivetrain alignment problem.

    I never use the extreme combinations in actual pedaling, but they're useful for quick chain
    length checking.

    thanks again,

    Jens

    "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Jens: You *do* have correct chainline, and that's why it's scraping. You're running in as heavily
    > crossed-over gear combo as you can get, with the chain describing a diagonal line between the
    > small front and small
    rear
    > cogs. Trimming the front derailleur probably won't help, because the
    chain
    > is most likely scraping against the large chainring as it heads towards
    the
    > rear of the bike.
    >
    > If you move the chainline out (using a longer spindle), you're going to
    have
    > a very noisy drivetrain when in your larger chainring and, worse yet,
    you'll
    > find the chain falling off the inside of the crank when you shift from the large to the small
    > front chainring. That can be serious bad news and
    wreck
    > your day if it happens at the wrong time!
    >
    > More than likely you'll find that 11/39 combo is close to something available when you're on
    > your 53t.
    >
    > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com
    >
    > "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > I decided to convert my Trek 5900 from a Triple to a Double. So I got a Double crankset, double
    > > front & rear derailleurs, and an Ultegra double bottom bracket (109.5).
    > >
    > > After setting it up I've found that the 39-11 combination causes the chain to rub on the inside
    > > of the big chainring. I assume this is a chainline issue. Do I need to go back to using a
    > > Ultegra triple BB (118.5) even though the crankset is a double? Can I simply avoid this
    > > combination and be OK, or I'm I going to always have extra drivetrain friction because of a poor
    > > chainline?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > thanks in advance,
    > >
    > > Jens
    > >
    > >
    >
     
  8. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Thanks Mike! I was curious about this because the symptoms of extreme combinations with the triple
    > were much different, i.e. the rubbing was on the cassette, not the chainring. I was concerned it
    > might be symptomatic of a more general drivetrain alignment problem.
    >
    > I never use the extreme combinations in actual pedaling, but they're useful for quick chain length
    > checking.
    >
    That the are...

    Mike

    > thanks again,
    >
    > Jens
    >
    >
    > "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Jens: You *do* have correct chainline, and that's why it's scraping. You're running in as
    > > heavily crossed-over gear combo as you can get,
    with
    > > the chain describing a diagonal line between the small front and small
    > rear
    > > cogs. Trimming the front derailleur probably won't help, because the
    > chain
    > > is most likely scraping against the large chainring as it heads towards
    > the
    > > rear of the bike.
    > >
    > > If you move the chainline out (using a longer spindle), you're going to
    > have
    > > a very noisy drivetrain when in your larger chainring and, worse yet,
    > you'll
    > > find the chain falling off the inside of the crank when you shift from
    the
    > > large to the small front chainring. That can be serious bad news and
    > wreck
    > > your day if it happens at the wrong time!
    > >
    > > More than likely you'll find that 11/39 combo is close to something available when you're on
    > > your 53t.
    > >
    > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com
    > >
    > > "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > I decided to convert my Trek 5900 from a Triple to a Double. So I got a Double crankset,
    > > > double front & rear derailleurs, and an Ultegra double bottom bracket (109.5).
    > > >
    > > > After setting it up I've found that the 39-11 combination causes the chain to rub on the
    > > > inside of the big chainring. I assume this is a chainline issue. Do I need to go back to using
    > > > a Ultegra triple BB (118.5) even though the crankset is a double? Can I simply avoid this
    > > > combination and be OK, or I'm I going to always have extra drivetrain friction because of a
    > > > poor chainline?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > thanks in advance,
    > > >
    > > > Jens
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
     
  9. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    > > > The small/small or big/big combos are a BAD thing. If you avoid these gears, you'll be OK.
    > >
    > > > The 39/53 combo sees a bit of chain rubbing on the outer ring from
    about
    > the
    > > > third cog from smallest down. If you MUST ride in these gears,
    there's
    > > > usually a trim click in the left lever.
    > >
    > > The trim click won't help the situation of the chain rubbing the big
    ring
    > > when in the 39/11. That rubbing is normal and, that combination should
    be
    > > avoided. The trim keeps the chain from rubbing on the FD.
    > >
    > Interesting, do you really need an 11t?
    >
    Its going to rub a first position 12t or 13t too, so what difference does it make?

    Mike
     
  10. "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:Xs9vb.38448$A%[email protected]...
    > > Mike S. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > The small/small or big/big combos are a BAD thing. If you avoid these gears, you'll be OK.
    > >
    > > > The 39/53 combo sees a bit of chain rubbing on the outer ring from
    about
    > the
    > > > third cog from smallest down. If you MUST ride in these gears,
    there's
    > > > usually a trim click in the left lever.
    > >
    > > The trim click won't help the situation of the chain rubbing the big
    ring
    > > when in the 39/11. That rubbing is normal and, that combination should
    be
    > > avoided. The trim keeps the chain from rubbing on the FD.
    > >
    > Interesting, do you really need an 11t?
    >
    >

    Yes. Riding buddies call me "Torque-mada"

    I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. ;-)

    --Jens
     
  11. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:Xs9vb.38448$A%[email protected]...
    > > > Mike S. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > The small/small or big/big combos are a BAD thing. If you avoid these gears, you'll be OK.
    >
    > > > > The 39/53 combo sees a bit of chain rubbing on the outer ring from
    > about the
    > > > > third cog from smallest down. If you MUST ride in these gears,
    > there's
    > > > > usually a trim click in the left lever.
    > > >
    > > > The trim click won't help the situation of the chain rubbing the big
    > ring
    > > > when in the 39/11. That rubbing is normal and, that combination should
    > be
    > > > avoided. The trim keeps the chain from rubbing on the FD.
    > > >
    > > Interesting, do you really need an 11t?
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Yes. Riding buddies call me "Torque-mada"
    >
    > I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. ;-)
    >
    > --Jens

    Dear Jens,

    Like you, I run a stately 53 x 11. Pay no attention to those hamsters frantically scampering around
    and spinning wildly.

    Carl Fogel
     
  12. "Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<86bvb.6085> > > Interesting, do you
    > >
    > > Yes. Riding buddies call me "Torque-mada"
    > >
    > > I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. ;-)
    > >
    > > --Jens
    >
    > Dear Jens,
    >
    > Like you, I run a stately 53 x 11. Pay no attention to those hamsters frantically scampering
    > around and spinning wildly.
    >
    > Carl Fogel

    You only get so many pedal spins in a lifetime... then you're finished So you need to be economical
    with them.

    Incidentally, I've had a problem with the Dura-ace 11-23 cassettes. The 3rd and 4th smallest gears
    seem to have a very slight grind to them. It seems to happen once per revolution like a bent tooth
    or something. I first noticed it when I started using it on the trainer indoor. I tried a brand new
    chain and a brand new cassette and had the same problem. I even tried a different wheel in case it
    was a hub or axle issue, but the grind was still there.

    No amount of tweaking barrel adjusters makes it go away. This does not happen with the DA
    12-25 & 12-27 cassettes. Have you noticed this? I'm wondering if Shimano hasn't made some
    defective cassetes.

    -j
     
  13. Jens-<< I decided to convert my Trek 5900 from a Triple to a Double. So I got a Double crankset,
    double front & rear derailleurs, and an Ultegra double bottom bracket (109.5).

    After setting it up I've found that the 39-11 combination causes the chain to rub on the inside of
    the big chainring. I assume this is a chainline issue. >><BR><BR>

    IT IS NOT A PROBLEM...with 9 cogs and little doodads on the big ring, you will experience this when
    in small ring and smallish cogs. It is NOT a problem that needs any solution othert than not riding
    cross chained.

    Jens- << Do I need to go back to using a Ultegra triple BB (118.5) even though the crankset is a
    double? >><BR><BR>

    Ya do and your chainline will be awful...front der may not work at all, or at least poorly.

    Jens- << Can I simply avoid this combination and be OK, or I'm I going to always have extra
    drivetrain friction because of a poor chainline? >><BR><BR>

    bing, bing, bing, we have a winner. Check your chainline , a line from the center of the crank to
    the 5th cog up, it will be an amazing straight line, parallel to the top tube.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  14. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<wjhvb.6151$%[email protected]>...
    > "Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<86bvb.6085> > > Interesting, do you
    > > >
    > > > Yes. Riding buddies call me "Torque-mada"
    > > >
    > > > I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. ;-)
    > > >
    > > > --Jens
    > >
    > > Dear Jens,
    > >
    > > Like you, I run a stately 53 x 11. Pay no attention to those hamsters frantically scampering
    > > around and spinning wildly.
    > >
    > > Carl Fogel
    >
    > You only get so many pedal spins in a lifetime... then you're finished So you need to be
    > economical with them.
    >
    > Incidentally, I've had a problem with the Dura-ace 11-23 cassettes. The 3rd and 4th smallest gears
    > seem to have a very slight grind to them. It seems to happen once per revolution like a bent tooth
    > or something. I first noticed it when I started using it on the trainer indoor. I tried a brand
    > new chain and a brand new cassette and had the same problem. I even tried a different wheel in
    > case it was a hub or axle issue, but the grind was still there.
    >
    > No amount of tweaking barrel adjusters makes it go away. This does not happen with the DA 12-25 &
    > 12-27 cassettes. Have you noticed this? I'm wondering if Shimano hasn't made some defective
    > cassetes.
    >
    >
    > -j

    Dear Jens,

    No, I haven't noticed any odd gear-tooth problems, but my opinion on the matter is probably
    worthless. I use ancient friction shifters and only a few gears. Even worse, they're 7-speed
    cassettes, of which I have a fair number of spares.

    Probably 80% of my riding is done in 53 x 11. Most of the rest is done in 39 x whatever the second
    largest rear cog is, sometimes the third. My daily 15-mile ride is, from what I gather, peculiar,
    but extremely pleasant.

    I do notice, however, that Shimano rear cogs have various indents, scallops, and minor carvings
    intended to help the chain shift. Possibly you have some kind of chain mis-match? I don't know
    enough about this to say anything helpful, but luckily there are an awful lot of remarkably
    knowledgeable and helpful fellows just aching to see questions like this.

    Good luck,

    Carl Fogel
     
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