T-Mobile strategy



Ted B

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It's difficult to interpret the real details of that situation from such a distant, third-party perspective. However, learning that one's mother has serious cancer almost certainly renders the TdF and competitive nature in general suddenly much less important. Perhaps Basso found himself upset enough with the news such that he turned to the world's foremost spokesperson for cancer patients, and fellow cyclist for a bit of emotional support. One could also speculate that Basso more or less conceded his chances at winning the tour right there, while LA on the other hand never had any notion of NOT winning it. With this being a mutual realization, LA more or less offered his wheel as a conciliatory gesture, which was obviously accepted. With that, Riis maybe opted for the offer of a 'bird in the hand' with a podium finish given the emotional state of his top rider. Of course, this is but wild speculation.

Nevertheless, bravado on LA's part it is, but then again, it's that type of confidence and determination that factors into LA's TdF record, regardless of the true nature of said conversation.
 

MJtje

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So 1st and 2nd place can't be friends............off-court/off-road they can be friends in the peloton they need to be enemy's!

Basso was to nice, because he knew last year he would lose the tour! That's the problem with most riders.........(in there heart they know there is one cocky texan who doesn't give a F*** what people think of him: just winning the race which matters to his sponsors) That's how a sportmind needs to work.....the selfish ones are the best!

limerickman said:
The fact of the matter is that two teams, which are supposed to be competing with each other, were engaged in phone conversations.

As a cycling fan, you'd be aware that when this conversation took place last year, the race was finely poised with Basso and LA contending for first and second place.
Why would first and second place be phoning each other ?

I only replied to your point because you attempted to diminish the point that there was something going on between LA and Basso at the 2004 TDF, by referring to it as being hilarious.

At a minimum, that conversation referred by Procycling shows that they were in cahoots to some degree.
 

Ullefan

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MJtje said:
So 1st and 2nd place can't be friends............off-court/off-road they can be friends in the peloton they need to be enemy's!

Basso was to nice, because he knew last year he would lose the tour! That's the problem with most riders.........(in there heart they know there is one cocky texan who doesn't give a F*** what people think of him: just winning the race which matters to his sponsors) That's how a sportmind needs to work.....the selfish ones are the best!
allez VINOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :)
 

JohnO

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And what if they were? Is it acceptable for two or three teams to collude to attack Armstrong and DC, but unacceptable for DC to collude with another team to stay on top? Whether or not that was in CSC's best interests is a matter for Riis to decide.

I believe there have been quite a few occasions in the last six tours where teams have worked together to (unsuccessfully) attack LA. And other teams have worked to help him. Unless UCI regulations forbid it (and they don't) co opting the assistance of other teams is just part of a winning formula. Always has been.

In any case, I have a hard time believing that Riis and Basso would bargain away the MJ when they were that close. Whatever DC could have promised them would pale in comparision to the prestige of being the team that knocked Lance out of a record breaking #6.

And the suggestion that Lance used his assistance with Basso's mother as a quid pro quo for help in the 2004 TDF is not just inaccurate, it's callous beyond words. Lance's record in that regard is crystal clear: he has helped anyone who asks for assistance with cancer, and has never asked for anything in return. Procycling should be ashamed of themselves for even hinting at such a wretched suggestion.

limerickman said:
The fact of the matter is that two teams, which are supposed to be competing with each other, were engaged in phone conversations.
As a cycling fan, you'd be aware that when this conversation took place last year, the race was finely poised with Basso and LA contending for first and second place.
Why would first and second place be phoning each other ?

I only replied to your point because you attempted to diminish the point that there was something going on between LA and Basso at the 2004 TDF, by referring to it as being hilarious.

At a minimum, that conversation referred by Procycling shows that they were in cahoots to some degree.
 

limerickman

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Ted B said:
It's difficult to interpret the real details of that situation from such a distant, third-party perspective. However, learning that one's mother has serious cancer almost certainly renders the TdF and competitive nature in general suddenly much less important. Perhaps Basso found himself upset enough with the news such that he turned to the world's foremost spokesperson for cancer patients, and fellow cyclist for a bit of emotional support. One could also speculate that Basso more or less conceded his chances at winning the tour right there, while LA on the other hand never had any notion of NOT winning it. With this being a mutual realization, LA more or less offered his wheel as a conciliatory gesture, which was obviously accepted. With that, Riis maybe opted for the offer of a 'bird in the hand' with a podium finish given the emotional state of his top rider. Of course, this is but wild speculation.

Nevertheless, bravado on LA's part it is, but then again, it's that type of confidence and determination that factors into LA's TdF record, regardless of the true nature of said conversation.

The race was finely poised when the telephone call took place and Basso did not appear to try to race LA, at that point in the race or indeed toward the end of the race either.
That's my point.
 

limerickman

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rejobako said:
Your point is taken to the extent that you have indeed convinced me that Armstrong and Basso's conversations were more involved than I had been aware, although as to your question of "why would they be talking to each other" -- it was reported by several sources last year that Armstrong, upon learning of Basso's mother's battle with pancreatic cancer, took it upon himself to talk to Basso about referrals to specific physicians, to lend support through his foundation, etc. A cynic would suggest his motivations were self-interested. Perhaps, but it does provide a plausible explanation of why the #1 and #2 GC contenders would be on the telephone, other than to swear a blood oath to each other.

As for my "hilarious" comment, I was simply commenting on your characterization that telephone conversations can be "captured on film". Not unless you have two cameras and a split screen . . . . ;)

Just to confirm, I made the point about Basso/Armstrong co-operating because, even if one disregards the phone conversation, it appeared that when Basso had the opportunity to attack LA, he didn't at that point during the race.

As regards cancer and his mother : well that is another issue and I didn't express any thoughts on that nor was I implying anything about it.
My comments were in respect of racing in the TDF 2004 (or lack of racing, I should say, on Basso's part..........)
 

Tejano

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limerickman said:
The fact of the matter is that two teams, which are supposed to be competing with each other, were engaged in phone conversations.
As a cycling fan, you'd be aware that when this conversation took place last year, the race was finely poised with Basso and LA contending for first and second place.
Why would first and second place be phoning each other ?

I only replied to your point because you attempted to diminish the point that there was something going on between LA and Basso at the 2004 TDF, by referring to it as being hilarious.

At a minimum, that conversation referred by Procycling shows that they were in cahoots to some degree.
Do you really think Basso could have beaten LA last year! Basso was smart, he knew he didn´t have the stuff! If you can beat them join them! He finished 3rd, that´s on the podium! Pretty Coy Roy!

And aren´t teammates supposed to work together? Poor LeMond! It´s called bicycle racing! and it´s a little like politics at times, you scratch my back I´ll scratch yours!

The real question is what happens today! Is LA bluffing? Will T-Mobile bit and take the lead and push hard today to try and break LA?

Doesn´t anyone remember last year in the TDF LA was left alone on the first climb! Isolated from his teammates! And then they thouroughly disected the entire peloton.

If anything it will be interesting!
 

cmonie

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I am so glad to see Armstrong have to deal with what Ulrich had to for the past five years since he never had a strong team to carry him, while USPS used to save Armstrong's ass in the mountains year after year. We will see what Discovery does tomorrow, baby!!

Peace.

M
 

Craig Strong

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Mar 21, 2004
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Getting Back to T- Mobile,
Now Vino is looking so strong, Ullrich looking good and Kloden riding into form, who are the domestics going to work for?
I think they should start looking at Vino as their No. 1. as the future of the team really is on his back.
Does anyone know why Eric Zabel was left off this year?
 

JohnO

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Craig Strong said:
Getting Back to T- Mobile,
Now Vino is looking so strong, Ullrich looking good and Kloden riding into form, who are the domestics going to work for?
I think they should start looking at Vino as their No. 1. as the future of the team really is on his back.
Does anyone know why Eric Zabel was left off this year?

Zabel was left off because a sprinter doesn't help them win stages. T-Mobile is putting on the appearance of a real team this year. This could be interesting - a real race. With the talent T-Mobile has assembled, all they need is a little teamwork.

But by the looks of stage 9, they'd better stop worrying about Armstrong, and start worrying about that darn mountain biker...
 

JensCph

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Jul 9, 2005
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Not only is Zabel unable to help in the mountains, but if he is on the team, he will require the assistance of 2-3 riders for the sprints as well as the whole team to chase in break aways. And that will hurt the teams chances of going for the victory. As strong as Vino, Klöden, and Ülrich are, they cant do it all as a trio only.

I'm a bit surprised that Rasmussen is going for the victory. Yesterday he purposely dropped back after the final mountain so he'd loose another minute. And he did so on his TT as well, to be able to get the leash that he needs to pick up KOM points. He has also said many times that finishing TDF as nr 4 or number 44 is the same to him. So his picked up time today could very well work against him for the KOM. Nobody can afford to give him another 10 mins lead in the coming mountains.
 

Tejano

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cmonie said:
I am so glad to see Armstrong have to deal with what Ulrich had to for the past five years since he never had a strong team to carry him, while USPS used to save Armstrong's ass in the mountains year after year. We will see what Discovery does tomorrow, baby!!

Peace.

M
Last year during the first mountain stage of the TDF Armstrong was left to fend for himself in the mountains while the rest of his team climbed at their own rythm! LA was all alone with the other main GC contenders! Just like this year!

The difference was this year someone attacked! Kloden gained some time but if he couldn´t even beat that Robo rider after he was out in front working all day it doesn´t look good for Kloden tomorrow!

Ullrich has been left alone in the mountains? All he does is just sit on LA´s ass all day well protected! He doesn´t need teammates up their, all he has to do is hang with LA, but he can´t! He is at no disadvantage!

To attack in the mountains it is very beneficially to have a good team but if Ullrich couldn´t even defend in the mountain I´m at a loss as to what he would have done in the mountains!

Weren´t German fans confused as to why Vino attacked not only LA yesterday but also Ullrich! What if Ullrich was dropped by Vino´s attack!

Discovery Channel definitly wanted to rest the team the other day because tomorrow the TDF will be decided! LA always attacks on the first mountain top finish and his team will be well rested and ready to deliver! The question is will any T-mobile rider even be able to attack!

Vino is the only rider I see capable of hanging with LA and I don´t think he will have enough especially with the main support going to Ullrich. It will be interesting if LA drops Ullrich if Vino will stay to support Ullrich or leave him on his own! Those German fans were not happy like I said that Vino attacked Ullrich the other day!

Tour Over
 

Fixey

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Tejano said:
Last year during the first mountain stage of the TDF Armstrong was left to fend for himself in the mountains while the rest of his team climbed at their own rythm! LA was all alone with the other main GC contenders! Just like this year!

The difference was this year someone attacked! Kloden gained some time but if he couldn´t even beat that Robo rider after he was out in front working all day it doesn´t look good for Kloden tomorrow!

Ullrich has been left alone in the mountains? All he does is just sit on LA´s ass all day well protected! He doesn´t need teammates up their, all he has to do is hang with LA, but he can´t! He is at no disadvantage!

To attack in the mountains it is very beneficially to have a good team but if Ullrich couldn´t even defend in the mountain I´m at a loss as to what he would have done in the mountains!

Weren´t German fans confused as to why Vino attacked not only LA yesterday but also Ullrich! What if Ullrich was dropped by Vino´s attack!

Discovery Channel definitly wanted to rest the team the other day because tomorrow the TDF will be decided! LA always attacks on the first mountain top finish and his team will be well rested and ready to deliver! The question is will any T-mobile rider even be able to attack!

Vino is the only rider I see capable of hanging with LA and I don´t think he will have enough especially with the main support going to Ullrich. It will be interesting if LA drops Ullrich if Vino will stay to support Ullrich or leave him on his own! Those German fans were not happy like I said that Vino attacked Ullrich the other day!

Tour Over

Vino did not attack Jan......
The fact that you dont understand why Vino attacked on that stage might indicate you should spend a little more time riding and a little less time writing :)
 

limerickman

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Fixey said:
Vino did not attack Jan......
The fact that you dont understand why Vino attacked on that stage might indicate you should spend a little more time riding and a little less time writing :)

Fix - we been telling him this for weeks !
 

Tejano

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limerickman said:
Fix - we been telling him this for weeks !
That was the perception of some of the German fans! If I understood the Spanish commentary correctly.

That is what Pedro Delgado and his side kick said! They also said that Vino may not feel welcome at T-mobile next year and may leave because of this attitude!

Now if say Mayo attacks LA tomorrow on the first summit would it be correct to say Mayo was attacking Ullrich also? Obviously Vino attacked not only LA but everyone else on the climb including Ullrich. That is just a matter of fact!

Now the intention wasn´t to attack Ullrich but he had to keep the pace or he would have been dropped! Kloden attacked not only LA but Ullrich, Vino, and all the other GC contenders and took 39 seconds was it out of them all!

Ullrich and Vino are his teammates so most people wouldn´t use the term attack but literally that´s what happened! I know Vino´s intention wasn´t to attack Ullrich but you tell me why the German fans are angry?

If I were T-Moble I see two choices!

1. conform to Discoveries game plan and hope that one of your riders is stronger than LA. Not the best choice in my opinion.

2. attack LA on the first Cat one climb tomorrow with Vino or better Kloden. Kloden must go all out on the attack and tank his GC hopes. Make Disco work before the decisive climb or hope like hell some one tries to bridge across to Kloden and the break works making Disco work across the flats before the final climb. You have to separate LA from his team on the last climb as far down as possible. Then let the attacks begin!

3. hope you can attack Disco early on the last climb and drop his entire team! If not I see at least Azevedo neutrilizing most of the attacks and LA comes out on top at the end anyway.

The only way to beat LA is if he has a weak team and he doesn´t! His team will control the mountains just like last year and this Tour is "Game Over Man"!

Problem I
 

whiteboytrash

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...but if Ullrich has prior knowledge of the attacks then he's not being attacked....... (remember shoes first, pants second ;o) )

Tejano said:
That was the perception of some of the German fans! If I understood the Spanish commentary correctly.

That is what Pedro Delgado and his side kick said! They also said that Vino may not feel welcome at T-mobile next year and may leave because of this attitude!

Now if say Mayo attacks LA tomorrow on the first summit would it be correct to say Mayo was attacking Ullrich also? Obviously Vino attacked not only LA but everyone else on the climb including Ullrich. That is just a matter of fact!

Now the intention wasn´t to attack Ullrich but he had to keep the pace or he would have been dropped! Kloden attacked not only LA but Ullrich, Vino, and all the other GC contenders and took 39 seconds was it out of them all!

Ullrich and Vino are his teammates so most people wouldn´t use the term attack but literally that´s what happened! I know Vino´s intention wasn´t to attack Ullrich but you tell me why the German fans are angry?

If I were T-Moble I see two choices!

1. conform to Discoveries game plan and hope that one of your riders is stronger than LA. Not the best choice in my opinion.

2. attack LA on the first Cat one climb tomorrow with Vino or better Kloden. Kloden must go all out on the attack and tank his GC hopes. Make Disco work before the decisive climb or hope like hell some one tries to bridge across to Kloden and the break works making Disco work across the flats before the final climb. You have to separate LA from his team on the last climb as far down as possible. Then let the attacks begin!

3. hope you can attack Disco early on the last climb and drop his entire team! If not I see at least Azevedo neutrilizing most of the attacks and LA comes out on top at the end anyway.

The only way to beat LA is if he has a weak team and he doesn´t! His team will control the mountains just like last year and this Tour is "Game Over Man"!

Problem I
 

Tejano

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whiteboytrash said:
...but if Ullrich has prior knowledge of the attacks then he not being attacked....... (remember shoes first, pants second ;o) )
Explain that to the Germans! It´s all your perspective! Prior knowledge is an interesting way to define! Shoes, Pants it doesn´t really matter in the end it´s all the same!

L-man from what I can tell this Tour is already over! Disco´s big guns are well rested for the begining of the end (of this tour and LA´s career) while Vino and Kloden have already been expending precious energy! The Trident can not beat the H-bomb!

All for one and one for all! If T-mobile wants to win they need to be resting Kloden and Vino not using them up so early! Three guy´s caressing their GC standings is not going to beat Disco´s team of sacrifice! Popo even took it easy the other day to prepare to work for his team leader!

Tomorrow will be the devistating for T-mobile!
 

limerickman

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Tejano said:
L-man from what I can tell this Tour is already over! Disco´s big guns are well rested for the begining of the end (of this tour and LA´s career) while Vino and Kloden have already been expending precious energy! The Trident can not beat the H-bomb!

All for one and one for all! If T-mobile wants to win they need to be resting Kloden and Vino not using them up so early! Three guy´s caressing their GC standings is not going to beat Disco´s team of sacrifice! Popo even took it easy the other day to prepare to work for his team leader!

Tomorrow will be the devistating for T-mobile!

Err, Popovcyh was dropped on stage 8, as was the rest of the Discovery riders.

What version of the TDF are you watching anyhow ?
The alternative version perhaps ?

This TDF is far from over : it's all to play for as I said last week when some of the other wafflers were posting their pearls of wisdom, after stage 1.