Tactics: What should Pereiro have done?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by steve, Jul 17, 2005.

  1. steve

    steve Guest

    Tough question, I think. The 4 men knew they werent getting caught unless
    they stopped for a cup of coffee. And George couldnt have cared how many
    of them were together at the finish so long as he was one of them. So he
    wouldnt attack, and he wouldnt pull...all he had to do was cover moves. No
    doubt they all knew George was the strongest sprinter. So how do you deal
    with him.

    The classic option is for the three to attack him again and again so that
    George chases all the attacks...but when the first attack results in a two
    man sorting that option disappears. So Pereiro could attack repeatedly, but
    didnt seem to have the power left. If you cant drop George (and he couldnt)
    what then? Hook him?

    Looked like he was just trying to take the sprint out of George with
    tempo...a nearly brain dead option....or were those little accelerations
    actually quickly covered attacks?

    When you come down to it, if you dont have the legs, you have no options.

    steve
    --
    "Local firemen improvised."
    Benny Hill
     
    Tags:


  2. Last2Know

    Last2Know Guest

    On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:20:35 +0000, steve wrote:

    > Tough question, I think. The 4 men knew they werent getting caught unless
    > they stopped for a cup of coffee. And George couldnt have cared how many
    > of them were together at the finish so long as he was one of them. So he
    > wouldnt attack, and he wouldnt pull...all he had to do was cover moves. No
    > doubt they all knew George was the strongest sprinter. So how do you deal
    > with him.


    I don't think it was possible to predict who would survive the
    final climb together, much less in any shape to sprint.
    Pereiro was successful in getting rid of Boogard, Sevilla,
    Brochard, and Caucchioli...but Hincapie was also able to do
    that while expending less effort. So it was a pretty good
    race by Pereiro, but a better one by Hincapie. If Pereiro
    had been able to predict that Hincapie was the strongest
    or second strongest next to him, then he should have and
    probably would have taken Hincapie's wheel for a while.
    He didn't do that because either a) he didn't actually think that,
    or b) his real purpose was to try and move up higher
    in the internal Phonak pecking order.

    The main thing Pereiro should get criticized for is his post-race
    whine about his second place finish. A few other
    facts put his day of big pulls in perspective: 1) Hincapie didn't attack
    him until the final meters, 2) there was nothing stopping him from slowing
    and letting others lead - except that if he had done that, he might not
    have shaken the other 4 riders, 3) unlike the situation with DSC, the
    highest placed GC rider on his team, Landis, could actually have used his
    help towards his outside shot at a podium position (pretty much gone after
    today). In context, it was pretty lame of him to imply that he had
    been double crossed by Hincapie.
     
  3. "Last2Know" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]
    > On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:20:35 +0000, steve wrote:
    >
    >> Tough question, I think. The 4 men knew they werent getting caught
    >> unless
    >> they stopped for a cup of coffee. And George couldnt have cared how
    >> many
    >> of them were together at the finish so long as he was one of them. So he
    >> wouldnt attack, and he wouldnt pull...all he had to do was cover moves.
    >> No
    >> doubt they all knew George was the strongest sprinter. So how do you
    >> deal
    >> with him.

    >
    > I don't think it was possible to predict who would survive the
    > final climb together, much less in any shape to sprint.
    > Pereiro was successful in getting rid of Boogard, Sevilla,
    > Brochard, and Caucchioli...but Hincapie was also able to do
    > that while expending less effort. So it was a pretty good
    > race by Pereiro, but a better one by Hincapie. If Pereiro
    > had been able to predict that Hincapie was the strongest
    > or second strongest next to him, then he should have and
    > probably would have taken Hincapie's wheel for a while.
    > He didn't do that because either a) he didn't actually think that,
    > or b) his real purpose was to try and move up higher
    > in the internal Phonak pecking order.
    >
    > The main thing Pereiro should get criticized for is his post-race
    > whine about his second place finish. A few other
    > facts put his day of big pulls in perspective: 1) Hincapie didn't attack
    > him until the final meters, 2) there was nothing stopping him from slowing
    > and letting others lead - except that if he had done that, he might not
    > have shaken the other 4 riders, 3) unlike the situation with DSC, the
    > highest placed GC rider on his team, Landis, could actually have used his
    > help towards his outside shot at a podium position (pretty much gone after
    > today). In context, it was pretty lame of him to imply that he had
    > been double crossed by Hincapie.
    >
    >
    >

    When Caucchioli attacked at the bottom of the last climb and Pereiro dragged
    George back up to him, game was over. That was the time for Pereiro to play
    a little chicken and force George into the game. Who knows.....
     
  4. Last2Know

    Last2Know Guest

    On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:20:27 -0700, Maximillian Leon III wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:p[email protected]
    >> On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:20:35 +0000, steve wrote:
    >>
    >>> Tough question, I think. The 4 men knew they werent getting caught
    >>> unless
    >>> they stopped for a cup of coffee. And George couldnt have cared how
    >>> many
    >>> of them were together at the finish so long as he was one of them. So he
    >>> wouldnt attack, and he wouldnt pull...all he had to do was cover moves.
    >>> No
    >>> doubt they all knew George was the strongest sprinter. So how do you
    >>> deal
    >>> with him.

    >>
    >> I don't think it was possible to predict who would survive the
    >> final climb together, much less in any shape to sprint.
    >> Pereiro was successful in getting rid of Boogard, Sevilla,
    >> Brochard, and Caucchioli...but Hincapie was also able to do
    >> that while expending less effort. So it was a pretty good
    >> race by Pereiro, but a better one by Hincapie. If Pereiro
    >> had been able to predict that Hincapie was the strongest
    >> or second strongest next to him, then he should have and
    >> probably would have taken Hincapie's wheel for a while.
    >> He didn't do that because either a) he didn't actually think that,
    >> or b) his real purpose was to try and move up higher
    >> in the internal Phonak pecking order.
    >>
    >> The main thing Pereiro should get criticized for is his post-race
    >> whine about his second place finish. A few other
    >> facts put his day of big pulls in perspective: 1) Hincapie didn't attack
    >> him until the final meters, 2) there was nothing stopping him from slowing
    >> and letting others lead - except that if he had done that, he might not
    >> have shaken the other 4 riders, 3) unlike the situation with DSC, the
    >> highest placed GC rider on his team, Landis, could actually have used his
    >> help towards his outside shot at a podium position (pretty much gone after
    >> today). In context, it was pretty lame of him to imply that he had
    >> been double crossed by Hincapie.
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > When Caucchioli attacked at the bottom of the last climb and Pereiro dragged
    > George back up to him, game was over. That was the time for Pereiro to play
    > a little chicken and force George into the game. Who knows.....


    There's three different questions here. Q1 - "What was the best
    strategy for Pereiro to win the stage if he had perfect knowledge
    of the strength of the other riders?", Q2 - "What should Pereiro
    have done to win the stage given the information he had
    available to him?", and Q3 - "What should Pereiro have done to help
    his team most in the GC?"

    The answer to Q1 is that he should have taken Hincapie's wheel
    when he could. For an answer to Q2, his racing performance
    was not too bad since he beat 4 or the other 5 guys impressively.
    He just shouldn't be whining about the 5th guy cheating him.
    As far as Q3 goes, he kind of sucked since he and Landis are
    probably blown now and Landis is out of the GC running.
     
  5. SDK

    SDK Guest

    Right. He had no options. Pereiro tried to drop him 4 or 5 times in the
    last few km when it was still steep. Someone needs to explain to him
    that drafting on that kind of steep grade saved Hincapie 1%, maybe 2%
    tops. He got blown away by more than that 2% in the sprint.--Shayana
    Kadidal
     
  6. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    steve wrote:
    >
    > Tough question, I think. The 4 men knew they werent getting caught unless
    > they stopped for a cup of coffee. And George couldnt have cared how many
    > of them were together at the finish so long as he was one of them. So he
    > wouldnt attack, and he wouldnt pull...all he had to do was cover moves. No
    > doubt they all knew George was the strongest sprinter. So how do you deal
    > with him.



    Reached into his pocketbook of money.
     
  7. Pereiro said that he couldn't hear anything from his radio transmitter
    because of the crowd noise, so he didn't know how far Boogerd was
    behind, so he felt there was no choice but to hurry up to the finish
    line.

    -ilan
     
  8. steve

    steve Guest

    On 17-Jul-2005, smacked up and reeling, Last2Know <[email protected]>
    blindly formulated
    the following incoherence:

    > I don't think it was possible to predict who would survive the
    > final climb together, much less in any shape to sprint.


    True, but not the point, I think. Both circumstance and reputation made GH
    the obvious favorite, even if he secretly was toasted...which he obviously
    wasnt. Pereiro had to act as if GH was the stronger if it came to the last
    100M, and he did just that to the best of his momentary ability. And if GH
    was toast, then P. would have discovered that quickly after a couple of
    attacks, so the safe assumption is George wins in a sprint. And if the
    others had been strong enough to attack, you can bet all eyes would go to
    George to take up the chase. And if GH was under attack he probably would
    take up the chase because he knows himself to be the strongest sprinter in
    that bunch and no chase means a lost opportunity. It's either chase and
    hope you've still got it, or watch the attack go up the road. For the
    others it's let George chase, or lose to George if you chase with the big
    guy on your wheel. Of course, if they thought GH was really toast, they
    might chase anyway. But circumstances said otherwise.

    > Pereiro was successful in getting rid of Boogard, Sevilla,
    > Brochard, and Caucchioli...but Hincapie was also able to do
    > that while expending less effort. So it was a pretty good
    > race by Pereiro, but a better one by Hincapie. If Pereiro
    > had been able to predict that Hincapie was the strongest
    > or second strongest next to him, then he should have and
    > probably would have taken Hincapie's wheel for a while.


    That's the thing, though...GH was probably comfortable with the group
    arriving together and was unlikely to attack or take a pull. P. simply had
    to try to drop GH with accelerations...from the front, unfortunately. But
    GH was too strong.

    But I agree with the bottom line. P. did all he could under the
    circumstances and had to settle for second. Sometimes you just cant win.

    steve
    --
    "Local firemen improvised."
    Benny Hill
     
  9. Last2Know

    Last2Know Guest

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:43:19 +0000, steve wrote:

    >
    > On 17-Jul-2005, smacked up and reeling, Last2Know <[email protected]>
    > blindly formulated
    > the following incoherence:
    >
    >> I don't think it was possible to predict who would survive the
    >> final climb together, much less in any shape to sprint.

    >
    > True, but not the point, I think. Both circumstance and reputation made GH
    > the obvious favorite, even if he secretly was toasted...which he obviously
    > wasnt. Pereiro had to act as if GH was the stronger if it came to the last
    > 100M, and he did just that to the best of his momentary ability. And if GH
    > was toast, then P. would have discovered that quickly after a couple of
    > attacks, so the safe assumption is George wins in a sprint. And if the
    > others had been strong enough to attack, you can bet all eyes would go to
    > George to take up the chase. And if GH was under attack he probably would
    > take up the chase because he knows himself to be the strongest sprinter in
    > that bunch and no chase means a lost opportunity. It's either chase and
    > hope you've still got it, or watch the attack go up the road. For the
    > others it's let George chase, or lose to George if you chase with the big
    > guy on your wheel. Of course, if they thought GH was really toast, they
    > might chase anyway. But circumstances said otherwise.


    It sounds like you are positing that GH is the best climber and the
    best sprinter in that group and OP should have known that,
    while the o.p. of this thread is positing that P was the strongest
    and GH robbed him of his deserved victory with unsportsmanlike
    tactics. I'm agnostic about who was actually strongest overall,
    but it's clear in the event, that if OP's goal was to get the
    stage win at all costs and if he hurt his chances of beating
    GH at the finish by pulling so much, he would have had a
    better shot if he had taken more turns at the back over the
    last 25km so he was fresher at the end to attack successfully.


    >> Pereiro was successful in getting rid of Boogard, Sevilla,
    >> Brochard, and Caucchioli...but Hincapie was also able to do
    >> that while expending less effort. So it was a pretty good
    >> race by Pereiro, but a better one by Hincapie. If Pereiro
    >> had been able to predict that Hincapie was the strongest
    >> or second strongest next to him, then he should have and
    >> probably would have taken Hincapie's wheel for a while.

    >
    > That's the thing, though...GH was probably comfortable with the group
    > arriving together and was unlikely to attack or take a pull.


    But OP would have been fresher for the end if somebody else was
    pulling GH over the last 25Km, so his attacks would have had
    a better chance for success.


    >P. simply had
    > to try to drop GH with accelerations...from the front, unfortunately. But
    > GH was too strong.
    >
    > But I agree with the bottom line. P. did all he could under the
    > circumstances and had to settle for second. Sometimes you just cant win.



    After reading additional material from post-race comments on-line,
    I've learned that the bulk of OPs complaint about Hincapie concerned
    what happened at the very end, after they had dropped the other
    riders, rather than over the last 25Km. Apparently, they had
    verbally agreed to work together to stay out front at that point,
    and then GH didn't do any pulls. GH says that the crowd
    made the road so narrow he couldn't even go around OP at that
    time. Also, OP kept riding harder than he needed to because he
    couldn't hear from his radio that the others were far enough back
    to no longer be a threat.
     
  10. IMKen

    IMKen Guest

    And that might have cost him the first place. George was way cool.

    Ken


    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Pereiro said that he couldn't hear anything from his radio transmitter
    > because of the crowd noise, so he didn't know how far Boogerd was
    > behind, so he felt there was no choice but to hurry up to the finish
    > line.
    >
    > -ilan
    >
     
  11. [email protected] wrote:
    > Pereiro said that he couldn't hear anything from his radio transmitter
    > because of the crowd noise, so he didn't know how far Boogerd was
    > behind, so he felt there was no choice but to hurry up to the finish
    > line.


    That makes sense if Pereiro preferred sprinting it out with
    Hincapie to sprinting it out with Hincapie and strijkijzer
    Boogerd. Otherwise, he could have tried to put Hincapie
    on the front at least once.

    (Admittedly, an uphill sprint is probably the only kind Boogie
    can really sprint in, and maybe he was afraid Boogerd would get
    back on and then attack, but that seems unrealistic.)

    I kind of think Pereiro was riding on the front just to stay
    ahead of the fans, let alone Boogerd. He probably legitimately
    feared that if he pulled off enough to make Hincapie take the lead,
    he'd get knocked over by some klutz.
     
  12. <[email protected]> ha escrito en el mensaje
    news:[email protected]

    > I kind of think Pereiro was riding on the front just to stay
    > ahead of the fans, let alone Boogerd. He probably legitimately
    > feared that if he pulled off enough to make Hincapie take the lead,
    > he'd get knocked over by some klutz.
    >


    Hincapie said that's the reason he didn't take a token pull - fans were too
    close. Then after the barriers it would have been a dumb move.
     
  13. trg

    trg Guest

    Paid George off.
     
  14. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > (Admittedly, an uphill sprint is probably the only kind Boogie
    > can really sprint in, and maybe he was afraid Boogerd would get
    > back on and then attack, but that seems unrealistic.)


    But if Boogerd had won then rbr would have a virtual tour stage winner.
     
  15. steve

    steve Guest

    On 17-Jul-2005, smacked up and reeling, Last2Know <[email protected]>
    blindly formulated
    the following incoherence:

    > It sounds like you are positing that GH is the best climber and the
    > best sprinter in that group and OP should have known that,
    > while the o.p. of this thread is positing that P was the strongest
    > and GH robbed him of his deserved victory with unsportsmanlike
    > tactics.


    Half right. I think GH was the strongest sprinter but not strongest
    climber. That's why he had to be dispensed with on the climb.

    I dont find his tactics unsportsmanlike...that's just cycling.

    > I'm agnostic about who was actually strongest overall,
    > but it's clear in the event, that if OP's goal was to get the
    > stage win at all costs and if he hurt his chances of beating
    > GH at the finish by pulling so much, he would have had a
    > better shot if he had taken more turns at the back over the
    > last 25km so he was fresher at the end to attack successfully.


    No doubt.

    > But OP would have been fresher for the end if somebody else was
    > pulling GH over the last 25Km, so his attacks would have had
    > a better chance for success.


    No argument there.


    > After reading additional material from post-race comments on-line,
    > I've learned that the bulk of OPs complaint about Hincapie concerned
    > what happened at the very end, after they had dropped the other
    > riders, rather than over the last 25Km. Apparently, they had
    > verbally agreed to work together to stay out front at that point,
    > and then GH didn't do any pulls. GH says that the crowd
    > made the road so narrow he couldn't even go around OP at that
    > time.


    Hmmm...that changes the equation a bit as far as the (dis)honorable nature
    Georges tactics. Sucking wheel is part of the sport, but an agreement
    should be honored regardless.

    steve
    --
    "Local firemen improvised."
    Benny Hill
     
  16. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    Geraard Spergen wrote:
    >


    > Then after the barriers it would have been a dumb move.


    Wouldn't have mattered even if he did pull after the barriers. He'd
    still have won.
     
  17. > Reached into his pocketbook of money.

    Lol. This has to be the best thing I've read all day.
     
  18. sonarrat

    sonarrat Guest

    steve wrote:
    > Tough question, I think. The 4 men knew they werent getting caught unless
    > they stopped for a cup of coffee. And George couldnt have cared how many
    > of them were together at the finish so long as he was one of them. So he
    > wouldnt attack, and he wouldnt pull...all he had to do was cover moves. No
    > doubt they all knew George was the strongest sprinter. So how do you deal
    > with him.
    >
    > The classic option is for the three to attack him again and again so that
    > George chases all the attacks...but when the first attack results in a two
    > man sorting that option disappears. So Pereiro could attack repeatedly, but
    > didnt seem to have the power left. If you cant drop George (and he couldnt)
    > what then? Hook him?
    >
    > Looked like he was just trying to take the sprint out of George with
    > tempo...a nearly brain dead option....or were those little accelerations
    > actually quickly covered attacks?
    >
    > When you come down to it, if you dont have the legs, you have no options.


    There's not much he could have done. Hincapie's tactics come up a
    little short against guys like Museeuw and Boonen, but they're a damn
    sight better than most climbers.
     
  19. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > > Reached into his pocketbook of money.

    >
    > Lol. This has to be the best thing I've read all day.



    I was supposed to say _suitcase of money_, not "pocketbook."
     
  20. Tim Mullin

    Tim Mullin Guest

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