taper works

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

steve common said:

Oh, and if you haven't done so already, have a read of Ozzie's stuff
on skyhooks and the like.

Thanks, I've enjoyed and learned from some of Ozzie's writings but
skyhooks don't sound familiar. I'll get right on it.

Yeah - I'll second Steve's recommendation of Ozzie's "mental
conditioning"...

That helped me before and during my first marathon - especially the bits
about relaxing face, shoulders, neck.

Good luck for Sunday!!

Anthony.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And hey, aside from all those other rock solid reasons for my
confidence, here's my ace in the hole: even after a 70 mile week, Doug
didn't tell me I was running too many miles for my talent level.

Nice try to get me into this but now that you baited the hook. I very
seldom look at what people post for weekly mileage and don't feel hurt
but I did not look at yours either. I'll assume the 70 a week did not
hurt you or you would be posting along with Lance-a-lot with tears
allowing ego to usurp talent.

Quoted message said:

(let's see, consulting ye olde "miles vs. marathon finishing time"
chart) he must think I'm capable of 3:08 to 3:17.

No F**king way. I think I already posted that I agreed with Donovan that
3:20 maybe 3:25 is a smarter goal considering your 1/2 times and
inexperience at the distance. Hang in with a 7:40 pace( to keep the
numbers even) through about 18-20 and then see how you feel. If your
physical energy still matches your ego, pick up the pace a little and
give the last 10k a belt.

How many long runs of 20 or more did you do and what was the longest
run?

Quoted message said:

And unlike you, I
respect Doug's experience - who am I to tell him he's wrong?

In this case I would listen to D & D go out at a 3:20 pace. For [censored] a
giggles I'll predict a 3:30 because a 3:25 may be a better goal and
you'll back into 3:30. I hope I'm wrong.....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Until [next week], it's all hot air.

True some hot air has value. 😉

Quoted message said:

Of course. And anyone who's averse to hot air has come to the wrong
place, hasn't she!

At least for a healthy discussion.

-DougF

Quoted message said:

And feel free to continue trying to mess with my head, lance

______

doing no such thing...just pointing out you're speculating founded zero
substance. your expressed theoretical models and all this hypothesizing
lacks any foundation. it's fun to kick around...but it's not connected
w/reality. furthermore it doesn't help that you've never gone sub 4:00
in a marathon or sub 1:30 in a 1/2M....and yes that 3:07 and 3:10 talk
had me ROTFLMAO...and Stumpus' 3:15 cheer is funny too. lastly, it's
going to be 69F on Saturday. If it's 65F at the start on Sunday...3:26
- 3:30 is the best of all outcomes for you. i believe you're going to
"race" for 16 miles. the 59th St. bridge will kick your ass and in
your first mile in Manhattan you'll see you're overwhelmed, your quads
will be shot and at this point your "race" will de-volve into a
"training run". in your mind you will justify it all as okay since
it's your first time in the NYCM. Your time wil be 3:28.

Pendejo, you don't know what it's like, or ever even considered what
it's like to have sun beating on you for hours. There is little to no
shade in this race Pendejo. If the weather is like the last 2
years...squinting & eye fatigue will take it toll on a runner like you.
This is one example of something you never even factored that into
your theoretical models have you Pendejo? You're not even ready for
that real possibility are you? Things like this will de-volve your
race into what you've been doing all Summer..."training".

I think there's a good chance you're going to be psychologically beat
at mile 22 when you see that 3:30 is slipping, you'll further break
down...and you just may come in at 3:35.

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:30:41 GMT, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

along with Lance-a-lot

Lancelots problem was because of nikes. I told him...

Charlie Pendejo said:

Well then I must ask, what can you say about perceived effort and
marathon pace? Can you (or anyone?) vividly describe how an all out,
even paced, good weather marathon pace feels, as opposed to slightly
faster or slower?

Funnily enough, I'm not sure that I know what an all out, even paced
marathon pace feels like cuz I never went just on the wrong side of it :-)

I think my 3:03:23 this spring was much closer than my PB 2:55, but looking
back, a more aggressive strategy this year may have got me 1' or 2' better,
if not the sub 3.

What I try to do during the race is to keep skittering along just under the
point where my breathing pattern changes durably, and which I equate to my
best marathon effort. So every minute or so I'll get a couple of quicker
breathing cycles before falling back to "regular" breathing.

This seems to correspond to the heart rate which the sports medicine lab of
the regional hospital told me was close to the point where my lactate
concentration hit the accelerated upward curve.

It may well be that I'm underselling myself by a touch but not by more than
a minute or two now, unless I could force myself to act in "life
threatening" mode; but for me, that ain't what sport is about.

Quoted message said:

I don't use a HRM and am not sure precisely what feelings correlate
with 87%.

87% may not be your number and even with all the measuring I've done, I'm
not sure what my max is: I used 185 for ages, until I saw 190+ when coming
back off a burned-out period.

I reckon I get such close projections of my marathon times from regular
observations of some physical parameters, but I don't really know if I do
those times simply because I've chosen to believe the parameters I'm
studying, and hence make the corresponding effort in races.

That's one reason why I'm never too enthusiastic about discouraging
seemingly optimistic efforts like you or lance have been looking at.

Quoted message said:

I have a decent feel for half marathon effort, and surely
felt that 7:15/mi (3:10 marathon pace) was notably easier at SI two
weeks ago than an all-out 21k race effort. Certainly could have run
more than 13 7:15 miles, untapered, on a pretty windy day and a course
broadly comparable topographically to NYCM.

First two options I can see are, whatever happens, go out the first two
miles (to get over the big bridge up/down) with the 3:15 guys, to see how
everything is coming together on the day, then:
- if you are on a roll, pick up to 3:10 pace over the following mile and
hold the pace to the end
- if you still don't know, stick with the 3:15 bunch until you get a reason
to re-evaluate.

Either way, remember that holding the same pace will get progressively
harder, and require more and more "focus", if you're near optimal marathon
pace.

Reminder: Negative thoughts of any kind are of no use to you in any
circumstances, except if you are getting injured.

Quoted message said:

Pendejo, wondering what's French for "pendejo"?

Well I didn't look far so I'm not sure if it's "Con" (a variable-geometry
word whose "strength" depends on the country/region/con-text) or "Branleur"
or something otherwise more subtle (which I suspect of you :-)

Literally it's perhaps "poil de cul" or, politely "poil pubien" and given
that moustache, it may be just... sorry :-P

Here's a discussion
http://www.ngcsu.edu/Academic/Arts_Let/LangLit/french/BMann/Resources/Pendejo.htm

Charlie Pendejo said:

At least it seems to be kicking in.

[taper-madness snipped]

General stuff I would recommend, not taking into account the course, the
weather, etc:

1. Don't go out too fast.
2. Don't go out too fast.
3. If you are seriously shooting for 3:15, go out the first few miles with
the 3:20 or 3:25 guys, so you won't go out too fast. Likewise if you're
shooting for 3:10 (go out with 3:15 or 3:20 people). This is so you won't
go out too fast.
4. Don't go out too fast.
5. Make it a very super extra important goal to get to 20 or 21 with a
clear head and with your legs under you, then
6. At 20 or 21, start giving it whatever you've got; make it last until the
end.

Just some advice from an average joe, who - it's been said - flies a mite
too close to the sun. Take all this with an average-sized grain of salt.
Good luck; I'll be thinking about you Sunday.

Karen

--
live! vicariously!

Charlie Pendejo said:

Well then I must ask, what can you say about perceived effort and
marathon pace? Can you (or anyone?) vividly describe how an all out,
even paced, good weather marathon pace feels, as opposed to slightly
faster or slower?

The former (if I can correctly recall how it felt):

1-5 you should feel like screaming "My race is getting ruined!" and
using your elbows to get ahead of all those slow runners.
5-10 you should feel angry with yourself for listening to me.
10-15 you should be saying to yourself "This is no way to run a
marathon,
but at this point I might just as well keep smiling at the
crowds."
15-20 you should still find running almost too easy, as if you were
doing a
sort of "Marathon Light".
20-25 you should be thinking "this isn't worse than I've felt this far
into a training run" and begin to write a draft of your race
report
in your mind.
25-30 you should begin to feel the effort of lifting your knees, but
not
too strongly to stop you from humming "another one bits the
dust".
30-35 you should begin to feel the effort of swinging your arms and you
will
have to remind yourself that a marathon is no picnic.

35-42 whatever you will feel at this point will not be related to pace,

slower pace will feel just as overflowingly full of efforst as a
faster.

Anders

Quoted message said:

go out the first two miles (to get over the big bridge up/down) with the 3:15 guys, to see how

everything is coming together on the day,
______

ok...some reality for the ng. pendejo does not have to "get over, up
and down" anything. it's 1 mile first of all and your words would
apply if he was on top of the bridge. the bridge has 2 levels, Pendejo
is at the bottom and has a _flat_ 1 mile run across the bridge and then
downward. the top is arched, the bottom is not.

Quoted message said:

if you are on a roll, pick up to 3:10 pace over the following mile and hold the pace to the end

well there you have it, the plan is hatched!

steve common said:

What I try to do during the race is to keep skittering along just under the
point where my breathing pattern changes durably, and which I equate to my
best marathon effort. So every minute or so I'll get a couple of quicker
breathing cycles before falling back to "regular" breathing.

This is very much the "smoke detector" that I try to use: the moment I
catch myself falling into what I've come to identify as a "LT run
breathing pattern", I ease up a notch immediately.

Anders (who, too, would urge to go ahead and gun for 3:15)

Quoted message said:

Anders (who, too, would urge to go ahead and gun for 3:15)

___

Anders, Steve, Karen & Stumpus all shouting 3:15.
Donovan, Doug, & Me shouting 3:25-3:30.

Where do all these people live? Draw your own conclusions......

Quoted message said:

Anders, Steve, Karen & Stumpus all shouting 3:15.
Donovan, Doug, & Me shouting 3:25-3:30.

Where do all these people live? Draw your own conclusions......

In a normal place? Unlike you who lives in a filthy, slimy, greasy
city?

lance said:

in your mind you will justify it all as okay since it's your
first time in the NYCM. Your time wil be 3:28.

In my mind I will justify it all as okay since I will have given my
best effort, not just during the race, but all summer and fall training
for it, and these pre-marathon weeks visualizing, strategizing, and
sauna-izing in all this hot air.

As for 3:28, we'll know soon enough - but it's good to know that even
you, in your attempts to mess with my head, predict I'll finish faster
than you did last year. :-)

Quoted message said:

Pendejo, you don't know what it's like, or ever even considered
what it's like to have sun beating on you for hours.

Frankly my dear, I have more recent experience running hours in the hot
sun than you. I've run legit long runs, over two hours and often
2:30-3:00+, at least every other week these last couple summers. One
Sunday afternoon in August this meant 20 miles in 92F heat, for
example.

Quoted message said:

squinting & eye fatigue will take it toll on a runner like you.

Hint, lance: baseball cap or visor, shades. Take it from this relative
novice, they work!

Pendejo, consciously relaxing his eyes, not rolling them

Charlie Pendejo said:

lance said:

in your mind you will justify it all as okay since it's your
first time in the NYCM. Your time wil be 3:28.

In my mind I will justify it all as okay since I will have given my
best effort, not just during the race, but all summer and fall training
for it, and these pre-marathon weeks visualizing, strategizing, and
sauna-izing in all this hot air.

As for 3:28, we'll know soon enough - but it's good to know that even
you, in your attempts to mess with my head, predict I'll finish faster
than you did last year. :-)

Since the betting pool is on--

I'm predicting a 3:20 if it's 60 or cooler at the starting line, and add
1 minute for each degree above 60 if it's warmer.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
........

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

I agree with D that 3:20 is smarter

OK, there's two votes from the "D" section. 3:20 based on _____?

From the official website:
http://www.nycmarathon.org/training/coursepreview.php

"One Tough Course
No marathon is easy, but the ING New York City Marathon can be even tougher
than most because of the course. It's not fast-don't let anyone tell you
otherwise. You need to be realistic with your time goals or you will be
setting yourself up for disappointment. To predict your marathon time, you
would generally take your half-marathon time, multiply by two, and add 10
minutes-assuming comparable courses, weather, and training. For the ING New
York City Marathon, add another five to 10 minutes to your range. For
example, if you ran Grete's Great Gallop Half-Marathon in 1:30, your range
for the ING New York City Marathon would be 3:10 to 3:20. "

Download the elevation chart. Those hills are nothing to trifle with if
going for time. I seem to remember someone last year talking about a course
specific pace chart, based on the elevations. That might be worth finding.

I'm not a marathoner, but I had a goal race that I'd never raced before this
year (the escarpment trail run), and I chose to take the advice to go out
very conservatively. As it turned out, I probably could have gone faster,
but I enjoyed speeding up as I went, and passing people. Next year I can try
to run it faster, knowing how the course runs better, but will follow a
similar strategy. You should probably do the same. If you have enough left
to smoke the last 6 miles, then you can beef about it.

-Tony

Tony S. said:

Download the elevation chart. Those hills are nothing to trifle with if
going for time. I seem to remember someone last year talking about a course
specific pace chart, based on the elevations. That might be worth finding.

nikerunning.com

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

joe positive said:

Just some advice from an average joe

Thanks Karen. As my marathon hero, who else need I even listen to?

Except of course Stumpus and common and Lustig - can't miss their
combinations of fine writing, solid experience, and insight.

And the Doug and Donovan father-and-son wisdom-and-speed
grumpy-and-arrogant act.

And Twitty, who has provided a terrific word-image-soundtrack to this
thread - thanks Twitty!

And naturally lance and that TBR creep, because what court is complete
without two jesters?

And Anthony - thanks Anthony for the well-wishes! - who I don't know
well enough to pigeonhole in good conscience at the moment.

But clearly, I'm listening first and foremost to Karen, who, if I read
between the lines, just said "Charlie, I've no doubt you can run a 3:15
next Sunday". Thanks Karen! You are easily my favorite Floridian!

Pendejo, liable to collapse mid-Verrazano in a seizure of epic
silliness if he gets any goofier

Quoted message said:

As for 3:28, we'll know soon enough - but it's good to know that even

you, in your attempts to mess with my head, predict I'll finish faster
than you did last year. :-)
___

yeah but you won't run faster than the NYCM wherein i wore shoes for
the whole race.....

Quoted message said:

I'm predicting a 3:20 if it's 60 or cooler at the starting line, and add 1 minute for each degree above 60 if it's warmer.

___

that would be 2 x 1/2M + 16. care to support how you derive this
number? i made my case for him going 3:28...how do you have him at
your number?

in my first NYCM I did 2 x 1/2M + 17 (coming off Grete's 1/2M of
1:30:30) (of course my longerst training run was 9 miles and that hurt
me). his long runs just might payoff for himself.

FYI:
NOAA has for Sunday: Partly cloudy, with a high around 64. that means
it should be about 58F or so at the start of the race...

[quote="Charlie Pendejo"]At least it seems to be kicking in.

[a] I'm already getting noticeably nuttier after just a week with no
doubles, two days off, and after tomorrow somewhere near 60% my avg
weekly mileage. This also follows two 50 mile weeks, low side of
normal - I've fluctuated from about 50 to 70 and generally followed a
lower mileage week with a higher.

[b] I also seem to maybe be getting faster with the decreased workload.
Ran some "tempo intervals" at the park today: 4:00 MP to tempo effort
by feel, 1:00 jog recovery. I believe (not super precise - I've only
got an overall time and park loop distance so I must estimate recovery
jog pace [9:00] to solve for the faster pace) the faster bits averaged
about 6:50/mile, which is 20-25 seconds faster than similar effort felt
just a few weeks ago.

Wow, if a week of even lower mileage has me just about jumping out of
my skin and running faster easier, it's going to take a lot of
discipline to hold back those first couple miles and even the first
half of the course! Anyone find this difficult? What has helped?

I'm flirting with the idea of running with the 3:15 pace group, at
least for 13 or 16 or 18 miles. Some weeks/months ago I thought I
might aim for more like 3:10 - and in fact ran the last 11 miles of
Staten Island 21k two weeks ago at that pace, around 7:15. Felt like I
finished with a lot left in the tank, sped up to run mile 13 in 6:41
after averaging 7:06 over the preceding 4.

OTOH my 21k PB is 1:32 (same in 2004 & 05), and the rule of thumb
"double 21k + 10:00" = 3:14, and NYCM *is* a somewhat slower course
than some... all of which argues against 3:10. But neither can I
believe I'll need 3:24 (2 x 21k + 20:00). No way, barring horrible
weather, excessive stoopidity, or something unforseen. So my thinking
is, maybe I stick to 3:15 pace for say 16-18 miles, then decide whether
to accelerate, hold steady, slow up, or DNF.

And it appears running with the pace group may yield the additional
bonus of a more assured starting spot relatively up front. I'd just as
soon not stand outside in the cold for hours longer than needed to
protect my starting spot, nor elbow my way much forward from my
legitimate place, which seems neither fair nor prudent if I get swept
up by people running much faster. If I can simply join the group
standing under a 3:15 balloon, and they're about where they should be
relative to the other runners, that itself seems like a coup.

Pendejo, destined to become even less bearable these next seven days
[/quote]

I'm late to the party but I don't see anything about prior Marathon
times. Is this your first?
I'll make my prediction after I verfiy that.
The killer for me was 1st Ave., no clouds and not a bit of shade to be
found. That's where dehydration set in. I missed the mile marks for 18
and 19.

I'm thinking about the After The Leaves Have Fallen 20k in the "Gunks"
on Sunday.

lance said:

yeah but you won't run faster than the NYCM wherein i wore shoes for
the whole race.....

Abebe, my habibi, I see Rome throws a 42k in the spring - last weekend
in March. Surely shoes are still optional.

Whaddya say? Wanna run it?

I think we could count on a decent pre-race pasta party and good wine
afterward.

Pendejo, with frequent flier miles just waiting to be cashed in