target weights for cyclist-specific weight training

[Kitchen]

Various cyclist training programs include weight lifting, and most of them talk about how to
determine the amount of weight to be lifted initially.

But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll need?

I realize there are some variables here, but it would be great if there were a percentage-of-body-
weight rough estimation of what riders should eventually be lifting for some key exercises like:
squat (free weight) hamstring curl calf raise shallow leg press deadlift situp back extension bench
press seat row

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, kitchen
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Various cyclist training programs include weight lifting, and most of them talk about how to
> determine the amount of weight to be lifted initially.
>
> But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
> perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
> continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll need?
>
> I realize there are some variables here, but it would be great if there were a percentage-of-body-
> weight rough estimation of what riders should eventually be lifting for some key exercises like:
> squat (free weight)

I've seen guys who could squat from 200-400 lbs and there was virtually no correlation between their
squat weight and speed on the bike. I've seen big guys who couldn't break 13.0 in the 200mTT.

Length of your limbs (levers) has a profound effect on your ability in the weight room. If you can
squat 150% of your BW you should probably get on your bike to figure out how to turn that into
speed. And isn't that more important anyway?

-WG

 

[Robert Chung]

kitchen wrote:
> Various cyclist training programs include weight lifting, and most of them talk about how to
> determine the amount of weight to be lifted initially.
>
> But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
> perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
> continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll need?

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/quadrant_analysis/
http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/misc/id4.html

 

[Andy Coggan]

"kitchen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Various cyclist training programs include weight lifting, and most of them talk about how to
> determine the amount of weight to be lifted initially.
>
> But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
> perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
> continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll
need?

AFAIK, Joe Friel is the only coach who has put forth guidelines like those you are seeking - see
his 'Bible'.

Me, I would say that if you're strong enough to actually climb onto your bike, that's probably
strong enough. ;-)

Andy Coggan

 

[Donald Munro]

kitchen wrote:
>> But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
>> perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
>> continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll
> need?

Andy Coggan wrote:
> Me, I would say that if you're strong enough to actually climb onto your bike, that's probably
> strong enough. ;-)

I can bench press a mountain bike !

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Andy
Coggan <[email protected]> wrote:

> Me, I would say that if you're strong enough to actually climb onto your bike, that's probably
> strong enough. ;-)

But after a hard session of squats he may not be able to climb onto his bike. Is that overtraining?

-WG

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by Andy Coggan
"kitchen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Various cyclist training programs include weight lifting, and most of them talk about how to
> determine the amount of weight to be lifted initially.
>
> But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
> perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
> continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll
need?

AFAIK, Joe Friel is the only coach who has put forth guidelines like those you are seeking - see
his 'Bible'.

Me, I would say that if you're strong enough to actually climb onto your bike, that's probably
strong enough. ;-)

Andy Coggan

And, if you're not strong enough to climb on your bike, i wouldn't be worried about cycling...

Ric

 

[Top Sirloin]

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:00:28 -0600, "kitchen" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Various cyclist training programs include weight lifting, and most of them talk about how to
>determine the amount of weight to be lifted initially.
>
>But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
>perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
>continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll need?
>
>I realize there are some variables here, but it would be great if there were a percentage-of-body-
>weight rough estimation of what riders should eventually be lifting for some key exercises like:
>squat (free weight) hamstring curl calf raise shallow leg press deadlift situp back extension bench
>press seat row

If I were a competitive cyclist I'd drop everything but the squats, the situps, and the back
extensions.

Don't worry about weight - focus on handling what you can in good form and add weight when you can.
Cycle off the lifting not because you're strong but because you need to drop your training load.

As as pointed out earlier this year in here, what you want to do is build muscle you can then train
for cycling, but only if a lack of strength is one of your weaknesses. When you train for strength
in the weightroom, especially if you're a endurance athlete barely running a caloric surplus, most
of the adaption will be neural which won't translate to squat <grin> on the bike.

An excellent hypertrophy training program can be found at:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

If you have enough strength to go fast as you want, you don't need to lift unless you enjoy it or
have some other issue (like low back pain) that it can help you with.

--

Scott Johnson "be a man ,stop looking for handouts , eat ,lift and shut your mouth" -John Carlo

 

[Peter Allen]

"kitchen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Various cyclist training programs include weight lifting, and most of them talk about how to
> determine the amount of weight to be lifted initially.
>
> But has anyone seen any guidelines on setting a "target weight load" for cyclists on these exercises--
> perhaps based on body weight? For instance, if I'm squatting 150% of my body weight, do I need to
> continue to build on that or have I already built more strength there than I'll
need?

You'll only ever use that strength in a start (and perhaps if you sprint from a low speed), so you
could argue you didn't need that much strength. On the other hand, I find I ride better if I'm never
anywhere near my strength limits.

> I realize there are some variables here, but it would be great if there
were
> a percentage-of-body-weight rough estimation of what riders should eventually be lifting for some
> key exercises like: squat (free weight)

150% is loads.

> hamstring curl

100% would be good, but do you really need that much strength?

> calf raise

Don't bother.

> shallow leg press

Depending on what you mean by shallow, about 2-300%.

> deadlift

150%, assuming you're doing real DL not SLDL.

> situp

You probably ought to do some since they're usually good for long-term health, but you don't really
need them.

> back extension

Ditto. And don't try to go for maxes, you'll damage yourself.

> bench press seat row

You're not using those muscles (unless you yank yourself off the handlebars or dislocate your
shoulders when you push the pedals!) so don't bother. They'll only make you heavier.

IMO, you only really want to do deadlift and leg press for cycling, plus situps / other abs
exercise, back extensions for general health. And you don't really need DL too much unless you're
doing a lot of sprinting out of the saddle up hills.

Peter

 

[Kitchen]

> AFAIK, Joe Friel is the only coach who has put forth guidelines like those you are seeking - see
> his 'Bible'.

Happen to know what those are? I don't have the book.

> Me, I would say that if you're strong enough to actually climb onto your bike, that's probably
> strong enough. ;-)

Thanks. I promise not to put too much faith in weight lifting. ;-) I've been racing for a couple
years, and I do put in many thousands of miles on the road each year, but I've just noticed that my
endurance lasts a little longer on climbs when I've been tuning up in the weight room (especially
short climbs). So I wondered if any coach had guidelines on "how much would help".

 

[Bob Thomas]

A good question, and one that even good coaches rarely agree with each other. Here is some general info regarding squats and leg presses.

a. Absolutely start at a weight that your whole body can handle.

b. Work up gradually such that you ensure not hurting the back or any other part of the body.

c. Keep moving up as long as the whole body can handle the weight, doing high reps (30 or more), about 3 sets.

d. Given that you don't damage your body, there is no such thing as getting too strong, given that we're talking high reps, and multiple sets.

e. Continue getting stronger until the season will not let you lift anymore. Some good cyclists will continue lifting on Tuesday mornings, just to hold onto the strength as far into the season as possible. One thing you will learn is that no matter how hard you train and how many miles you ride, there is no way you'll be as strong at the end of October as you were when you started racing in March. So, weight lift as far into the season as is practicable.

Whether you're talking sprinting, uphill sprinting, or climbing. the stronger you are, the better. However, during weight lifting season, make sure that you are also riding the bike and doing other bike specific training that also builds pedaling specific muscles.

When I was in the Marine Corps, I went in able to about 50-60 pushups. After doing 10,000 a day for about 5 weeks I could pump 100 without even slowing down. It's no different on the bike. If you are very strong, that is very good, because you can call on all the muscle and sprint the hill better than anyone, or you can use a small part of it and have your leg muscles coasting while they are sucking up all the oxygen your lungs can produce. These are my thoughts. Stronger is better!

 

[Andy Coggan]

"kitchen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > AFAIK, Joe Friel is the only coach who has put forth guidelines like
those
> > you are seeking - see his 'Bible'.
>
> Happen to know what those are? I don't have the book.

Sorry, I don't have it either. I do know, though, that Friel's recommendations re. weight training
have changed since publication of the original book - "Going Long" by Friel and Bryne supposedly has
the most recent guidelines.

> > Me, I would say that if you're strong enough to actually climb onto your bike, that's probably
> > strong enough. ;-)
>
> Thanks. I promise not to put too much faith in weight lifting. ;-) I've been racing for a couple
> years, and I do put in many thousands of miles on the road each year, but I've just noticed that
> my endurance lasts a little longer on climbs when I've been tuning up in the weight room
> (especially short climbs).

Question: how often do you do very high intensity intervals 0.5-3 min in duration with complete
recovery between efforts?

Andy Coggan