Tavistock 7/12/06



W

Will Cove

Guest
I'm posting this in the hope the cyclist concerned is a member of this
group, can objectively look at my report of his actions, and can avoid
making the same mistakes. He might not even know how close he came to
wiping out big-time. This isn't destructive critisism - I'm just trying
to highlight how dangerous his actions were in the hope that he and
anyone else who has this style of riding might see the problem and
correct their ways before they become another statistic.

The cyclist concerned was riding on the A386 Plymouth Road from Morrisons
roundabout to Drake's Statue (junction with the A390) some time between
4:30 pm and 5:00 pm last night (7/12). He was dressing in dark clothing,
had no lights, and had a not very effective, taller than wide, rear
reflector. I first caught sight of him because his bare calves stood out
slightly in my headlights. If this is you, you managed to put yourself in
serious danger at least three times in about half a mile. For reference,
I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell bent on hitting.

The mini roundabout after Morrisons is offset massively to the left. As I
was decelerating for that roundabout, you passed me on the left and then
took the shortest route - i.e. went the wrong way round the roundabout.
In doing that, you cut straight across the front of my car just as I was
entering the roundabout. Be grateful that I check my nearside mirror
before entering a roundabout, because you'd probably been under my wheels
if I hadn't.

Just in case you didn't see it, I'll point out that when you rode the
wrong way round that roundabout, there was a car coming in the other
direction that had to take avoiding action and that when you left the
roundabout, you cut across the front of the car two in front of me, who
also had to brake sharply to avoid you.

I overtook you shortly after that but kept a close watch on you until you
disappeared from sight. I suspected that you'd turned off the A386. As I
approached the road on the left a little before the the river, there was
a Jag on the other side of the A386 waiting to turn right. Since he was
holding up a long queue of traffic in his direction and since there was a
continuous stream of traffic in my direction, I intended doing the
courteous thing and slowed down to open a gap in front of me. My next
action would have been to flash my headlights - except at that point you
moved out of my nearside blind spot (where you'd been tailgating me) and
started to pass me on the left. I accelerated away and in doing so might
have saved your life. Let me project what might have happened if I hadn't
checked my nearside mirror at that point and had not seen you:

I'd have flashed the Jag, who would have passed in front of me. At that
stage he couldn't see you and you couldn't see him because my car was in
the way. The driver probably wouldn't have seen you at all because from
his perspective the road was clear and his attention would have been on
the road into which he was turning. Judging by the cavalier manner in
which you handled the roundabout, I suspect that you wouldn't have been
able to stop. If you were lucky the Jag would have gone far enough for
you to run into his wing because otherwise you'd have gone under it.

If that was you, please get yourself some lights. Don't overtake at the
approach to junctions (Highway Code, rule 143). While you're at it,
please get yourself a copy of the Highway Code (or visit
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/) and read it.
 
"Will Cove" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm posting this in the hope the cyclist concerned is a member of this
> group


Dirty, stinking POBs don't post here!
 
Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote in news:MPG.1fe36a4a1bc3c5a98a932
@news.individual.net:

>> I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell bent on hitting.
>>

> Oh look, a tractor driver.


I also drive a white van and use the 4x4 to tow a caravan - so want to
enlighten us with even more of your bigotry?
 
On 08 Dec 2006 09:12:43 GMT
Will Cove <[email protected]> wrote:


> The cyclist concerned was riding on the A386 Plymouth Road from
> Morrisons roundabout to Drake's Statue (junction with the A390) some
> time between 4:30 pm and 5:00 pm last night (7/12).


I was actually up on Whitchurch Down (without the bike) around
that time last night - a little over a mile away. So obviously
I didn't see it.

But knowing that road well, it's entirely possible that your account
is a spin on something that could alternatively be spun as
"was passing the usual line of stationary motons, ready as always
to take quick evasive action if one of them started to move".

--
not me guv
 
In news:[email protected],
Will Cove <[email protected]> typed:

> My next action would have been to flash my
> headlights - except at that point you moved out of my nearside blind
> spot (where you'd been tailgating me) and started to pass me on the
> left. I accelerated away and in doing so might have saved your life.
> Let me project what might have happened if I hadn't checked my
> nearside mirror at that point and had not seen you:
>
> I'd have flashed the Jag, who would have passed in front of me. At
> that stage he couldn't see you and you couldn't see him because my
> car was in the way. The driver probably wouldn't have seen you at all
> because from his perspective the road was clear and his attention
> would have been on the road into which he was turning.



> If that was you, please get yourself some lights. Don't overtake at
> the approach to junctions (Highway Code, rule 143). While you're at
> it, please get yourself a copy of the Highway Code (or visit
> http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/) and read it.



But why would you yourself not be acting in accordance with Highway
Code, rule 90 - which tells you only to flash your headlights to let
other road users know you are there.

Why also do you presume that the driver of the Jag would not have read
and be acting upon Highway Code, rule 91 - which says that if another
driver flashes his headlights, he should not assume that it is a signal
to go and that he should use his own judgemant and proceed carefully.




--
Bob
 
Will Cove wrote in news:[email protected]:

> I'm posting this in the hope the cyclist concerned is a member of this
> group


I doubt an unlit POB would be a member of this group. Its mostly cake-
munching, badger-counting CTC types.

Hey, hows about posting a ride report? I'm sure someone could lend you a
bike.
 
Nick Kew <[email protected]> wrote in news:l64o44-mfu.ln1
@grimnir.webthing.com:

> But knowing that road well, it's entirely possible that your account
> is a spin on something that could alternatively be spun as
> "was passing the usual line of stationary motons, ready as always
> to take quick evasive action if one of them started to move".


Not with the traffic moving at ten to twenty mph!
 
Will Cove wrote:
>


A load of bilge because he couldn't shake a cyclist in traffic.

There there.
 
On 08 Dec 2006 09:12:43 GMT, Will Cove <[email protected]> wrote:

>My next
>action would have been to flash my headlights


The one and only time I've been knocked off my bike was when I was
cycling in a shared use cycle/bus lane. Some fool in the parrallel
lane flased a car waiting to turn right, and without looking the car
crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear of my bike.

If you think flashing a car for any reason, other than to make them
you aware of your presence, is right, you need to study the highway
code.
 
Will Cove <[email protected]> writes:

> For reference, I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell
> bent on hitting.


*snip*

> My next action would have been to flash my headlights


Did you need to tell the oncoming driver that you were there? If not,
you were driving contrary to the Highway Code points 90 and 91.

> - except at that point you moved out of my nearside blind spot
> (where you'd been tailgating me) and started to pass me on the
> left. I accelerated away and in doing so might have saved your life.


Have you considered that if you weren't driving a 4x4 or people
carrier, the cyclist would have been visible behind you to the
oncoming driver and vice versa, and that others would also have a
better view of the road, not one partially obscured by your choice of
vehicle?

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
 
Will Cove <[email protected]> writes:

> Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote in news:MPG.1fe36a4a1bc3c5a98a932
> @news.individual.net:
>
>>> I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell bent on
>>> hitting.

>>
>> Oh look, a tractor driver.

>
> I also drive a white van and use the 4x4 to tow a caravan - so want
> to enlighten us with even more of your bigotry?


Yes, a 4x4 is necessary to tow a caravan, been that way for many
years. All HGVs are all-wheel-drive too because it's just not
possible to tow something any other way.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
 
Will Cove <[email protected]> writes:

> Nick Kew <[email protected]> wrote in news:l64o44-mfu.ln1
> @grimnir.webthing.com:
>
>> But knowing that road well, it's entirely possible that your
>> account is a spin on something that could alternatively be spun as
>> "was passing the usual line of stationary motons, ready as always
>> to take quick evasive action if one of them started to move".

>
> Not with the traffic moving at ten to twenty mph!


Do you have *any* idea how fast it is possible to go on a bike? Even
a fat unfit oaf like me can more than outpace your average traffic
queue much to the displeasure of those in their expensive metal boxes.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
 
Tom Crispin <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> The one and only time I've been knocked off my bike was when I was
> cycling in a shared use cycle/bus lane. Some fool in the parrallel
> lane flased a car waiting to turn right, and without looking the car
> crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear of my bike.


Then don't overtake on the approach to junctions. Ride defensively and
try to anticipate what other road users are going to do. Unless I've
misread your words, the "fool"'s conduct meant that two things were most
likely. Either the "fool" was about to turn left across your path, or he
was giving way to let someone cross in front of him. In either case, a
crunch would be likely if you cycled beyond the guy in the parallel lane.
AFAICT, your risk management failed. Irrespective of who was technically
at fault, you could have avoided the accident.

>
> If you think flashing a car for any reason, other than to make them
> you aware of your presence, is right, you need to study the highway
> code.


Rules 90 and 91 of the HC are advisory only and haven't agreed with what
happens on the ground for decades. In daylight, I beckon other drivers to
invite them to proceed - but that doesn't work at night. While it's not
wise to flash your headlights where that could be misunderstood the case
where one vehicle indicates to turn right and an oncoming vehicles slows
down and then gives a quick flash is rarely one of them. There are often
instances where one vehicle is causing an obstruction and letting that
vehicle go gets the traffic moving again with little or no cost to
yourself. Helping others in such situations is a part of something called
"courtesy" (aka "consideration").

That said, it doesn't matter how good or bad my driving is. My actions in
this case are commonplace and predictable. Even if my driving is ****, I
didn't collide with that guy and managed to neutralise his actions on at
least two occasions despite his best efforts.

Now, I didn't post to have a go at the guy, I posted because I want him
to understand what could have happened if things had been slightly
different so that he can take stock and hopefully keep safe. He looked
like a serious cyclist. His bike looked a lot more expensive than either
of mine and bare calves/lycra shorts often indicate someone who does a
lot of cycling - and who thus might be a member of this group.
 
"Will Cove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Now, I didn't post to have a go at the guy, I posted because I want him
> to understand what could have happened if things had been slightly
> different so that he can take stock and hopefully keep safe. He looked
> like a serious cyclist. His bike looked a lot more expensive than either
> of mine and bare calves/lycra shorts often indicate someone who does a
> lot of cycling - and who thus might be a member of this group.


In which case, it's even more important that you don't **** about letting
people across without knowing who's about. It's really obvious that you
completely underestimated the speed of this rider - the expensive bike and
bare calves/lycra should be a clue that he's likely to be quite quick, and
thus quite likely to be somewhere near you.

Like I said to "adder" recently in another place, I'm not in a position to
have a go at the rider for not using lights etc. But I can try and encourage
you to think a little more about other road users.

FWIW I'd guess that if you had flashed the guy, the rider would have noticed
and taken appropriate avoiding action. We already know he's taking junctions
somewhat yobbily - IME that's normally accompanied with something of a clue
about how to get out of problems, if only because he needs that skill to get
out of situations he'll put himself in on a regular basis.

(on a different note the car driver who flashed the lorry out when I was
coming down the hill the other way at the speed limit didn't understand why
I had a go at him. He didn't get why he should have checked before doing
what he did. Fortunately the lorry driver did have his eyes open, so ignored
the guy.)

clive
 
Chris Eilbeck wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Did you need to tell the oncoming driver that you were there? If not,
> you were driving contrary to the Highway Code points 90 and 91.


Yebbut if people flashed their lights to say "I'm about to proceed" (or
whatever the highway code says) then it just causes misunderstanding.

An Iranian friend kept having peds walk out in front of him before he
learnt that flashing headlights has a different meaning.

The Highway codes version does make more sense, and it prolly is a good
idea to change current 'on street' practice, but it seems silly for the HC
to lie about the meaning.
 
On 08 Dec 2006 18:37:58 GMT, Will Cove <[email protected]> wrote:

>> The one and only time I've been knocked off my bike was when I was
>> cycling in a shared use cycle/bus lane. Some fool in the parrallel
>> lane flased a car waiting to turn right, and without looking the car
>> crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear of my bike.

>
>Then don't overtake on the approach to junctions. Ride defensively and
>try to anticipate what other road users are going to do. Unless I've
>misread your words, the "fool"'s conduct meant that two things were most
>likely. Either the "fool" was about to turn left across your path, or he
>was giving way to let someone cross in front of him. In either case, a
>crunch would be likely if you cycled beyond the guy in the parallel lane.
>AFAICT, your risk management failed. Irrespective of who was technically
>at fault, you could have avoided the accident.


Recall that the car turning right hit the rear of my bike - not the
side or front. In other words, I was virtually across the box
junction when I was struck.

The driver of the vehicle which hit me hadn't looked. If she had,
she'd have seen me ahead.

The driver of the vehicle should not have flashed. It may have
distracted the driver who hit me, and given her the impression that it
was safe to proceed.

I had looked. I looked at the driver in the car waiting to turn
right, and was surprised when I saw the flash reflected on the side of
her car. I could not believe it when she started to turn while I was
in front of her. I was even more shocked when she continued forward
and struck me.

It all happened some years ago. If I knew then what I know now about
safe cycling techniques and the perils of cycle/bus lanes I may indeed
not have suffered a buckled wheel. Even so, the fault was not mine.
The driver was the one not looking, and she was entirely to blame for
the assault.
 
>> Some fool in the parrallel lane flased a car waiting to turn right,
>> and without looking the car crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear
>> of my bike.

>
> Ride defensively and
> try to anticipate what other road users are going to do.<snippity>
> AFAICT, your risk management failed. Irrespective of who was
> technically at fault, you could have avoided the accident.


Same thing happened to me. Fortunately I had the brakes covered and hit
the car at about 0.25mph. Still, if the driver hadn't seen me coming and
slammed on the brakes, blocking the entire lane, I'd have made it round the
back. A good learning experience thobut, and one thats kept me alive
since. I just keep telling myself that all the braking-for-nothing and
subsequent acceleration to cruising speed is good training.
 
Mark Thompson said the following on 08/12/2006 21:26:

> Yebbut if people flashed their lights to say "I'm about to proceed" (or
> whatever the highway code says) then it just causes misunderstanding.


Unfortunately this is one of those cases where what happens in real life
is dangerously opposite to what the HC says. Yes, a flash of the
headlights can cause misunderstanding, but 95% or more of drivers know
what the flasher (pardon the phrase!) intends, or what they think the
flasher means.

In real life, each individual situation has to be taken in context.
Flashing someone to turn right across you when you're in a slow-moving
queue of traffic ("I'm letting you go") is completely different to
flashing someone who is about to pull out in front of you as you're
driving along a main road ("Are you aware of me coming towards you?").
The former is one of the unwritten rules of driving in the UK and all
cyclists must surely be aware of the possibility of being cut across in
that situation, whilst the latter is one of the written rules, and is
dangerous because the warning can be incorrectly taken as "I'm letting
you out."

I wonder how many people here have flashed their headlights with the HC
definition in mind, but kept in mind whilst doing so that their actions
are likely to be taken as meaning the exact opposite?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
Paul Boyd wrote on 09/12/2006 07:53 +0100:
>
> Unfortunately this is one of those cases where what happens in real life
> is dangerously opposite to what the HC says. Yes, a flash of the
> headlights can cause misunderstanding, but 95% or more of drivers know
> what the flasher (pardon the phrase!) intends, or what they think the
> flasher means.
>


I was always taught that flashing the headlights had no meaning and that
it was still my responsibility to check the road and ensure it was safe
to proceed irrespective of what another driver might be attempting to
indicate to me with his headlights.

--
Tony

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