taxonomy of shimano equipment?



N

Nobody Important

Guest
I'm in the market for a new hybrid bike but I haven't bought a bike in
many years. In trying to compare bikes from different manufacturers,
I'm trying to classify the gear in terms of highend, value, budget etc,
but the Shimano website is not very helpful in this regard (indeed, I
think it's specifically engineered to prevent this kind of comparison).

Anyone know of a web page that gives this type of information in a frank
manner?
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Nobody Important <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm in the market for a new hybrid bike but I haven't bought a bike in
> many years. In trying to compare bikes from different manufacturers,
> I'm trying to classify the gear in terms of highend, value, budget etc,
> but the Shimano website is not very helpful in this regard (indeed, I
> think it's specifically engineered to prevent this kind of comparison).
>
> Anyone know of a web page that gives this type of information in a frank
> manner?


What is your intended purpose?

Coffee shop and some errands.

Bicycle paths on Sunday.

Light touring.

Longish local rides, and extending to longer.

Exercise.

Return to the bicycling joys of earlier years.

Join a local club for rides.

How much previous experience do you have.

--
Michael Press
 
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:55:58 -0400, Nobody Important
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm in the market for a new hybrid bike but I haven't bought a bike in
>many years. In trying to compare bikes from different manufacturers,
>I'm trying to classify the gear in terms of highend, value, budget etc,
>but the Shimano website is not very helpful in this regard (indeed, I
>think it's specifically engineered to prevent this kind of comparison).
>
>Anyone know of a web page that gives this type of information in a frank
>manner?


As you go down the column from top to bottom on the US Shimano website
pages for road, mountain and comfort lines, you descend in price as
well. Price is an indicator of quality with Shimano in most cases,
but among the top two or three brand designations in the road and
mountain categories, the differences start to get much more esoteric
than the average hybrid rider needs to be concerned about. My
personal ballpark method of estimating quality on the fly when looking
at a bike is centered around a few quickly-examined indicators.
First, if the clamp that mounts the front der to the seat tube is
stamped instead of cast, the der and the rest of the stuff on the bike
is probably low-quality, and is likely to be annoying. Second, if the
bike has grip-shifters, I count that as a negative indicator, in part
for personal reasons. If the bike has less than 8 sprockets in the
rear, it's probably equipped with a freewheel instead of a cassette;
this is another indicator of low quality overall. If it has *exactly*
8 sprockets in the rear, and it's not a major bike-store-brand bike
(particularly if it's any brand sold by a department store or the
equivalent), it becomes necessary to look closely enough to verify
that the rear wheel uses a cassette and not a freewheel. The presence
of an 8 speed freewheel is a sign of cost-cutting; the unsupported
length of the axle on the right side of such a rear wheel is a known
problem that leads to axle breakage.

Be aware that many low-end makers gleefully mark the bikes "Shimano
Equipped" when only one or two items in the drivetrain, shifting or
brake systems are from that company.

An honest bike shop will be candid with you about the real relative
value of the various Shimano lines. In the midrange stuff, there's
really not a lot of difference in how well they work in my experience.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
Nobody Important wrote:
> I'm in the market for a new hybrid bike but I haven't bought a bike in
> many years. In trying to compare bikes from different manufacturers,
> I'm trying to classify the gear in terms of highend, value, budget etc,
> but the Shimano website is not very helpful in this regard (indeed, I
> think it's specifically engineered to prevent this kind of comparison).
>
> Anyone know of a web page that gives this type of information in a frank
> manner?


Have you looked at the Shimano Europe site
( http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en.html )
??? I find that it is much clearer than the U.S. site.

When comparing parts, it's helpful to find the Shimano designation for
it. For instance, front hubs always have a "HB-xxxx" style designation.
Deore LX is HB-M580, Ultegra is HB-6600, Nexave C500 is HB-C501. The
first number that appears indicates *roughly* where the part stands in
Shimano's hierarchy. Of those three, the Deore LX and the Nexave are of
similar standing since they have a "5". The Ultegra is one step up
since it's a "6". Dura-Ace and Deore XT are kind of equal since they're
both "7", while XTR is alone at the top since it's a "9".

This *used* to be reliable. Now there's a variety of special-purpose
parts for downhill and comfort bikes that seem to have been wedged in
whereever they'll fit. But it's still a good *general* guide.

Jeff
 
Nobody Important wrote:
> I'm in the market for a new hybrid bike but I haven't bought a bike in
> many years. In trying to compare bikes from different manufacturers,
> I'm trying to classify the gear in terms of highend, value, budget etc,
> but the Shimano website is not very helpful in this regard (indeed, I
> think it's specifically engineered to prevent this kind of comparison).
>
> Anyone know of a web page that gives this type of information in a frank
> manner?


It's not too hard to find their basic hierarchy - their site lists that
and says what the claimed differences are. Figuring out what's really
the best value for the money is a different story, and there's few or
no sites that really explore the nuances of this well. A good place to
start would be saying what your intended usage is, what your budget is,
where your budget could go if it made enough of a difference, etc.

The Jamis Coda and Coda Sport are two really, really well specced and
priced hybrids at their price levels. There are things I would change
but I don't think it gets much better among current production bikes.
 
Nobody Important wrote:
> I'm in the market for a new hybrid bike but I haven't bought a bike in
> many years. In trying to compare bikes from different manufacturers,
> I'm trying to classify the gear in terms of highend, value, budget etc,
> but the Shimano website is not very helpful in this regard (indeed, I
> think it's specifically engineered to prevent this kind of comparison).
>
> Anyone know of a web page that gives this type of information in a frank
> manner?


It's not too hard to find their basic hierarchy - their site lists that
and says what the claimed differences are. Figuring out what's really
the best value for the money is a different story, and there's few or
no sites that really explore the nuances of this well. A good place to
start would be saying what your intended usage is, what your budget is,
where your budget could go if it made enough of a difference, etc.

The Jamis Coda and Coda Sport are two really, really well specced and
priced hybrids at their price levels. There are things I would change
but I don't think it gets much better among current production bikes.
 
JeffWills <[email protected]> wrote:
> When comparing parts, it's helpful to find the Shimano designation
> for it. For instance, front hubs always have a "HB-xxxx" style
> designation. Deore LX is HB-M580, Ultegra is HB-6600, Nexave C500
> is HB-C501. The first number that appears indicates *roughly*
> where the part stands in Shimano's hierarchy. Of those three, the
> Deore LX and the Nexave are of similar standing since they have a
> "5". The Ultegra is one step up since it's a "6". Dura-Ace and
> Deore XT are kind of equal since they're both "7", while XTR is
> alone at the top since it's a "9".


You're off by one, so to day 8)

XTR is top of the line MTB and DuraAce top of the line Road, both
tend to feature new developments first...

MTB : XTR - XT - LX - Deore - Alivio - others
Road: DuraAce - Ultegra - 105 - Tiagra - Sora - others

There are some 'ungrouped' parts in the Road line, line flatbar
shifters and the compact crank.

Then there's Nexave and other 'comfort' components, including the
IMO technical overweight Smover design.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer
 
JeffWills wrote:
> Have you looked at the Shimano Europe site


Nope, I'm in Canada so I gravitated toward the US site. I'll be sure to
check the EU site out.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, Werehatrack and Jeff. It was a
little intimidating for this newbie to find that there are like 7 types
of sprocket sold by a single company! To this engineer, it seems
logical to have one low-weight model and one strong model - the others
just look like marketing to me.
 
Nobody Important <[email protected]> wrote:

> JeffWills wrote:
> > Have you looked at the Shimano Europe site

>
> Nope, I'm in Canada so I gravitated toward the US site. I'll be sure to
> check the EU site out.
>
> Thanks for the thoughtful responses, Werehatrack and Jeff. It was a
> little intimidating for this newbie to find that there are like 7 types
> of sprocket sold by a single company! To this engineer, it seems
> logical to have one low-weight model and one strong model - the others
> just look like marketing to me.


Yeah, but we want light AND strong. And that's the entry point for the
marketers. Especially when we want pretty, too.

--
Ted Bennett
 
"Ted Bennett" < wrote
>
> Yeah, but we want light AND strong.


You can get light, strong and cheap.
Choose any two.

I wish I knew who first said that
 
On Tue, 02 May 2006 12:02:32 +0200, POHB <[email protected]>
wrote:

> "Ted Bennett" < wrote
>>
>> Yeah, but we want light AND strong.

>
> You can get light, strong and cheap.
> Choose any two.
>
> I wish I knew who first said that
>
>



"Light, Strong, Cheap - Pick Two!"
Mr. Bontrager
 
lasr wrote:
> On Tue, 02 May 2006 12:02:32 +0200, POHB <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > "Ted Bennett" < wrote
> >>
> >> Yeah, but we want light AND strong.

> >
> > You can get light, strong and cheap.
> > Choose any two.
> >
> > I wish I knew who first said that
> >

>
> "Light, Strong, Cheap - Pick Two!"
> Mr. Bontrager


Probably related to the engineering axiom:
"Cheap, Fast, Right- Pick Two."

Jeff
 

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