TDF dominance

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Xzzy, Jun 13, 2003.

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  1. Xzzy

    Xzzy Guest

    I ran across http://www.torelli.com/raceinfo/tdf/tdfindex.shtml and saw that most TDF winners are
    French. Subtracting streaks of French wins ( the TDF is primarily a French race ), that leaves only
    Indurain and Armstrong until back in the early 70's with Merckx's 4 wins in the 'modern' times.

    Beginning in 1986, LeMond and Armstrong combined for 7 TDF wins in the past 17 years. Those
    numbers are very spectacular! One can only wonder what would have happened if LeMond had not
    been shot.

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
     
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  2. Darren S.

    Darren S. Guest

    "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I ran across http://www.torelli.com/raceinfo/tdf/tdfindex.shtml and
    saw
    > that most TDF winners are French. Subtracting streaks of French wins (
    the
    > TDF is primarily a French race ), that leaves only Indurain and Armstrong until back in the early
    > 70's with Merckx's 4 wins in the 'modern' times.
    >
    > Beginning in 1986, LeMond and Armstrong combined for 7 TDF wins in the past 17 years. Those
    > numbers are very spectacular! One can only wonder what would have happened if LeMond had not
    > been shot.

    Weren't Lemonds problems related to muscular dystrophy rather than his accident?

    D.

    > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    >
    >

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  3. lazysegall

    lazysegall New Member

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    You might also want to mention that lemond had the tour won in 1985 as well but he stopped on the road for hinault for a number of reasons (mainly because his french team lied to him).
     
  4. Roger Ramjet

    Roger Ramjet Guest

    Yes, but Lemond did loose a good piece of this lungs to the shotgun pellets.

    BTW Did you ever wonder what the Lemond clan talks about around the table during family gatherings?
    His brother-in-law shot him and Greg also had a big blowout with his dad.

    "Darren S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > I ran across http://www.torelli.com/raceinfo/tdf/tdfindex.shtml and
    > saw
    > > that most TDF winners are French. Subtracting streaks of French wins (
    > the
    > > TDF is primarily a French race ), that leaves only Indurain and
    Armstrong
    > > until back in the early 70's with Merckx's 4 wins in the 'modern' times.
    > >
    > > Beginning in 1986, LeMond and Armstrong combined for 7 TDF wins in
    the
    > > past 17 years. Those numbers are very spectacular! One can only wonder what would have happened
    > > if LeMond had not been shot.
    >
    > Weren't Lemonds problems related to muscular dystrophy rather than his accident?
    >
    > D.
    >
    > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/11/2003
     
  5. "Darren S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > Weren't Lemonds problems related to muscular dystrophy rather than his accident?
    >

    Not in 1987 and 1988.
     
  6. "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Darren S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > Weren't Lemonds problems related to muscular dystrophy rather than his accident?
    > >
    >
    > Not in 1987 and 1988.
    >
    >
    And the affliction is muscular myopathy. He's not one of Jerry's Kids.
     
  7. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Darren S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > Weren't Lemonds problems related to muscular dystrophy rather than his accident?
    > >
    >
    > Not in 1987 and 1988.

    Or in any other year, for that matter (Lemond doesn't have muscular dystrophy - in fact, he doesn't
    have any recognized muscle disease at all).

    Andy Coggan
     
  8. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote:
    > You might also want to mention that lemond had the tour won in 1985 as well but he stopped on the
    > road for hinault for a number of reasons (mainly because his french team lied to him).

    Actually it was his friends that gave him the inaccurate splits that let him think the time gap was
    larger than it was. If he'd have listened to his French team he might have realized sooner what a
    bonehead move it was to take Roche away with him.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  9. lazysegall

    lazysegall New Member

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    I think that is absoultely wrong. I was watching road to the tour on OLN (it was on the LeMond Hinault rivalry and it is on my tivo) and it is quite clear that his french team told him to stop from their car. Lemond was arguing pointing up the road. Eventually he agreed to stop. The conversation is reccounted by OLN and it is clear that he was given inacurate splits by his team. Furthermore at the end of the stage LeMond looks distraught. If you have better information on this event I would like to see it.
     
  10. "lazysegall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Bob Schwartz wrote:
    > > lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > You might also want to mention that lemond had the tour won in 1985
    as
    > > > well but he stopped on the road for hinault for a number of reasons (mainly because his
    > > > french team lied to him).
    > > Actually it was his friends that gave him the inaccurate splits that
    let
    > > him think the time gap was larger than it was. If he'd have listened
    to
    > > his French team he might have realized sooner what a bonehead move it was to take Roche away
    > > with him. Bob Schwartz [email protected]
    >
    >
    >
    > I think that is absoultely wrong. I was watching road to the tour on OLN (it was on the LeMond
    > Hinault rivalry and it is on my tivo) and it is quite clear that his french team told him to stop
    > from their car. Lemond was arguing pointing up the road. Eventually he agreed to stop. The
    > conversation is reccounted by OLN

    Did OLN even exist in 1985?
     
  11. xzzy <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws [email protected]
    > I ran across http://www.torelli.com/raceinfo/tdf/tdfindex.shtml and
    saw
    > that most TDF winners are French. Subtracting streaks of French wins
    the
    > TDF is primarily a French race ), that leaves only Indurain and Armstrong until back in the early
    > 70's with Merckx's 4 wins in the 'modern' times.
    >
    > Beginning in 1986, LeMond and Armstrong combined for 7 TDF wins in the past 17 years. Those
    > numbers are very spectacular! One can only wonder what would have happened if LeMond had not
    > been shot.

    I always wonder what the number of Italian wins would have been if there had been no WW II. Quite
    possible that the record of five tours would have been broken before it was even set.

    >
    > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
     
  12. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I think that is absoultely wrong. I was watching road to the tour on OLN (it was on the LeMond
    > Hinault rivalry and it is on my tivo) and it is quite clear that his french team told him to stop
    > from their car. Lemond was arguing pointing up the road. Eventually he agreed to stop. The
    > conversation is reccounted by OLN and it is clear that he was given inacurate splits by his team.
    > Furthermore at the end of the stage LeMond looks distraught. If you have better information on
    > this event I would like to see it.

    Yes, of course. If you saw it on OLN then it absolutely has to be correct since that is an
    unimpeachable source.

    Do a newsgroup google on "Lemond", "Hinault", "Gordis". If Hinault had really been as far back as
    Kent Gordis had told Lemond then his actions would have been correct. But Hinault wasn't, which was
    why his team was correct in stopping him.

    The TV show didn't say that Lemond later apologized to his team after he learned the correct time
    gaps, did it.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  13. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > I think that is absoultely wrong. I was watching road to the tour on OLN (it was on the LeMond
    > > Hinault rivalry and it is on my tivo) and it is quite clear that his french team told him to
    > > stop from their car. Lemond was arguing pointing up the road. Eventually he agreed to stop. The
    > > conversation is reccounted by OLN and it is clear that he was given inacurate splits by his
    > > team. Furthermore at the end of the stage LeMond looks distraught. If you have better
    > > information on this event I would like to see it.
    >
    >
    > Yes, of course. If you saw it on OLN then it absolutely has to be correct since that is an
    > unimpeachable source.
    >
    > Do a newsgroup google on "Lemond", "Hinault", "Gordis". If Hinault had really been as far back as
    > Kent Gordis had told Lemond then his actions would have been correct. But Hinault wasn't, which
    > was why his team was correct in stopping him.
    >
    > The TV show didn't say that Lemond later apologized to his team after he learned the correct time
    > gaps, did it.

    It's too bad that Hildenbrand got chased away from this group.
     
  14. lazysegall

    lazysegall New Member

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    Well first the link that you point to doesn;t work for me. I would like to get one. Second, I never said that OLN was an unimpeachable source. In fact i was responding to someone who just said that I had my events wrong. Yes, OLN is a very new network that only exists because of the emergence of Satellite TV and Digital Cable. Obviously, the station has reasons for hyping great american riders. OLN does, however, show the Giro, Vuelta, Tour, Most of the classics and highlights from many races. Something that OLN reports on cycling might be as accurate as something that Foxnews reports. Likely accurate, but there is probably some bias. Third, I tried to comment using examples of quotes and actions...not just what OLN said. Even given this I was and still am more than willing to admit that I was wrong. I wonder though what sacrafices Hinault was talking about at the end of the 85 tour when he said that he would sacfifice for lemond next year as lemond had for him. Fourth, I am not going to scower the internet to look for info. just give me the link. I did some research and the BBC seems to agree with my version of the events
    Fifth, even if Lemond apologized we do not know how sincere that apology was. In the 86 tour lemond wanted the support of the team and Hinault. It would have been unwise to have a fight through the winter.

    Although I would like to add that it is very hard to know what really happens in cycling. Even in the Hagland Armstrong incident a few days ago no one agrees on what happened.

    I do not mean to be mean or arogant, but at the moment I am still going off the best information that I have.
     
  15. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    A 'newsgroup google' means searching newsgroups at http://groups.google.com

    Chung is on the mark that Bruce Hildenbrand's contributions are missed. So I think the best, most
    concise search would be Lemond, Hinault, Gordis, bhilden.

    http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=Lemond%20Hinault%20Gordis%20bhilden&as_ugroup=rec.bicyc-
    les.racing

    Roche was the main threat to La Vie Claire in 3rd place approx 5 minutes back. So if Lemond's attack
    had been successful they would have gone from 1st and 2nd and a 5 minute cushion to 1st and 3rd with
    about 2 minutes over Roche. Roche was the one that was gaining, Lemond had to stop. He didn't
    understand this because he had been misinformed about Hinault's position.

    But that doesn't make good TV. This is sort of like Goddet fabricating the story about Vietto
    sacrificing his Tour in 1934. The story is much more interesting than the actual event.

    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=vietto+group:rec.bicycles.racing+author:benjo.maso%40chello.nl

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  16. lazysegall

    lazysegall New Member

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    I can see where you are coming from on the story. I feel that you may be correct. Certainly OLN does have reasons for fabricating the story...especially because if builds drama for the 86 tour. I mean Hilenbrand is saying that this is the story that he belives I still wonder why lemond is angry to this day? To be honest I don;t think that it is an open and shut case, but i also do not think that we should take what hillenbrand "belives" to be gospel. I also think that it is important to note that hillenbrand notes that he thinks that lemond showed poor cycling ettiquete. Furthermore Hillenbrand notes that the information he heard about gordis was second hand (in the first post after a search he does not say this, but in the second he does). On the other hand I have nothing to contradict logical explanations of events. Given that, however, it was probably incorrect of me to say that Lemond was robbed of the 85 tour. The more correct thing to say was the lemond if he had been riding for himself would have been a very serious challenger in 1985. I also still wonder what sacraficing hinault was talking about? Regardlessly, i do thank you for pointing out the complexity of an issue that I thought was rather simple.
     
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