Team Slipstream or should we say Team sh**stream as in bull****stream?

[Crankyfeet]

wrong.

You sell your riders a vision.

Every rider who turns up at the startline and is clean, has already won.

The thing that is wrong with Vaughters' program, is he is underpaying his riders. He has no backing, and sound business model.

He needs to get more revenue, quit the benefactor model, and sell his team (re: market them).

They have to be paid, like they would, if everyone in the peloton was clean. So, if Bagstedt is a Paris Roubaix leader and would get on the pdoium every second year, he needs to be getting 300 Euro.

Millar needs to be getting close to a million Euro as a world champion timetrialler, and a rider the equivalent of Moreau in the classification (if he pulled his finger out and rode with effort for classification).

But, Vaughters cannot pay his guys that.

Could he. Sure. They sport is not run as a business. They could be doing alot more than they do. Wins and results are but one part of the function of publicity. They need to sell other services, and more services. I do not mean merchandising.

I think the OP was making a generalization about the future of cycling and doping, not a comment on Slipstream, in the above post. But thunder, I think you sound pretty idealistic to me if you say that cyclists have already won when they start clean. Who knows they're clean? Let's say Menchov was clean at the last TdF. How did he look compared to Contador? Did he look clean? Did he feel like a winner? Let's say Valverde was clean. How did he look and feel when the Chicken passed him in the ITT?

Also to think that DS's are all going to suddenly get moralistic is a bit naive. It only takes one cheating team to take all the spoils in a clean peleton. When the risk of getting caught is near to zero, why look like a pathetic team? You can't go into the media and say its because you're the only clean team. All the teams will say they're clean.

The only way this is going to stop is if they bring the cavalry in regarding testing and monitoring. Then the trust will start to grow, that the other teams aren't cheating.

Problem is the cavalry for testing and monitoring costs a packet, and who really wants to foot the bill? Sponsorship and revenues are dwindling just when costs for dope-testing need to markedly increase.

Also, you sound like you should be running a team yourself. You sound like Slipstream and Vaughters are leaving lots of money on the table. This is about the hardest time to rally money into the sport in recent memory with all of the controversies. But I appreciate that you may have valid points on marketing the team better.

 

[Bro Deal]

Millar needs to be getting close to a million Euro as a world champion timetrialler, and a rider the equivalent of Moreau in the classification (if he pulled his finger out and rode with effort for classification).

Huh? I think you are overestimating Millar's value. I thought Millar was getting 800K before he was caught. The Z-man is on the team and he is a better time trialer than Millar is today. There is no way Millar could ever be the equivalent of Moreau. Millar tried riding for GC when he was on the juice in both GTs and shorter stage races. The results were not pretty.

 

[Crankyfeet]

The thing that is wrong with Vaughters' program, is he is underpaying his riders.

Um..you pay them what you need to to get them to sign. Unless you're saying he could get better riders if he payed more.

Or are you saying that they will ride faster if they are paid more? Or be less likely to dope themselves?

 

[thunder]

Huh? I think you are overestimating Millar's value. I thought Millar was getting 800K before he was caught. The Z-man is on the team and he is a better time trialer than Millar is today. There is no way Millar could ever be the equivalent of Moreau. Millar tried riding for GC when he was on the juice in both GTs and shorter stage races. The results were not pretty.

Z man was doped up last year and did not get a win. Got a podium, at the Worlds tho, great ride that.

Millar with Bodrogi and Ullrich and Cancellara, the most talented tters.

Then Rogers. Then DZ. Lets see DZ win another Tour tt.

 

[thunder]

Um..you pay them what you need to to get them to sign. Unless you're saying he could get better riders if he payed more.

Or are you saying that they will ride faster if they are paid more? Or be less likely to dope themselves?

nah, you pay your riders what they are worth.

Part is respect. Instead of screwing your staff, and pressuring your riders for results, you run a stronger business.

Create a performance culture. But do not pressure riders. Give them an opportunity to perform. If you do not pay them what they are worth if all the peloton is clean, then you are immediately skewing your tools to create a clean team. Deterrent and incentive. You pay them for their talent. You create a new business model, where results are secondary, and you can achieve exposure for your sponsor in alternate channels and media.

That is, you win OFF THE BIKE. Create a performance culture on the bike, and give them every opportunity to execute their skills to their potential. Clean potential.

You create a structure where you can compete and get the same revenue, as doping teams which get superior results.

 

[Bro Deal]

Z man was doped up last year and did not get a win. Got a podium, at the Worlds tho, great ride that.

He won the proloque and an ITT in the Dauphine last year. This year he took fifth overall in the Dauphine. It looks like he concentrated on improving his climbing this year.

Without the gear it does not look like he is a match for Cancellara, but he is better than Millar, both as a time trialist and as a GC man.

Then Rogers. Then DZ. Lets see DZ win another Tour tt.

Let's see Millar win one.

 

[thunder]

He won the proloque and an ITT in the Dauphine last year. This year he took fifth overall in the Dauphine. It looks like he concentrated on improving his climbing this year.

Without the gear it does not look like he is a match for Cancellara, but he is better than Millar, both as a time trialist and as a GC man.

Let's see Millar win one.

2001 Futuroscope.

Did not need the wind like DZ neither

 

[Bro Deal]

2001 Futuroscope.

What about it? That was six freaking seasons ago. What does that have to do with how Millar will perform next year?

 

[thunder]

What about it? That was six freaking seasons ago. What does that have to do with how Millar will perform next year?

Millar wont win!

I have my doubts about how he won the Vuelta tt also last year.

I reckoned he may have pulle one out of the fire, if you know what I mean

 

[snood]

Slipstream doctor worked for Floyd Landis in doping case. Will he believe riders are doping or give benefit of doubt?

 

[vanguard]

Vaughters comments on the Allen Lim issue here

also says: "I'm doing my best. I mean you can shoot me down and call me a hypocrite - and I do not have a perfect argument to say you're wrong. However...I'm doing everything in my power to change things. I was asked to take this team on, and I agreed, with the caveat that I would get to do it my way, with testing and a culture that doping was not a part of, and that the pressure to win on demand, from sponsors, would be nil. Doug Ellis asked me to do this project, not vice versa. This isn't some creation that I've formed to deceive people so I can make money."

 

[Crankyfeet]

Bump.

 

[Bro Deal]

Here is a good article about Slipstream.

http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2007/12/slipstream-tentative-cause-for-hope.html

 

[TheDarkLord]

Bump.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Bumped.