Team Telelkom switching over to Giant & Shimano this season



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Daremo <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Mr60percent wrote:
> > Ulrich and Telekom have always represented the pinacle of style with Pinarello, Campag and
> > Adidas (only surpassed when he rode last year with Bianchi - only a rider with Ulrich's style
> > and substance could give Bianchi back its rightful iconic status in the modern era).
>
>
>
> Big Euro-*** comment there ............
>
> Supreme Eruo-*** would have said Colnago, Campy, and Sidi or Carnac ........... not Pinarello and
> Adidas ...........
>
> If you honeslty think Pinarello and Campy are the pinacle of style, you have some serious issues
> ................
>

Are you serious or maybe you just seriously dont know what you're talking about like the rest of
the fat Freds riding around at 16 mph on their team replica Treks with their USPS Nike jersies
(anyone seen that photo of Robin Williams riding with Armstrong at Vason D'Roman during 2002 Tour
restday ?).

Pinarello and Bianchi have a history and legacy that goes back nearly a hundred years. Bianchi has
been riden by Coppi, Gimondi, Argentin, Bugno, Pantani to name but a few. Pinarello immoralized by
Big Mig himself. Both have serious style kudos. Probably the best image of 2003 was Ulrich powering
along in TT position on a Bianchi bike wearing a retro styled celeste blue Bianchi jersey.

But you're right about shoes - Sidi cant be bettered (but DMT come close).
 
[email protected] (Heinz Getzler) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > Cycle sport magazine reported that T-Mobile (AKA Team Telekom) is switching over to Giant
> > > > bikes and Shimano parts. I was a little disturbed to hear this given my dislike for Shimano.
> >
> > I just can't accept compact geometry and Giants. My vision of a Giant is one of Beloki
> > losing it on a sketchy descent, while a Trek negotiates around the crashed Giant, then
> > traveling successfully down the side of hill in the dirt, before it can reach the road
> > again. Sorry.....but that's the image in my head.
>
> Personally I find that compact frames throws off the handling of the bike.

Imagine two bikes, identical geometry (headtube angles, fork rake, effective top tube length, bottom
bracket height, chainstay length, etc...). The only difference is that on one frame, the top tube
and the seat stays connect to the seat tube a bit lower than on the other. Everything else stays the
same, including the rider's position on the bike (accomplished by using a longer seatpost).

Now, exactly how does the compact frame throw off the handling???
 
Originally posted by Mr60percent

Are you serious or maybe you just seriously dont know what you're talking about like the rest of
the fat Freds riding around at 16 mph on their team replica Treks with their USPS Nike jersies
(anyone seen that photo of Robin Williams riding with Armstrong at Vason D'Roman during 2002 Tour
restday ?).

Pinarello and Bianchi have a history and legacy that goes back nearly a hundred years. Bianchi has
been riden by Coppi, Gimondi, Argentin, Bugno, Pantani to name but a few. Pinarello immoralized by
Big Mig himself. Both have serious style kudos. Probably the best image of 2003 was Ulrich powering
along in TT position on a Bianchi bike wearing a retro styled celeste blue Bianchi jersey.

But you're right about shoes - Sidi cant be bettered (but DMT come close).
Click to expand...

Ummmmmmm, read my sig. much???

I prefer Italian steel frames over everything (as well as one being my only bike right now), and was a Cat. 3 racer when I "retired" from racing in '98 because of Architecture school, and later that year getting married. No Fred there ..........

I wouldn't be caught dead on a Trek ........ have hated them since starting to work in a shop in '93 ..........

History, vintage, and legacy are one thing, style is another completely subjective thing ......

MY ultimate TT pic would have to be Rominger powering along on his Mapei Colnago Mater Krono. Perhaps one of the few people out there that put the smack down on your Big Mig. ;)

I think personally that Ullrich IS going to win this year. But the biggest thing that sticks out in my mind from last year is his big goofy face and sagging gut bulging out his jersey as he got smoked by by Mayo and LA on the difinitive mountain stage last year in the TDF. No style about that ................
 
Scott Hendricks wrote:
>
> Imagine two bikes, identical geometry (headtube angles, fork rake, effective top tube length,
> bottom bracket height, chainstay length, etc...). The only difference is that on one frame, the
> top tube and the seat stays connect to the seat tube a bit lower than on the other. Everything
> else stays the same, including the rider's position on the bike (accomplished by using a longer
> seatpost).
>
> Now, exactly how does the compact frame throw off the handling???

Fork rake is measured based on the head tube. For a compact geometry frame the head tube is a
centimeter or two further back. The overall body position is kept the same by increasing the length
of the stem, but your hand position (and your weight) are now in a different position versus the
front axle. For compact geometry your hands are more forward compared to the front axle than with
regular geometry. This will change the handling.

Mark
 
Originally posted by Ewoud Dronkert
Your "sig" is empty, at least on usenet.
Click to expand...

Did not know that, it shows up on my screen ............ I'm on cyclingforums.com, and they have a link to RBR.

My sig. is:

"'00 Torrelli Countach
105 ****, but steel rules the world .... :p"
 
Daremo wrote:
> I [...] was a Cat. 3 racer when I "retired" from racing in '98 because of Architecture school, and
> later that year getting married. No Fred there ..........

Well, that certainly establishes your bona fides.
 
Mark Lancaster <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Scott Hendricks wrote:
> >
> > Imagine two bikes, identical geometry (headtube angles, fork rake, effective top tube length,
> > bottom bracket height, chainstay length, etc...). The only difference is that on one frame, the
> > top tube and the seat stays connect to the seat tube a bit lower than on the other. Everything
> > else stays the same, including the rider's position on the bike (accomplished by using a longer
> > seatpost).
> >
> > Now, exactly how does the compact frame throw off the handling???
>
> Fork rake is measured based on the head tube. For a compact geometry frame the head tube is a
> centimeter or two further back. The overall body position is kept the same by increasing the
> length of the stem, but your hand position (and your weight) are now in a different position
> versus the front axle. For compact geometry your hands are more forward compared to the front axle
> than with regular geometry. This will change the handling.
>
> Mark

Mark,

Wrong. Compact geometry, as the term is used these days, does NOT imply a change in the head tube.
With few exceptions, THE difference between compact and standard geometry is a sloping top tube.
Admittedly, when Giant first introduced their compact geometry road frame, they used a 3 sizes fits
all approach. Few builders still do this.

Regardless, if you look closely at my example, you'll see that my assumptions include no changes in
geometry. As for manufacturers who build both compact and standard frames with the same geometry,
take a look at Dean, Litespeed, Merlin, etc... you'll find that for a given size, the only change
between compact and standard is the slope of the top tube.

Given that, tell me how a sloping top tube changes the handling of a bike?
 
Originally posted by Scott Hendricks
Given that, tell me how a sloping top tube changes the handling of a bike?
Click to expand...

Makes it better since it lowers the center of gravity of the bike itself ...... ;)

Anyone who has done anything with cars or motorcycles knows that lower center of gravity = better handling
 
karlwithak wrote:
>
> I have had one shimano group for 6 years and am now getting the 10 speed. I bet it will still look
> and work great for longer than 6 years. could you imagine riding 6 year old campy? it did not even
> work well when it was new.
>
Most of my Campy gruppo is more than 10 years old, and working just fine.
 
Daremo <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<nHyNb.158469$%[email protected]>...
> Mr60percent wrote:
Pinarello immoralized by Big Mig

Really??

>
> Ummmmmmm, read my sig. much???

No.
>
> I prefer Italian steel frames over everything (as well as one being my only bike right now), and
> was a Cat. 3 racer when I "retired" from racing in '98 because of Architecture school, and later
> that year getting married. No Fred there ..........
>
> I wouldn't be caught dead on a Trek ........ have hated them since starting to work in a shop in
> '93 ..........
>
> History, vintage, and legacy are one thing, style is another completely subjective thing ......
>
> MY ultimate TT pic would have to be Rominger powering along on his Mapei Colnago Mater Krono.
> Perhaps one of the few people out there that put the smack down on your Big Mig. ;)
>
> I think personally that Ullrich IS going to win this year. But the biggest thing that sticks out
> in my mind from last year is his big goofy face and sagging gut bulging out his jersey as he got
> smoked by by Mayo and LA on the difinitive mountain stage last year in the TDF. No style about
> that ................
>
>
>
> --
 
>
> Ummmmmmm, read my sig. much???
>
> I prefer Italian steel frames over everything (as well as one being my only bike right now), and
> was a Cat. 3 racer when I "retired" from racing in '98 because of Architecture school, and later
> that year getting married. No Fred there ..........
>
> I wouldn't be caught dead on a Trek ........ have hated them since starting to work in a shop in
> '93 ..........
>
> History, vintage, and legacy are one thing, style is another completely subjective thing ......
>
> MY ultimate TT pic would have to be Rominger powering along on his Mapei Colnago Mater Krono.
> Perhaps one of the few people out there that put the smack down on your Big Mig. ;)
>
> I think personally that Ullrich IS going to win this year. But the biggest thing that sticks out
> in my mind from last year is his big goofy face and sagging gut bulging out his jersey as he got
> smoked by by Mayo and LA on the difinitive mountain stage last year in the TDF. No style about
> that ................
>
>
>
> --

Sagging gut? Were you watching the same Tour that the rest of us were? Ullrich was one crash in the
last TT away from possibly winning the TDF this year. A good battle down to the end. I didn't see a
sagging gut on Ullrich, I saw a man ready to roll.

Style is another thing. Celeste green or blue or whatever color it is is ugly. And how did those
other bikes become part of history and legacy? They were ridden by champions over the years. Just
because Trek is a relative newcomer to the Euro peloton doesn't make it a bad bike at all. I think
one of their best marketing ploys has been to say that the US Postal team rides the same bike that
you can purchase at your local bike shop. It's kind of like replica jerseys for lard ass football
fans. Market to the fan base, get them to buy your product, and you could have a successful
business. Last time I checked, Trek was in business to make money, and they are probably one of the
best known if not the best known bike companies in the USA right now almost soley because of Lance's
5 consecutive victories in the TDF. If that sells them some more bikes and frames, good for them.
Doesn't mean you have to ride one, or begrudge anyone else that does. So get off of your high horse
and admit that Trek is a decent bike that lots of people seem to like, even if they are Freds.

With that stated, Lance takes #6 this July by over 4 minutes. You heard it here first. I'd rather
see Jan win, but Lance will be on fire in 2004.

Tom
 
Daremo wrote:

> Scott Hendricks wrote:
> > Given that, tell me how a sloping top tube changes the handling of a bike?
>
>
>
> Makes it better since it lowers the center of gravity of the bike itself ...... ;)
>
> Anyone who has done anything with cars or motorcycles knows that lower center of gravity = better
> handling
>
>

Not always - Honda messed up with its 1984 NSR500 GP bike, by putting the center of gravity too low
(by mounting the gas tank below the engine). This affected weight transfer and corner entry by
countersteering, as well as fore-aft weight transfer. So, especially on 2-wheel machines which have
to countersteer, a low center of gravity can actually be a bad thing.

A higher center of gravity actually contributes to stability for a two-wheeled lean-steering
vehicle, such as a bike, counterintuitive as it may seem. Think of balancing a broom by the end of
its handle (high
CG), as opposed to a pencil. The trick is to find a balance between high CG, with high stability
but slow transfer of weight (slow handling) with low CG and low stability but fast transfer of
weight (fast, "skittish" handling). A balance needs to be struck that is appropriate for human
reaction rates.

Do some searches in Rec.bicycles.tech, using the search phrases "jobst" and "center of gravity"
and "broom" (as in balancing a broom on its end), and you may be able to find some threads that
discuss this phenomenon. Jobst does a much better job of explaining it than I do. Here are 2
applicable results:

//groups.google.com/groups?q=%22center+of+gravity%22+broom+group:rec.bicycles.tech&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&group=rec.bicycles.tech&selm=f0EC7.17548%24e55.3891970%40typhoon.ne.mediaone.net&rnum=1 http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-
1&q=%22center+of+gravity%22+broom&meta=group%3Drec.bicycles.tech

Of course, in response to the Compact bike issue, the change in CG caused by the relocation of the
tube is at best a 3rd order effect, less applicable to CG calculations than whether you wore a short-
or long-sleeved jersey.
 
Michael Zaharis wrote:
> Not always - Honda messed up with its 1984 NSR500 GP bike, by putting the center of gravity too
> low (by mounting the gas tank below the engine). This affected weight transfer and corner entry by
> countersteering, as well as fore-aft weight transfer. So, especially on 2-wheel machines which
> have to countersteer, a low center of gravity can actually be a bad thing.
>
> A higher center of gravity actually contributes to stability for a two-wheeled lean-steering
> vehicle, such as a bike, counterintuitive as it may seem. Think of balancing a broom by the end of
> its handle (high
> CG), as opposed to a pencil. The trick is to find a balance between high CG, with high stability
> but slow transfer of weight (slow handling) with low CG and low stability but fast transfer of
> weight (fast, "skittish" handling). A balance needs to be struck that is appropriate for human
> reaction rates.
>
> Do some searches in Rec.bicycles.tech, using the search phrases "jobst" and "center of gravity"
> and "broom" (as in balancing a broom on its end), and you may be able to find some threads that
> discuss this phenomenon. Jobst does a much better job of explaining it than I do. Here are 2
> applicable results:
>
> groups.google.com/groups?q=%22center+of+gravity%22+broom+group:rec.bicycles.tech&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
> 8&group=rec.bicycles.tech&selm=f0EC7.17548%24e55.3891970%40typhoon.ne.mediaone.net&rnum=1
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-
> 1&q=%22center+of+gravity%22+broom&meta=group%3Drec.bicycles.tech
>
>
> Of course, in response to the Compact bike issue, the change in CG caused by the relocation of the
> tube is at best a 3rd order effect, less applicable to CG calculations than whether you wore a short-
> or long-sleeved jersey.
>

Sorry - here's the second applicable result://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22center+of+gravity%22+broom+group:rec.bicycles.tech&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&group=rec.bicycles.tech&selm=RmuE9.50815%24Ik.1365788%40typhoon.sonic.net&rnum=2
 
[email protected] (mr60percent) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> ... the rest of the fat Freds riding around at 16 mph on their team replica Treks with their USPS
> Nike jersies (anyone seen that photo of Robin Williams riding with Armstrong at Vason D'Roman
> during 2002 Tour restday ?).
>

Which one is the Fat Fred in USPS Nike jersey ? http://tinyurl.com/2wx9t
 
Daremo <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]>...
> Scott Hendricks wrote:
> > Given that, tell me how a sloping top tube changes the handling of a bike?
>
>
>
> Makes it better since it lowers the center of gravity of the bike itself ...... ;)
>
> Anyone who has done anything with cars or motorcycles knows that lower center of gravity = better
> handling
>

riiight... dropping the trailing edge of the top tube by a few centimeters changes the center of
gravity... good one.
 
Daramatic lack of sense of humor on this board compared to others I used to go to .............
 
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