Teams Implicated Thus Far



A

Allez1

Guest
Please correct me if I've made an error here as this is off the top of my
head after a hectic day.

Phonak: Sevilla (and by inference Hamilton and Perez)
Liberty Seguros: Saiz, which is to say the team?
T-Mobile: Sevilla from Phonak, Botero from Kelme, Jan with Cecchini?
Kelme: Botero, Jesus Manzano
CSC: Basso? Linked to Cecchini and reported (unconfirmed) to have a unit in
the Madrid freezer.

And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and
Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our
sport is dying a very public death.
 
B

Bob Schwartz

Guest
Allez1 wrote:
> And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and
> Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our
> sport is dying a very public death.


What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in
the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year
(at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to
test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's
popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport
is on life support.

When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself
if it looks like the sport is dying.

Bob Schwartz
 
C

Calogero Carlucci

Guest
Well said.


"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Allez1 wrote:
>> And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S.
>> and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines?
>> IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.

>
> What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in
> the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year
> (at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to
> test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's
> popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport
> is on life support.
>
> When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself
> if it looks like the sport is dying.
>
> Bob Schwartz
 
H

Howard Kveck

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Allez1 wrote:
> > And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and
> > Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO,
> > our
> > sport is dying a very public death.

>
> What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in
> the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year
> (at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to
> test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's
> popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport
> is on life support.
>
> When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself
> if it looks like the sport is dying.
>
> Bob Schwartz


Just don't compare it to a pre-Katrina New Orleans wake. But that's a great point.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
Z

Zak

Guest
Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping
scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation
decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice
such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to
become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which
used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You
might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
 
B

billb

Guest
Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams,
lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as
a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros)
Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are
at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with
which they cause change.
Best,
Bill Black

Zak wrote:
> Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping
> scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation
> decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice
> such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to
> become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which
> used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You
> might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 31 May 2006 02:32:14 -0700, "billb" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams,
>lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as
>a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros)
>Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are
>at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with
>which they cause change.


Plus USPS pulled out.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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A

Allez1

Guest
"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Allez1 wrote:
>> And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S.
>> and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines?
>> IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.

>
> What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in
> the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year
> (at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to
> test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's
> popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport
> is on life support.
>
> When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself
> if it looks like the sport is dying.


Ever attended an Irish wake? Looks quite similar except the drinking is
done in the kitchen and not out of doors.




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T

Tim Lines

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 31 May 2006 02:32:14 -0700, "billb" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams,
>>lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as
>>a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros)
>>Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are
>>at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with
>>which they cause change.

>
>
> Plus USPS pulled out.
>


Things REALLY started going downhill when Motorola left.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
Zak wrote:
> Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping
> scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation
> decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice
> such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to
> become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which
> used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You
> might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.


Come on Zak - are you telling us that Soccer is a clean sport?
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
billb wrote:
> Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams,
> lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as
> a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros)
> Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are
> at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with
> which they cause change.


Name one sponsor in Pro Tour cycling that has been in the sport more
than 10 years.

Lotto, Cofidis, Rabobank. Anyone else?

Sponsors come and go but cycling goes on. As long as there are two guys
with bikes there will be racing.
 
Hello Allez1:
Worst case for reputations scenario would be:
The "clean" teams were sending their riders for private testing to make
sure they were "clean" to the hematologists who were doing the "dirty"
work for the "dirty" teams/riders. After all, who'd have the most
experience in TESTING blood to see that it met UCI/WADA guidelines as a
quality control measure?

Robert Leone [email protected]


Allez1 wrote:
> Please correct me if I've made an error here as this is off the top of my
> head after a hectic day.
>
> Phonak: Sevilla (and by inference Hamilton and Perez)
> Liberty Seguros: Saiz, which is to say the team?
> T-Mobile: Sevilla from Phonak, Botero from Kelme, Jan with Cecchini?
> Kelme: Botero, Jesus Manzano
> CSC: Basso? Linked to Cecchini and reported (unconfirmed) to have a unit in
> the Madrid freezer.
>
> And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and
> Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our
> sport is dying a very public death.
 
Z

Zak

Guest
Tom Kunich a écrit :

> Come on Zak - are you telling us that Soccer is a clean sport?


That was not my point Tom. If I read properly there are also some
Spanish soccer players suspected through this new scandal. Juventus
club doctor was convicted in a doping leaving the players off the hook
but not off suspicions. Since rugby - the other popular sport - became
a pro sport, some players develop a huge mass of muscles in a few
months.

We can assume than most pro sports are far from clean. And maybe
cycling gets the bad end of the stick. Still in the eye of the public
(at least in France), because of the number of cases, because of the
media coverage, cycling = doping. As unfair as it seems, soccer isn't.
Cycling here is dead as competitive sport. But don't worry there still
will be crowds along the roads of the TDF.
 
B

B. Lafferty

Guest
"Zak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping
> scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation
> decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice
> such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to
> become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which
> used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You
> might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
>


Just wait. A French rider may well win the Tour this year. ;-)
 
D

Donald Munro

Guest
Tom Kunich wrote:

> Lotto, Cofidis, Rabobank. Anyone else?


Telekom can't be to far away from 10 years by now.
 
C

Curtis L. Russell

Guest
On Wed, 31 May 2006 20:03:59 +0200, Donald Munro
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> Lotto, Cofidis, Rabobank. Anyone else?

>
>Telekom can't be to far away from 10 years by now.


We'll have to work on the technical aspects - when did they change to
T-Mobile and can we call it a continuation? I'm easy, but some people
on the list are real hard asses.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
S

Simon Brooke

Guest
in message <R%[email protected]>, B.
Lafferty ('[email protected]') wrote:

> "Zak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping
>> scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation
>> decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice
>> such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant
>> to become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country
>> which used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor.
>> You might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in
>> France.

>
> Just wait. A French rider may well win the Tour this year. ;-)


Allors! C'est un cochon de vol!

I mean, I've a soft spot for Thomas Voeckler, but come on!

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'You cannot put "The Internet" into the Recycle Bin.'
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
Zak wrote:
> Tom Kunich a écrit :
>
> > Come on Zak - are you telling us that Soccer is a clean sport?

>
> That was not my point Tom. If I read properly there are also some
> Spanish soccer players suspected through this new scandal. Juventus
> club doctor was convicted in a doping leaving the players off the hook
> but not off suspicions. Since rugby - the other popular sport - became
> a pro sport, some players develop a huge mass of muscles in a few
> months.
>
> We can assume than most pro sports are far from clean. And maybe
> cycling gets the bad end of the stick. Still in the eye of the public
> (at least in France), because of the number of cases, because of the
> media coverage, cycling = doping. As unfair as it seems, soccer isn't.
> Cycling here is dead as competitive sport. But don't worry there still
> will be crowds along the roads of the TDF.


When I was over in France in 2000, I didn't see a single recreational
cyclist on the road until the day before the Paris stage. I was talking
to a man from Britany who said that cycling was still popular there.

Why would parents be worried about bicycling when every stinking little
village has some 13 year old riding a motor bike from one end of town
to the other in a continuous full throttle sprint all day long? (grin)
I noticed that didn't seem to bother any of the town fathers.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> Hello Allez1:
> Worst case for reputations scenario would be:
> The "clean" teams were sending their riders for private testing to make
> sure they were "clean" to the hematologists who were doing the "dirty"
> work for the "dirty" teams/riders. After all, who'd have the most
> experience in TESTING blood to see that it met UCI/WADA guidelines as a
> quality control measure?


That is a point. Probably entirely incorrect but certainly a
possibility. Remember so many riders were testing right on the very
edge of legal hematocrit that it isn't too far out to suspect that
everyone was riding the line including those people who would NATURALLY
exceed the hematocrit but weren't able to document it well enough for
the UCI.

My normal hematocrit, living at sea level is 48%-49%. What would it be
if I lived in Crested Butte, CO, at 9200 feet (2800 meters)?
 
R

Robert Chung

Guest
Tom Kunich wrote:

> When I was over in France in 2000, I didn't see a single recreational
> cyclist on the road until the day before the Paris stage.


That's cuz they saw you first.