Telekom Mobile "shitty management/cyclist hierarchy system"

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by limerickman, Feb 8, 2006.

  1. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Our resident all round cycling fan - Musette - made the following statement
    with respect to Telekom Mobile : quote "(Mobile) has shitty management/cyclist hierarchy system".

    Having read her latest profound insight, I took a look at Mobiles record in the
    level one category of tours, stage races and one days races.

    Judge for yourselves if Telekom Mobiles record is as bad as our resident
    analyst claims :


    Tour De France :


    1996 : 1st/2nd on GC : Winner Points competition : Winner best young rider
    5 stage wins.

    1997 : 1st on GC, one rider in top 10 GC, Winner Points competition : Winner best young rider, Winner Team Competition.

    1998 : 2nd on GC, two riders in top 10 GC, Winner Points competition :
    Winner best young rider, 4 stage wins.

    1999 : 1 stage win, Winner Points competition :

    2000 : 2 stage wins, Winner Points competition, two riders in top 10 GC.

    2001 : 4 stage wins, 2nd on GC, Winner Points competition.

    2002 : 1 stage win

    2003 : 1 stage win, one rider in top 10 GC.

    2004 : 2&3rd on GC, Winner Team Competition.

    2005 : 2 riders in Top 10 GC, 3 stage wins, Winner Team Competition.

    Milan-San Remo :


    Won 1997, 1998, 2000 and 2001.

    Tour of Flanders :

    Won 2004

    Ghent Wevelgem :


    Won 2003

    Amstel Gold :

    Won 1997, 2000 and 2003.

    Championship of Zurich :


    Won 2003.

    Paris-Tours :

    Won 2003 and 2005.

    Hew Classics :

    Won 1997 and 2001.

    Paris-Nice :

    Won 2000, 2002 and 2003.

    Pais Vasco :

    Won 2000.

    Dauphine Libere:

    Won 1997 and 1999.

    Tour of Switzerland :

    Won 2003 and 2004

    Vuelta Espana :

    Won 1999

    Tour of Germany :

    Won 1999 and 2001.

    UCI World Rankings :

    1999 4th : 2000 2nd : 2001 2nd : 2002 11th : 2003 3rd : 2004 1st : 2005 6th
     
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  2. lwedge

    lwedge New Member

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    TM has a pretty good record in it's tenure.;)


    Musette said "Shitty"? :D At'a girl !

    In my opinion, this would be just a 'run of the mill' thread without the cast it has. You all make this thread better..... Just leave your guns and knives at the door before you enter.:D

    Lw
     
  3. Capt.Injury

    Capt.Injury New Member

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    Great list Limerick, just it was 2nd and 4th in 2004 TDF, Basso was 3rd (Just a slight correction to your list). Its incredible to think that T-Mobile only missed the podium in the TDF twice since 95, and has had 4 different riders podium for them (Vino, Kloden, Ullrich and Riis) and multiply riders winning races (some teams have close to 80% of there races won by a super sprinter, i.e. Cipollini, Petacchi,).
     
  4. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Thanks Capt : TM have a great record.
     
  5. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    Lim: You need to understand that Mussette is in deep grief that Lance has been without Crowe for a while now and still hasn't called.
    You must understand her pain and be sympathetic to her.
     
  6. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Lucky escape......for Lance!
     
  7. tcklyde

    tcklyde New Member

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    Your list speaks for itself, Lim. Telekom has been one of the premier cycling teams over the last decade and more.

    I would like to emphasize the enormous committment that Erik Zabel made to this record. Of particular note should be his his four wins at Milano-San Remo, six green jerseys (and three Paris-Tours and three points jerseys at the Vuelta and Amstel Gold). Zabel is one of the classiest riders in the peloton and, in my opinion, every bit as impressive a rider as JU.

    Despite this record, there clearly has been some miscommunication between Godefroot and JU and some poorly made choices during the TdF. Furthermore, the team has struggled to find a balance between Ullrich and Zabel at the TdF and to put together a successful and integrated strategy for taking on Armstrong at the TdF.

    Overall, though, Telekom's record is proof positive of a strong team.
     
  8. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I agree.
    I think Zabel has been the best rider in the peloton - bar none.
    And he's still competing and challenging (he finished second in todays opening stage of the Mediterranean Tour).
    The man is 35 years old.

    But getting back to TM : their record of success puts them up in the ONCE league of the early 1990's, and in the Renault category of the 1980's.
    Teams would give their "eye teeth" for even half of Mobiles palmares.
     
  9. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    The Internet is full of strange people.... how do we know Mussette is in fact a 'she' and not a 'he' pretending to be a 'she' for kicks ?
     
  10. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    I was actually drawn into believeing this by other posters that have had previous experience with Mussette.
    I have comtemplated this possibility myself.
    Yes the internet is filled with strange personalities,however it keeps them off the street for a time.
    We should count this as a small blessing.
     
  11. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    Zabel is a great rider, i believe he is the rider with most wins who is still active.

    T-Mobile has a great team, with great riders who achieved a lot. The management in the Godefroot years wasn't always very good. Godefroot made a lot of mistakes in his carreer as a manager. Peter Winnen told me once, as he was at Ijsboerke - Godefroot was the manager - Godefroot told him to hold back at Alpe d' Huez, because if he wanted to win the tour he shouldn't give it all. Winnen didn't listen, he knew he was a lousy rider at ITT's and had no chance to win the tour. He gave it all, won the stage to Alpe d' Huez and got third in the overall of the TDF. It was the biggest succes in his carreer.

    Godefroot also made a mistake with all the problems between him and Rudy Pevenage, it wasn't good for Ullrich and if you want your team to win the tour you have to create (if you are a good manager) the best surrounding for the athletes to make him able to bring the best results. I don't think that Ullrich would have beaten Lance if Pevenage had been inside the team but still it's not very good management. It was a personal conflict between Godefroot and Pevenage. There was a powerstruggle between the Zabel camp and the Ullrich camp and Godefroot wasn't able to bring the two camps together (which, i have to admit was very difficult..).

    On the other hand, yes the list of achievements is very impressive and maybe it's impossible to do the job without this kind of mistakes...

    Godefroot certanly had big problems, it was the sponsor, T-Mobile, that wanted Zabel to win stages in the Tour and Ullrich to win the overall. The company used both riders in their marketing strategy. Godefroot had to take both of them to the tour and couldn't let the team ride for Ullrich or Zabel. Last year this was changed by Ludwig.

    By the way Zabels son is riding to.... who knows..... (saw a proud daddy last year watching when his son got third in the overall of the season in a serie of races in Dortmund )
     
  12. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Yes, the dichotomy in the Mobile camp was always an issue.
    It was well known that there were differences between the Ullrich camp and the Zabel camp.
    Those differences were not apparent when Mobile had the likes of Udo Bolts and Bjarne Riis in their squad.
    These guys were able to get the team to put all differences aside.
    Bolts and Riis were strong characters.
    That's why Mobile were so successful between 1995-1999.

    There was a clearout of the olders riders around 1999/2000.
    Subsequently, Zabel and Ullrich then became the senior professionals and their
    differences influenced the entire squad - whereby you had two different squads in the one team.

    And as you correctly point out both Ullrich and Zabel were marketed by Mobile
    across Germany, therefore the team had no choice but to try to support both
    camps probably to the deteriment of the overall team performance.
     
  13. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    You're right and i think it was agreat mistake to let Bölts go, he would have been an important player in the team management (Bölts is now at gerolsteiner). In a few weeks, i believe at end of march or the beginning of april, Udo Bölts will publish a book, i will post it here if he writes about the Zabel/Ullrich camp issue...
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I appreciate that CH : any information from a book by Bolts would be great.
    (it doesn't have to be confined to Zabel/Ullrich)

    I always respected Udo : he was a superb domestique and a great cyclist in his own right
     
  15. thebluetrain

    thebluetrain New Member

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    This would have been deleted if I had posted this.:rolleyes:
     
  16. lwedge

    lwedge New Member

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    Just don't post a cartoon picture of Ulle with a helmet shaped like a bomb and you'll be fine.
     
  17. thebluetrain

    thebluetrain New Member

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    LOL, that might cause a riot or get some embassy's burned. :D
     
  18. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    With a Swastica on it maybe.
     
  19. barnstorm

    barnstorm New Member

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    Lim

    I get the record and have tracked all of those wins as they happened but I still think Tmo has had serious problems as a team. They have consistently gotten Ullrich to the tour underprepared and without a clear plan to support him, they have had amazing riders be just terrible during their tenure there (Il Falco, Julich, Botero to name a few). All of which got back to form when they left for new teams. Their silly performances this year in the mts with ullrich and Kloden chasing down Vinos attacks was downright comical. The Pevenage/Godefroot thing is ridiculous. It would be like Bruyneel and Carmichael refusing to collaborate or be around each other in any way. Would not have worked and it didn't with the Germans.

    All in all, Tmo has great riders, they sign many of the best. But they do not seem to get the most out of them. They have gotten results with good riders such as Vino and Zabel. Zabel was very well supported by the team during his green jersey runs. I could say a lot of good things about the riders and the team too but the things I described above frustrate the crap out of me and they are hard to deny.

    On a more cynical angle, I sometimes wonder if they are the only clean team in the peloton and that's why the results play out like they do.

    I hope the management changes this year pave the way for Ullrich to kick ass in the tour. I am glad to see Zabel is doing so well at Milram. I wish Vino the best with Saiz who seems clinically unstable but has a very talented team around him.
     
  20. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Barn,

    Agreed the Pevenage/Goodefroot civil war was madness.
    I suppose the fact that they were rivals as cyclists didn't help but the fallout
    after Ullrich was suspended by Telekom never really rectified itself.
    Jan places great faith in Pevenage - I suppose he's a father figure to Jan.

    In the Bianchi season (2003) Pevenage was responsible for team tactics and he seemed to get a weak team to work for Jan (the behind the scenes "life with Bianchi" is great - it shows Pevenage really working closely with Jan Ullrich).
    The evening meal after Jan beating LA in the ITT showed Pevenage ordering a toast to JU because he (JU) put in a great effort that day.

    As regards Saiz being unstable - I couldn't possibly comment.
    Except to say Manola Siaz does have a volcanic temperment
     
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